The piece I wrote on this topic Monday is now on the CSM website.
As JWN readers might guess, I had a lot more I wanted to say about this subject. I also wanted to include a little paragraph about Jimmy Carter’s great role. But that 800-word limit is deadly.
Maybe later today I’ll have a bit of energy left to expand on some of the arguments in the piece, here on JWN. But meantime, go read it; link to it on your blogs; and let’s discuss the arguments it makes, here on JWN with our usual courtesy.
This topic needs a lot more exposure and discussion than it’s gotten within the US until now.
22 thoughts on “Me in the CSM, on bringing in Hamas”
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Naive. Gullible. Pathetic.
Most egregious is your desire that Hamas change its most fundamental policies.
Hamas has thrown an insolvable monkey wrench in Western scheming to forge a Palestinian state. It may be fair to say that Hamas has now simply sat back to enjoy the fireworks, leveraging the human costs of its policies on its own population to force a collapse of the Western position – a collapse you are flirting with, if not outright endorsing.
Indeed, the entire premise for this analysis – that the challenge of Hamas must be “solved”, demonstrates the arrogance of Western power.
Hamas legitimately represents large swaths of Palestinian polity that refuse – at all costs – to accept a Jewish State of Israel. To think that the Palestinians can be coerced or bribed from this path through carrots and sticks – the way one seduces a donkey – smacks of less than righteous tendencies, and is certainly no foundation for peace.
thank you helena!
You are obviously a naive tool for the Islamic murderers. Fools like you only wish to destroy Israel — but you will not succeed.
Helena, – please – ban this person called “mark” – he broke the rules of courtesy – he is a fresh, arrogant, full of hutzpah, hazbarista, who will learn in due time to be a bit more humble…
Today Hamas, tomorrow Al Qaeda.
PS: Koala2, you sound so childish asking the teacher to punish somebody you disagree with. BTW, wake up, nobody knows who Mark is anymore than they know who Koala2 is. There is no way of preventing that person from writing again without losing the valuable contributions of all other unidentified posters. Deal with diverse opinions and tones,
Facts as one likes them. Or no one is as good, honest and moral as we. Or memories….trala…la.
Was the New York Times lying when it reported that the Irgun Zvi Lumi and Stern Gangs were major contributors in murdering, pillaging and the expelling of over half a million Palestenians during the “creation of Israel” in 1947/48?
What if any are the differences between say the above mentioned and the existance and policies of say Hamas, and Hezbulla?
Anger and intolerance are the enemies of correctness. And that, at least to this reader is what Ms. Cobban strives for.
Public relations or no public relations, Israel is not and has never been a Jewish state, and is becoming less of one daily. Most heartening, despite the ongoing ethnic cleansing effort.
Recheck your demographics. Jewish birth rates are quickly catching up, and in some cases eclipsing falling Palestinian birth rates, particularly in Israel and the West Bank. That, combined with Arab migration, means Israel is getting more Jewish, as it has since the days of the Yeshuv.
Titus, you are entitled to your opinions, but not to defend someone who breaks the rules of the conversation on this blog (remember – be courtous, to the point) – I asked Helena to do what she did to JES some time ago after his uncalled for nasty name calling. And you, Titus, are guilty of being a ‘bully’ in the schoolyard, if you compare Helena’s blog to school and her to a teacher… You should clean up your act – Calling Helena Cobban a fool is not defensible and you know it, so stop defending it. It is childish on your and mark’s part to claim a moral high ground, that is what is called ‘chutzpah’ isn’t it?
Oh Koala, stop whining and get a life!
Omop,
Frankly, I don’t know what you are going on about.
You start out with the following:
Was the New York Times lying when it reported that the Irgun Zvi Lumi and Stern Gangs were major contributors in murdering, pillaging and the expelling of over half a million Palestenians during the “creation of Israel” in 1947/48?
Were they major contributors? I don’t know. Certainly not by their numbers (LEHI had a few hundred, IZL a few thousand; but the Haganah and Palmach had tens of thousands). And then there’s the matter of whether or not you want to accept the historical veracity of tokhnit dalet. If you do, then they were very minor contributors.
You then go on to ask:
What if any are the differences between say the above mentioned and the existance and policies of say Hamas, and Hezbulla?
However, the historical facts are that no one at the time was even asking that either IZL or LEHI be included in negotiations – least of all the Yishuv leadership who, shortly after consolidating all the militias under one command bombarded the IZL’s ship, Altelena.
I have to admit that I had a good laugh thought when I read your last line:
Anger and intolerance are the enemies of correctness. And that, at least to this reader is what Ms. Cobban strives for.
What does Helena strive for in your opinion? For anger and intolerance? Because that’s what you appear to be saying!
It is of course true that Mark’s jejune name-calling completely violated the guidelines here– if he has even read them, or understands or cares about the need for courtesy in pubic discourse. And true, I am under no obligation whatsoever to continue to carry his silly name-calling on the page here.
Otoh, I thought when I first saw it that it really does stand as a fine example of the worst and most counter-productive kind of the behavior that is resorted to by those who want to quash any serious discussion of the important issues I raised in my CSM piece.
Notice that “Mark” offers no positive proposals regarding the complex question of how the rights of all those involved in the Israeli-Palestinian dispute might all be met sufficiently that they can live together in peace and on a basis of human equality. Or regarding the tricky questions of intra-Palestinian reconciliation.
My working assumption, since he offers no proposals is that he doesn’t really care that much about the substance of the post. Only the name-calling (the intent of which, if there is an intent, would seem to be to delegitimize and silence my voice. Ain’t gonna happen, Mark. Deal with it.)
… So now, maybe the adults among us can return to a discussion of the substance?
For what it’s worth, I fully expect to see an increase in flexibility of both Hizballah and Hamas as the mullahs in Iran begin to take stock of the situation. Irrespective of how the revolution turns out – and it certainly appears that they have quelled the demonstrations (quite brutally it appears) for the time being – they now must realized that the population is aware of the fact that they have mismanaged the economy. In other words, they simply cannot support Hamas and Hizballah with hundreds of millions of dollars while trying to sell the Iranian people a load of lies when both the inflation rates and the unemployment rate for those under 25 are well into the double digits.
The regime will most likely do anything to avoid a replay of last week’s events. If this means jettisoning foreign “resistance” fighters, then so be it. And that could translate into increased flexibility.
Ah, yes! The old “Hezbollah and Hamas are puppets of Iran” schtick.
The old “Hezbollah and Hamas are puppets of Iran” schtick.
Truth hurts, old and new alike.
Oh Shirin, how jejune of you. Perhaps you could expand on where exactly you think that these two groups are going to get economic support for their armed struggles and their “humanitarian” (that is, patronage)?
By way of historical comparison in the region, do you happen to remember what happened to the PLO when their benefactors in the Kremlin went belly up in the late 1980s and early 90s?
JES, you really don’t know much about Hamas and Hizbullah, do you? Hamas does the bulk of its routine fundraising in the Palestinian diaspora– mainly from Gulf-based Palestinians– and Hizbullah does most of its from the Lebanese Shiite diaspora.(Did you even know that there IS a substantial Lebanese Shiite diaspora? Do you know where it’s dispersed? Hint: If you said Iran, you’d be wrong.) Hizbullah also gets financial services from banks owned by Lebanese Shiites. (Did you even know there were any?)
Hizbullah and the Lebanese people in general did get some good financial aid from Iran for the rebuilding of Lebanon after your country engaged in the wilfull and quite unjustified destruction of much of its infrastructure in 2006. I imagine one day they might send you a bill for that. For the rebuilding of Gaza after the wilfull and unjustified destruction your country has inflicted there, the problem is not cash, but your country’s maintenance of the quite cruel and inhumane siege against it.
You know what, if you loved justice and humanity as much as you claim to, perhaps you’d do better to spend time organizing your own fellow-citizens to reverse these outrageous policies that your democratically elected government maintains and to get it to act in a more civilized fashion towards your neighbors– rather than spending so much time coming here and trying to score cheap (and often ill-informed) debating points?
Surprise us all, though! Tell us you HAVE indeed undertaken some actions in your country to organize your fellow citizens against the siege of Gaza, against the continued construction of settlements, against the checkpoint system in the West Bank, or against the ongoing demolition of Palestinian homes in Jerusalem and the rest of the West Bank. If you could tell us about any one such action you’ve taken part in, I would treat your contributions here with a LOT more respect.
Well, Helena, you can certainly trade insults on a blog that’s yours!
Let me point out to you that I do know something about how both Hamas and Hizballah raise funds in their respective diasporas. (And yes, I do also know that the bulk Lebanese Shi’ite diaspora is in the Good Ole USA – in fact Fouad Ajami is a member of that diaspora, but I digress.) Perhaps I don’t know as much as you (because you are a bona fide Hizballobyist), but I am aware of the fact that during the 2006 war the vast majority of weapons that Hizballah used were of Iranian origin, and the anti-Ship missile was fired by an Iranian crew. So, yes, I think that the lovely gentleman that you like to call Sheikh Sayed Nasrallah is not sleeping easy these nights.
As far as Hamas is concerned, again, the majority of their weapons come from Iran. This has been documented. Iran also provides Hamas with technical and military training, which has also been documented. I don’t really believe that Hamas has attempted in any way to hide this fact, and I think that you are simply being foolish by denying it.
Finally, the connection between my personal actions and the amount of R-E-S-P-E-C-T with which you treat my contributions here is completely irrelevant. You can try out your positive reinforcements on some of your more impressionable readers. Personally, I don’t have much respect for your comments here in case you haven’t noticed. And, BTW, on the numerous occasions that I have pointed out where you are factually in error (or just trying to score “debating points” as you say), you have simply ignored those comments and moved on.
Your strident insistance that Middle East resistance to Israel should suddenly be compromised because of events in Iran naively ignores the other side of the equation. The largest per capita military budget in the world is probably far more dependent on their American support than its enemies are dependent on Iran.
Unfortunately you may be correct to believe the US government will continue to be less responsive to their own national interest than the Islamic Republic to theirs but that can change suddenly. We have heard the expression, “nobody saw this coming” used far too often in recent months for anyone to have absolute confidence in the status quo.
So, Brian, now it is “Middle East” resistance to Israel? I thought it was “Palestinian” resistance to Israel. Perhaps I could take your argument a bit more seriously if you could explain this difference.
Also, perhaps if you could explain to me what exactly are the US “own national interest”?
JES,
Your first question is surprising since my remarks obviously refer in part to your comments about Hezbollah.
The second is a little more complex since U.S. activity in the region would likely have entailed adventurism whether or not Israel existed. Still, it is hard to imagine a policy which could have impaired American public diplomacy as badly as occurred under the influence of Richard Perle and others who swept aside whatever little gains had been made in pursuit if ME peace and promoted a doctrine of pre-emption.
It is difficult to isolate U.S. diplomatic efforts at the UN vis-à-vis both Iraq and more recently Iran from Israeli influence but in any case what little effectiveness the UN may have had or to what limited extent it may have been a useful tool to the U.S. has long been compromised by decades of cynical use of their veto .
Going back a little earlier, the Arab Oil Embargo in 1973 had a devastating effect on world economies, especially that of the U.S., coming at a time when things were already in a delicate state. To be sure the big oil companies didn’t suffer but most Americans did.
I suppose some in the U.S. would argue that the large-scale military aid to Israel is actually good for business since it results in more sales to Saudi Arabia and Kuwait etc. I wasn’t thinking of those who profit from war when I mentioned America’s interests. Hmm? Maybe I’ve been wrong to equate the interest of Americans with those of the U.S. government … scary.
Your first question is surprising since my remarks obviously refer in part to your comments about Hezbollah.
Actually, your response is surprising to me, as I don’t really understand what Hizballah is resisting!
As far as my second question, I can see by the fragmented nature of your response that you really don’t have any idea what US national interests are. Don’t you think that the Arab states play a part in “public diplomacy” (whatever you mean by that)? And who has is the “useful tool” you’re talking about? Israel? The UN? And why on earth was the 1973 Arab oil embargo Israel’s fault?