The outcome of Israel’s elections may well be the worst possible– worse, even, than a clear victory by Likud. What we have instead, with 99% of the votes now counted, is Likud and Kadima just about tied (Kadime– 28 seats out of the Knesset’s 120, Likud–27 seats) and Lieberman’s fascist Yisrael Beitenu party holding the key swing position with an expected 15 seats.
Labour, as expected, is coming in fourth with 13 seats. The Mizrachi-orthodox party Shas is expected to win 11.
Leiberman is very bad news indeed.
As Ben Lynfield wrote in this December 2006 article for The Nation,
- If Lieberman’s pronouncements are to be taken seriously–and there is no obvious reason they should not be–a Lieberman[-led] government would exclude some Arab citizens from Israel, would expel others who refuse to sign a loyalty-to-Zionism oath, would turn Gaza into Grozny and would execute Arab members of the Knesset who talk to Hamas or mark Israel Independence Day as the anniversary of the displacement of the Palestinians in 1948.
Lieberman immigrated from Moldova to Israel at age 20, in 1978, and currently lives in the West Bank settlement of Nokdim. Exemplifying the racist aggressivity of many voluntary participants in settler-colonialist ventures over the decades he calls for, for example, stripping many Palestinian Arab citizens of Israel of their citizenship.
This policy prescription of his, alone, should send shivers down the back of anyone familiar with the history of Hitler’s Holocaust against the Jews.
In November 2006, he called for the execution of any Arab Knesset member who met with Hamas.
… What happens now, as I understand it, is that Israeli president Shimon Peres should call on the leader of the party he judges easiest able to assemble a 61-member coalition to form a coalition government.
An objective analysis might indicate that Peres should therefore call on Likud leader Binyamin Netanyahu to have the first stab at doing this, since Netanyahu might hope fairly easily to assemble a solid-right coalition. However, Kadima did get one more vote than Likud, and Peres’s sympathies are probably more with Kadima than Likud (though who knows?), so he may well call on Kadima first, instead.
Either way, Lieberman would be a key swing actor.
To me, the results of this Israeli election have two main, complementary story-lines. One is the rise of Leiberman and the continuing solidity of Likud, even after the formation of Kadima, which took in more of Likud’s luminaries than it did of Labour’s: That is, the story of the continued rise of Israel’s Hard Right.
The other story is the continued demise of Israel’s once dominant ‘left’.
The graph on this page of today’s Haaretz shows us that while Labour is down to 13 seats, the more authentically leftist party Meretz is down to 3.
A Likud-Kadima-led coalition is still a possibility. They’d need a few more small parties to make up their government. But who would lead this government, and what policies would it pursue on the all-important peace issue? My guess on these two issues would be Netanyahu as PM and stasis on the peace issue.
It’s not as if the Kadima-led government that’s been in power in recent years has made any notable strides on peace, anyway.
I guess we’ll need to wait a while to learn the reactions from Washington…
Latest from Haaretz: Likud officials on Wednesday rejected the possibility of rotating coalition authority between party leader Benjamin Netanyahu and Kadima Chairwoman Tzipi Livni… Likud members… said there was no chance of such an agreement considering that the right-wing bloc carried 65 seats compared to only 55 for the center-left.
and about that comment from DC, today’s Washington Post has this un-named Obama Administration official “speaking on the condition of anonymity because he was discussing another country’s politics.” (What hogwash — if it was Iran’s internal politics, would the same principle will apply?)
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/02/10/AR2009021003473.html?hpid%3Dartslot&sub=AR
Note too Aaron David Miller’s quoted “succinct appraisal of the election result: “This is like hanging a ‘closed for the season’ sign on any peacemaking for the next year or so.”
I understand the sentiment. Yet that’s also the language of those who think that the US has no leverage over Israel — or that the power of Israel’s lobby makes it impossible to use it….
Alas, those thinking that Netanyahu “knows America’s language” (and will be responsive to it) may also be whistling dixie….. Bibi “speaks American” in order to control it, not to be subject to it.
or so it seems.
Obama is so preoccupied with the economy that he might want to go along with the “closed for the season” sign, just to have the excuse to not worry about this crisis.
The way this election is being discussed reminds me of the way Obama is discussed in the US: the ‘overton window’ regarding what can be discussed politically in America has traveled so far to the right that an Obama, who is well to the right of center, is feted, or hated, as a ‘true progressive’ and ‘socialist’. The absurdity of this is simply invisible to the political class, yet history books will marvel over it. ‘How can they have not seen’, it will be asked in future history classes, ‘ that their entire political and economic system had long since passed the point of no return in a slide towards out and out fascism?’ Why didn’t seemingly rational and intelligent people see this in Nazi Germany and in countless other fascist states? I’d say that the answer is because they didn’t want to see it, couldn’t bare to see it.
Israel is ahead of us on this curve, on this political crash and burn. To speak of Kadima, and Livni, as left of center is just laughable. Livni is a raving fascist. Lieberman is worse? Yeah. I guess.
The kind of thinking that makes out Livni and Obama to be somehow heroes is a political version of the Stockholm Syndrome.
There is no peace to be had at the moment no matter who is in charge of Israel and pretending otherwise will only get people killed – raising expectations that will, rather inevitably, be dashed. When both sides have sorted out where they want to go, then there will be room for discussion.
The Palestenian/Israel Gordin Knot will only loosen when the “global/regional economic setting turns into a semi or final understanding”.
Who is elected and or who is pro or anti “peace” in the ME fades into a blur when one considers that given the economic meltdown in the US bodes ill for the continued $14/16 million US dollars a day everyday of the year going from NYC/DC to Tel Aviv when millions of Americans are unemployed; losing homes, etc,. etc,.
Israelis and their supporters must accept the inevitable. they are still the “new kids” in the block and have to act accordingly.
Whether peace between the Israelis and the Palestenian takes one or five decades the resulting end is writ large for everyone to read and accept.
In the time interim human beings will pay the price in deaths and destruction.
omop,
The subsidies to Israel go almost entirely to purchasing products in the US, most particularly military hardware. So, whether or not deserved by Israel, the main loser in ending such subsidies would be those in the US who lose jobs. The Israelis would turn to other suppliers. So, that is not realistic for the US during this severe economic downturn.
Friedman misses the point. Whether the military budget is spent in the US or elsewhere, money is all fungible. If the US is not subsidizing the Israeli military, then the Israeli government will be forced to make some difficult decisions. Do they take the weapons money from the welfare budget or from the settlements budget or where? Questions that independent nations should always have to ask.
And closing down some of our bloated weapons industry and having them produce useful products is not such a bad idea.
N. Friedman.
Admit this is the first time that I have heard or read that the subsidie to Israel whether or not deserved, if stopped would actually contribute to more unemployment in the US.
Using your premise it follows then that to increase employment in the US, the government should consider a change in policy during this severe economic downturn to not only increase the subsidies to Israel but to increase the number of countries receving subsidies from the US taxpayer in order to maintain a certain levelk of jobs.
Hard to accept that kind of rationale.
omop,
I was not suggesting giving more or less money to Israel. I was merely responding to your specific comment.
The argument I understood you to make you is that in these hard economic times, we can no longer afford to give money to Israel. My point was simply that what you propose would be covered by the saying: bite your nose to spite your face.
In other words, you would be punishing Americans, not Israelis. Israel would get its money from other sources.
A obvious solution to the unemployment solution would be to supply Hamas with ground to air missiles. It would have the additional benefit of accelerating the peace process too.
There really is no end to the political establishment’s accomodations with fascists. Kadima is the ‘maassacre’ party founded by Sharon, the most notorious and powerful thug in modern Israeli politics. As to the ‘left’ Labour party it is headed by the Minister responsible for the Gaza attacks. And Meretz? They also supported the war at least in its initial stages.
The obvious comparison is with the speed with which such people as Haider in Austria and LePen in France were ‘shunned’ often with the lead being taken by Israel. And yet it is patently obvious that in Likud, Kadima, Liebermann’s lot and the anxiously waiting “religious” allies, there is a solid mass of fascist legislators. Therre is nothing new about the Liebermann phenomenon: the treatment of “arabs” by Israel has been that of fascists towards untermenschen for years.
What is happening is that the west is going to have to face up to itself, it was very nice of the Israelis to wear nice liberal masks and pretend to be patient civilised people. It allowed ‘liberals’ in the west to delude themselves about the Empire.
Israel is pursuing racist policies and is governed by fascist parties. Its military exterminate children, employ weapons unanimously banned by international convention, it runs concentration camps and tortures those it detains.
And it does all these things, and much more, (including an illegal nuclear weapons programme) with the complete underwriting of its activities by the US taxpayer, which annually issues it a blamk cheque saying, in effect, “God knows how many bombs you will want to drop this year. Or on whom. You might want to start a world war. But that is hardly our business and we are certainly not going to interfere. Just keep us posted, we wouldn’t want you to run out of ammunition, cluster bombs, white phosphorous or anything else. So whatever you use we will replace.”
Having done this we wonder why they elect fascists.
And it is a bit of a surprise, you might think that they’d go for the sort of respectable politicians who run the Democratic party like Senator Schumer or Rahm Emmanuel. And then you examine their policies and, actually, they do. And then you understand why Kadima is called ‘centre left’and Obama and Hillary are called ‘centre-left’ is because Israel and the United States (dragging the rest of the Empire bahind them) do pursue racist imperialist foregn policies and are ruled by parties barely distinguishable (and then only on the margins) from fascists.
A obvious solution to the unemployment solution would be to supply Hamas with ground to air missiles. It would have the additional benefit of accelerating the peace process too.
There really is no end to the political establishment’s accomodations with fascists. Kadima is the ‘massacre’ party founded by Sharon, the most notorious and powerful thug in modern Israeli politics. As to the ‘left’ Labour party it is headed by the Minister responsible for the Gaza attacks. And Meretz? They also supported the war at least in its initial stages.
The obvious comparison is with the speed with which such people as Haider in Austria and LePen in France were ‘shunned’ often with the lead being taken by Israel. And yet it is patently obvious that in Likud, Kadima, Liebermann’s lot and the anxiously waiting “religious” allies, there is a solid mass of fascist legislators. Therre is nothing new about the Liebermann phenomenon: the treatment of “arabs” by Israel has been that of fascists towards untermenschen for years.
What is happening is that the west is going to have to face up to itself, it was very nice of the Israelis to wear nice liberal masks and pretend to be patient civilised people. It allowed ‘liberals’ in the west to delude themselves about the Empire.
Israel is pursuing racist policies and is governed by fascist parties. Its military exterminate children, employ weapons unanimously banned by international convention, it runs concentration camps and tortures those it detains.
And it does all these things, and much more, (including an illegal nuclear weapons programme) with the complete underwriting of its activities by the US taxpayer, which annually issues it a blamk cheque saying, in effect, “God knows how many bombs you will want to drop this year. Or on whom. You might want to start a world war. But that is hardly our business and we are certainly not going to interfere. Just keep us posted, we wouldn’t want you to run out of ammunition, cluster bombs, white phosphorous or anything else. So whatever you use we will replace.”
Having done this we wonder why they elect fascists.
And it is a bit of a surprise, you might think that they’d go for the sort of respectable politicians who run the Democratic party like Senator Schumer or Rahm Emmanuel. And then you examine their policies and, actually, they do. And then you understand why Kadima is called ‘centre left’and Obama and Hillary are called ‘centre-left’ is because Israel and the United States (dragging the rest of the Empire bahind them) do pursue racist imperialist foregn policies and are ruled by parties barely distinguishable (and then only on the margins) from fascists.
“the treatment of “arabs” by Israel has been that of fascists towards untermenschen for years.”
Make that more than 60 years and you’d be close.
Extraordinary to recall that Kadima/Labor were elected overwhelmingly ONLY 3 YEARS AGO as a post facto endorsement of the pull out from Gaza in 2005 and endorsement of unilaterally shutting down outpost settlements in the West Bank, as a first step in the establishment of the Palestinian state! That was the policy Kadeima and Labor put to the Israel electorate in 2006.
And Likud, the Gaza rejectionists, was decimated in that election! Bibi, it seemed, was politically finished.
Likud and Bibi’s resurrection is solely the result of those 5500 rockets fired at Israel, the tunnelling attack on Israel resulting in the kidnapping of Shalit and Hamas’s steady acquisition of higher grade rockets that can threaten Israeli cities.
Well done Hamas. All your fans here must be so thrilled.
bevin,
With Hamas, we have a group that has a covenant. The covenant, notwithstanding assertions that it will be changed, exists and defines a struggle against Israel as being one determined by force of arms – with the assertion that God opposes Israel’s existence and Jews are eternally evil. Moreover, the covenant rules out any compromise.
For those who live under Hamas rule, the rights of women are reduced severely as are the rights or religious minorities. By way of example of the latter, Christmas bells are no longer played in Gaza a manner that a Muslim might hear it for fear of arousing violent reprisal.
Hamas claims that it would agree to a cease fire with Israel. That is the group’s sole plan for peace. Its leaders indicate that the purpose of any cease fire – including an extended one – is to find a circumstance where it would either or both be better armed and have better diplomatic cover to act.
You may not like the Israelis. But, consider: Hamas offers no solution to the dispute other than bloodshed and occasional truces. And, the life it gives its own people is a step into the past, where women are inferior and where non-Muslims are afforded second class privileges subject to their acknowledgment of the dominant role of Islam. That is no future. And, it is something that is repulsive.
Also consider, since the Israelis clearly have the upper hand in the dispute, what idiocy it is to shoot rockets into Israel. What on Earth did the Hamas expect Israel would do? In other words, Hamas is dangerously impractical and ideological.
Lastly consider that, notwithstanding press reports to the contrary during the recent war, Hamas’s popularity has, as shown in polling conducted by Palestinian Arabs, now fallen precipitously – both in Gaza and in the West Bank. Why? My best guess is that politicians who adopt a self-destructive policy that causes lop-sided losses are not for long appreciated by their subjects. That is a guess but it is consistent with what occurs all over the world.
And, Israel is hardly the only country that has started a war to teach a lesson to a neighboring country that becomes uppity. In fact, most such wars tend to be a lot bloodier. So, in that regard, Hamas got off pretty easy.
bevin,
With Hamas, we have a group that has a covenant. The covenant, notwithstanding assertions that it will be changed, exists and defines a struggle against Israel as being one determined by force of arms – with the assertion that God opposes Israel’s existence and Jews are eternally evil. Moreover, the covenant rules out any compromise.
For those who live under Hamas rule, the rights of women are reduced severely as are the rights or religious minorities. By way of example of the latter, Christmas bells are no longer played in Gaza a manner that a Muslim might hear it for fear of arousing violent reprisal.
Hamas claims that it would agree to a cease fire with Israel. That is the group’s sole plan for peace. Its leaders indicate that the purpose of any cease fire – including an extended one – is to find a circumstance where it would either or both be better armed and have better diplomatic cover to act.
You may not like the Israelis. But, consider: Hamas offers no solution to the dispute other than bloodshed and occasional truces. And, the life it gives its own people is a step into the past, where women are inferior and where non-Muslims are afforded second class privileges subject to their acknowledgment of the dominant role of Islam. That is no future. And, it is something that is repulsive.
Also consider, since the Israelis clearly have the upper hand in the dispute, what idiocy it is to shoot rockets into Israel. What on Earth did the Hamas expect Israel would do? In other words, Hamas is dangerously impractical and ideological.
Lastly consider that, notwithstanding press reports to the contrary during the recent war, Hamas’s popularity has, as shown in polling conducted by Palestinian Arabs, now fallen precipitously – both in Gaza and in the West Bank. Why? My best guess is that politicians who adopt a self-destructive policy that causes lop-sided losses are not for long appreciated by their subjects. That is a guess but it is consistent with what occurs all over the world.
And, Israel is hardly the only country that has started a war to teach a lesson to a neighboring country that becomes uppity. In fact, most such wars tend to be a lot bloodier. So, in that regard, Hamas got off pretty easy.
Oh God, so the Israeli foreign ministry’s “army of bloggers” have now taken up residence here as well. The reason most wars tend to be a lot bloodier is that in most wars both sides are equipped with weapons, which was not the case in Gaza. It’s true that Israel is not the first country to use sophisticated heavy weaponry against an essentially defenceless civilian population, but perhaps you might care to muse about what company you are placing yourself in there. And incidentally, the word “uppity” has unpleasant connotations for people in the United States – although in the circumstances that is probably entirely appropriate.
Oh God, so the Israeli foreign ministry’s “army of bloggers” have now taken up residence here as well. The reason most wars tend to be a lot bloodier is that in most wars both sides are equipped with weapons, which was not the case in Gaza. It’s true that Israel is not the first country to use sophisticated heavy weaponry against an essentially defenceless civilian population, but perhaps you might care to muse about what company you are placing yourself in there. And incidentally, the word “uppity” has unpleasant connotations for people in the United States – although in the circumstances that is probably entirely appropriate.
bernard g,
Your point is not well taken. In the rest of the world, a side that is decisively weaker does not often make the mistake of provoking the other side into fighting. That is boneheaded unless the goal is to garner headlines to influence the foolish and naive. Or, if they mean to provoke a war, they make some preparations to protect their own kin.
However, in all parts of the world, only stupid people shoot rockets into a country without expecting, at some point, a full scale military response. Personally, I am surprised that the Israelis did not respond to the rocket fire some years back.
“Hamas got off pretty easy.”
Oh really! And what about the 410 children and infants murdered by the Israeli military? Did they get off pretty easy? Or are you suggesting that they were all Hamas fighters?
And what about the Samouni family, 100 or so of whom, men, women, children, infants, and elderly, were forced into a single house and then held there while the Iraelis shelled the hell out of it? Did they get off pretty easy? Or are you suggesting that they, too, were all Hamas fighters?
“There really is no end to the political establishment’s accomodations with fascists. Kadima is the ‘maassacre’ party founded by Sharon, the most notorious and powerful thug in modern Israeli politics. As to the ‘left’ Labour party it is headed by the Minister responsible for the Gaza attacks. And Meretz? They also supported the war at least in its initial stages.”
Ah, in Israel the jews are all fascists now. Even the peace movement. But I guess we always knew that?
Shirin,
You quote me out of context. Read what I wrote again and in context. My words were: “And, Israel is hardly the only country that has started a war to teach a lesson to a neighboring country that becomes uppity. In fact, most such wars tend to be a lot bloodier. So, in that regard, Hamas got off pretty easy.” Note the qualifying language “in that regard.”
I was making a comparison with what other countries have done – and without regard to whether children were killed. Obviously, for the dead in any war, it is an awful thing.
Consider, the 1,000 Israelis killed between 2000-2002 by Hamas and Fatah were nearly all civilians – and whole families were wiped out. Are we to be consistent in our outrage, Shirin? Or, is this just politics for you?
Shirin,
You quote me out of context. My words in their entirety: “And, Israel is hardly the only country that has started a war to teach a lesson to a neighboring country that becomes uppity. In fact, most such wars tend to be a lot bloodier. So, in that regard, Hamas got off pretty easy.” Note the qualifying language “in that regard.”
You are, however, certainly correct that the dead grieve – they did not get off easy. That is true in all wars and is why war is a terrible thing. I have no use for war.
But consider also, when Hamas and Fatah killed 1,000 Israelis civilians between 2000 and 2002 – all of these civilians in all instances being intentionally killed, because that was the espoused strategy of both groups -, those who were killed did not get off easy. They too have families who grieve their loss. And, Hamas and Fatah did their share in making the Israelis act as they do.
The same for those fortunately comparatively few on the Israeli side who were in the wrong place when a missile struck – again aimed intentionally at civilians. They did not get off easy. And, their families grieve.
Remember the Ma’alot massacre (in 1974), where 22 Israelis students were massacred while in school. That was on purpose. The killers, by the way, knocked on doors while on their way to the massacre. People named Fortuna and Yosef Cohen answered that door for directions so that they could commit their massacre. The killers then shot and killed them, their 4-year old son Eliahu and wounding their 5-year old daughter Miriam. They shot other innocent civilians on their way to the main massacre.
My point is that the friends of the Palestinian Arabs have a new found discovery of concern for civilians – woman and children. But consider, whole Israeli families have been butchered by Palestinian Arabs. Their families grieve. Those who commit such massacres are seen by Palestinian Arabs as Shahids – martyrs to God – and the massacres are publicly celebrated. Remember also the celebration when the rabbinical students were massacred in their school last year? They also did not get off easy. Their families also grieve – why Palestinian Arabs passed out sweets to celebrate the massacre!!!
So, frankly, the friends of the Palestinian Arabs do not get to waive the hand of righteousness and purity at anyone. The Palestinian Arabs have far too much blood on their hands.
This blog was apparently designated target of the ‘army of bloggers’ of the kamikaze israelis…
But after short “aha” – moment – one can still ferret out reasonable voices in this blog
Oh, I got your context, N. Friedman. By any measure your comment, a standard-issue one uttered multiple times a day by Israel apologists, is appallingly cavalier. It is also fallacious. That “common practice” fallacy popular among teenagers and criminals – “Well, I am not the ONLY one who does stuff like that, a lot of other people do it too, and some of them are worse than I am, so you’re lucky I only killed half your family” – is beyond lame.
In fact, each of your arguments is very old, very familiar, very boring, and makes use of multiple very well-known fallacies that a first-semester student in critical thinking could recognize immediately and tear apart without breaking a sweat.
Oh – and the dead do not grieve.
“In the rest of the world, a side that is decisively weaker does not often make the mistake of provoking the other side into fighting”.
You are obviously unfamiliar with Aesop’s fable about the wolf and the lamb – a bully will always find an excuse to attack.
“However, in all parts of the world, only stupid people shoot rockets into a country without expecting, at some point, a full scale military response”.
And presumably only stupid people would believe that you can expel, rob, massacre, besiege and starve millions of people without some kind of military response. So why your surprise at Palestinian violence?
“Personally, I am surprised that the Israelis did not respond to the rocket fire some years back”.
They “responded” by killing 1,500 people in Gaza between 2005 and the start of the recent massacre. Are Hamas not entitled to “respond” to that?
bernard g,
In 2005, Israel ceded Gaza. The Arab side might have reciprocated by bringing a true end to violence so that negotiations could resume in earnest to deal with the rest of the dispute. That did not happen. Instead, rockets were launched from Gaza. The Israelis foolishly did not respond sufficiently to stop the rockets.
Cut the bull, N. Friedman. You are wasting your time trying to sell that rubbish around here where people are very aware of the facts and reality.
No one who knows the sequence of events believes for a moment that Israel’s 23 day murder and mayhem spree that began De. 27 had anything whatsoever to do with rockets. It had even less to do with rockets than Bush’s invasion of Iraq had to do with WMD’s, or Israel’s long-planned 2006 attack on Lebanon had to do with a couple of captured soldiers.
If the Israeli government really cared about stopping the rockets they would not have guaranteed their resumption by violating the ceasefire that had resulted, according to the Israeli Ministry of Defense, and the right wing Israeli Intelligence and Terrorism Information Center, in a 99% reduction in rocket fire. Additionally, according to these sources none of the small amount of rocket fire during the ceasefire came from Hamas. Even the Ministry of Defense termed the resumption of rocket fire after their ceasefire violations “retaliatory”.
Everyone who has been paying attention knows that the 23 day horror Israel unleashed on Gaza was planned months in advance, and the timing was managed carefully to coincide with the end of the Bush administration and to end before the inauguration of Obama. They were planning the attack on Gaza even as they were negotiating the ceasefire.
The Israeli government knows very well how to stop the rocket fire if they want to, and they know that they will not stop it by continuing to murder and destroy life and hope.
Shirin,
In November of 2008, there were 125 rockets shot into Israel. During the six month cease fire, 329 rockets and mortar shells were fired into Israel.
And, that was during a supposed cease fire. You are right, though, the issue was not merely the firing of rockets and and the digging of tunnels into Israel to take hostages. Rather, it was that the rockets did not cease notwithstanding the cease fire. In other words, it was either the unwillingness or inability of the government in Gaza to abide by its own agreements.
I suppose you will now say, in reply, that Israel did not open Gaza up. Well, that is true, at least in part. But note that the truce called only for Israel to lighten up on restrictions, which it did. According to the Economist: “The two sides agreed to start with three days of calm. If that holds, Israel will allow some construction materials and merchandise into Gaza, slightly easing an economic blockade that it has imposed since Hamas wrested control of the strip.”
In fact, Israel did exactly what it had agreed to do – yet the rockets came anyway and tunnel digging continued. Specifically, the average number of truckloads that were permitted to go into Gaza per month increased by 50 percent over the period before the cease-fire and, further, other items, such as cement, which had earlier been banned, were permitted in. And, in November, Hamas got caught digging a tunnel into Israel, which led to some Palestinian Arabs being killed.
Now, maybe the Israelis should have been more generous. I can imagine arguments both way on this point. But, the view that you espouse, which ignores the rocket fire, the increase in the range and accuracy of the rockets, the digging of tunnels to capture hostages, all meaning that Hamas did not abide by its agreements, is to live in fantasy land which papers over reality.
If you want to be taken seriously, you have to understand each side’s perspective and stop pretending that Palestinian Arabs, and they alone, are innocent of all they do. The fact is that Palestinian Arabs cause a great deal of their own problems. This is not to let the Israelis off the hook but it is to note that Hamas is an enemy to anyone interested in resolving the dispute other than by force.
N. Friedman, just cut the crap. You are wasting your time here. Go peddle your rubbish someplace where people are not in possession of the facts. You are not going to fool anyone here except perhaps your fellow hasbaristas.
All the rockets fired in November were in response to Israel’s attacks, which were in violation of the ceasefire. Even the IMOD characterized the rocket fire as “retaliatory”, thus acknowledging the fact that it was Israel that broke the ceasefire.
According to the Israeli Ministry of Defense and the right wing Israeli Intelligence and Terrorism Information Center, during the 4.5 month period between the beginning of the ceasefire in mid-June and Nov 4-5, when Israel initiated multiple deadly violations, there was a total of 11 rockets (the MOD and the Intelligence and Terrorism Information Center say there were eleven rockets in five months, but the lull really lasted only 4.5 months before Israel broke it, so in fairness I say 4.5 months).
Also according to the MOD and the aforementioned right wing Israeli think tank, during that 4.5 month period before Israel repeatedly violated the ceasefire starting on Nov 4-5 (killing 25 Palestinians, including several children), Hamas was determined to keep the ceasefire and was not involved in any rocket fire. During that period the majority of the 11 rockets came from the military wing of Fatah – you know, Mahmoud Abbas’s guys? – and a smaller number came from Islamic Jihad. Also, according to both the aforementioned sources, at least some, possibly most of the rocket fire in response to the Israeli attacks was directed at Israeli forces, suggesting that it was defensive in nature. This last fact naturally prompts the question “do the Palestinians not have the right to defend themselves?”.
As for the rest of it, save it for someone who is sufficiently lacking in real information to buy it and stop wasting your time here.
Shirin,
Let us say you are correct and “only” 11 rockets were fired and only one or two tunnels were dug. Those were violations of the agreement.
In fact, though, your information is wrong.
Again: Hamas is a group dedicated to Israel’s destruction and, on top of that, to the massacre of all Jews in their path or, in the best case scenario, their ethnic cleansing. The group does not and has never held out the idea of any peace with Israel – only truces. Its leaders assert that Jews are an eternally damned people, having tried to kill their prophet, among other alleged sins.
There is no peace so long as Hamas rules the day. Why? Because they oppose any peace.
N. Friedman,
Before playing of victimisations of your follow and all sorts of these stories that most of you laying them forth head to justifying Israeli “Holocaust” of 1.5 millions in Gaza.
Did you asked one simple questions here, with your follow settlements expanded from 1976 war till now on which land those millions foreigners/Immigrant living on these land from where taken?
How is your state treating Palestinians on their land?
If you still hold your excuses and victimisations I advice you to read This and thise “Israel as a state” you change your arguments (Which I doubt it)and give some justices to the people who lost their land, farms, life for no reason just on old a dream of 5000 years and those you accusing them be rewarded “Shahids – martyrs to God – ” you doing far more than them by “Solder of God” and other things with Promise Land N. Friedman isn’t?
N. Friedman, your follow went after those killers who did the Holocaust of 6 Mill and targeting them fromWWII till now to get justices serviced so what about Palestinians who have massacred killed for no reasons just because the guilt that the West felt by rewarded the Jews this land with support of Zionist Idea of Promises land?
If you seek justices for you follow for so long you dropping it of from other human then?
salah,
There is no “Holocaust” in Gaza nor is one in the making. So, your suggestion to the contrary is nonsense. What is possible – perhaps even likely – is that the dispute cannot be reconciled so that, in the end, the country that results is either all Arab Muslim – as Hamas publicly promotes – or mostly Jewish with a small Arab minority. That, however, is not my preference, just my prediction of the two greatest likelihoods of how the dispute will ultimately come to an end.
At present, Arabs in Israel are treated better, in fact, treated better by far, than Arabs are treated in Egypt or Syria. They are treated as well, if not better, than Arabs are treated in France. That is why Israel has Arab ambassadors, Arabs judges (including on the High Court) and, at times, Arabs in the Cabinet. That is certainly better than in Europe.
As for where people are from, I hold that the right to migrate to a place where refuge is available is a basic – perhaps the most basic – human right. If your position is that Jews have no right to migrate to Israel, that amounts to bigotry. It is no different from the argument made in Europe against Muslim migration to Europe.
Again: Hamas is a group dedicated to Israel’s destruction and, on top of that, to the massacre of all Jews in their path or, in the best case scenario, their ethnic cleansing. The group does not and has never held out the idea of any peace with Israel – only truces.
Likud’s charter eliminates Palestine in precisely the same way. Why waste your time writing, Friedman? We’ve seen all this stuff before.
Because they oppose any peace.
Enough here, if state of Israel looking for pace let her agree Saudi Kings Abdullah Peace Offer which supported by Arab states and also Arab league.
Don’t put you blame of a grope of people “Hamas” which elected “DEMOCRATICALLY” by people not looking for peace, while all who came and goes suppressed Hamas right to negotiate peace last one US ME convoy.
The Pace will be achieved with people by talking to them face to face where you like them of hate them this is your problem and your state in believe of Surrender Term & your will peace deals.
Because they oppose any peace.
Enough here, if state of Israel looking for pace let her agree Saudi Kings Abdullah Peace Offer which supported by Arab states and also Arab league.
Don’t put you blame of a grope of people “Hamas” which elected “DEMOCRATICALLY” by people not looking for peace, while all who came and goes suppressed Hamas right to negotiate peace last one US ME convoy.
The Pace will be achieved with people by talking to them face to face where you like them of hate them this is your problem and your state in believe of Surrender Term & your will peace deals.
Alex,
You write: “Likud’s charter eliminates Palestine in precisely the same way.”
That is not so. Likud does not call for killing all Arabs in Israel’s way and Likud does not call for ethnic cleansing of all Arabs. Hamas, by contrast, calls exactly for both those things. Must I post the official Hamas covenant to prove my point?
At present, Arabs in Israel are treated better, in fact, treated better by far, than Arabs are treated in Egypt or Syria.
Give me break, that not your business, and don’t diverts this discussion here we talking about people on their land who lost their lands and farms and life’s due to your Promised land dream, isn’t?
Imagine one comes on your house yard and live their due accepted and what you can do? Tell us N. Friedman
Recently just coming that Israelis expanded their settlement more that before in 2008 so these are illegal under international law, so this expansion where are going on which land N. Friedman? Is it on your house yard or on neighbour’s yard?
Salah,
I wrote about Hamas exactly because it was elected by Palestinian Arabs. Hence, its hateful bigotry is fair game. And, as I note: Hamas supports genocide (read the covenant, since it states its support rather clearly), holds Jews to be responsible for all wars since the early 1800’s, opposes all peace negotiations (which is why the group proposes only truces) and is hateful and unhelpful to any resolution of the dispute.
It is Hamas which fires rockets into Israel. It is Hamas which digs tunnels into Israel in order to try to take hostages. Hamas is the elected representative of Palestine’s Arabs – which means that Palestinian Arabs bear collective responsibility for their hateful political choices.
Salah,
Jews had every right to migrate to the land. Hence, they have every right to participate in the governance of the country. The country they established offers better rights than does any Arab country and as good or better rights than any European country.
Your opposition to Jewish governance is based on prejudice. That is why you write: “that not your business.” And, by the way, I am not an Israeli nor do I want to be. However, I know bigotry when I read it.
Your argument that it does not matter whether Israel treats Arab in Israel well shows your bias loud and clear. Which is to say: if good governance is not everyone’s business, it is not your business either. And, in that event, why are you asking the world’s help to solve your problems? I know the answer: because you do not care about facts that do not fit your convenient opinions (i.e., your biases).
N. Friedman, you WILL insist on wasting your time here, won’t you? How long will it take you to figure out that you are in the company of a group of people who know what they are talking about?
If my information is wrong, then you need to take it up with the IMOD and the Intelligence and Terrorism Information Center. Those are the sources for the information I have put in front of you so far. If you know more about it than they do, then you ought to let them know that their information is incorrect and tell them to publish accurate information. In the meantime, if “your information is wrong” is the best counter-argument you have, then you really ought to concede defeat and move on.
And no, the eleven rockets were not violations of the agreement. The agreement was between Hamas and Israel. Fatah and Islamic Jihad were not parties to the agreement. According to the IMOD and the Intelligence and Terrorism Information Center Hamas was not involved in firing any of those 11 rockets. Also according to the IMOD and the Intelligence and Terrorism Information Center, Hamas not only refrained from firing at Israel during the 4.5 month period before Israel began its series of attacks on November 4-5, it did a very creditable job of reining in rival groups such as Fatah and Islamic Jihad that were not parties to the agreement, and over which Hamas does not exercise any real control. If the IMOD and one of the premier right wing Israeli “intelligence and terrorism” think tanks are willing to give Hamas credit for working hard to make the ceasefire work, who am I to argue?
But, N. Friedman, if you find a 99% reduction in rockets over a period of 4.5 months sufficiently unacceptable to justify slaughtering 1400 or so human beings, violently ending the lives of 410 or so children (about 1/3 of the deaths), locking in a cage and terrorizing 1.5 million people for 23 days, destroying virtually all the civil infrastructure, and rendering tens of thousands of families homeless, then perhaps you might try thinking about it from another point of view. Perhaps you might try thinking about it from the point of view of the welfare of those Israelis who were terrorized (though rarely physically harmed) by those rockets.
By agreeing to and keeping a ceasefire with Hamas (well, more or less – Israel committed multiple daily violations during the first week, which Hamas chose not to respond to), the Israeli government achieved a 99% reduction in rocket fire for 4.5 months, providing enormous relief to its citizens in Sderot and other target areas. In fact, there were abundant reports in the press and elsewhere during that time that life was returning to normal for those people, nerves were beginning to heal, life was looking better. So, instead of taking steps to renew, lengthen, and strengthen the major improvement in life for its citizens, the Israeli government chose to take actions that were guaranteed to bring about a resumption of the previous levels of rocket fire, destroy any sense of good feeling on either side brought by the ceasefire, and end the relative peace and quiet their citizens had been enjoying for going on five months. And you apparently consider this a good choice.
Let’s see now: On the one hand, the GOI could have chosen the only approach that has proven effective in bringing about a virtual cessation of rocket attacks. It could have scrapped its plans for a nice, big pre-Obama mass murder and destruction spree and instead complied with its agreements under the ceasefire with the objective of renewing the ceasefire, making a good faith effort toward improved compliance on both sides, and increasing the trust and good will on both sides with the goal of making the ceasefire a permanent thing. It could have chosen the course most likely to improve the lives of its citizens (and, parenthetically, the people in Gaza). On the other hand, the GOI could take steps guaranteed to bring about a resumption of rocket fire on its innocent citizens, and to destroy any potential for good will and cooperation that might have developed during the nearly five month lull period.
And you think that was the right choice for the GOI to make on behalf of its citizens. Way to go!
I know the answer: because you do not care about facts that do not fit your convenient opinions (i.e., your biases).
N. Friedman, Likewise with your writing and your views, it makes more appalling by saying “I am not an Israeli” with verey very biased views.
N. Friedman did you see earlier post what I asked you about the treatment of human/Arab on their occupied land by Occupier Israeles? go see the “Facts” of real lifes on people, Go see them and imagine your are one of them and living day after day like them and tell us what your felling?
Your opposition to Jewish governance is based on prejudice..
N. Friedman you forgot one words to throw on me (Anti-Semitism)!!
Anyway N. Friedman you did not answers the points I did put for you, looks this “Hasbara” writing and propaganda clear in your views and believes that your right.
But let put my last pence, both side failed leadership for the peace in ME nor Arab, neither Israelis have succeeded to the level put aside their political agenda and negotiated real peace process that last and finish all this 60 years of conflict. Both side are living on this long conflict and believe me when peace took place all those ugly faces will go or should go forever…
Btw, any way I did jugged Jews rights but Jews lived between Arabs for centuries, Arab did not “holocaust” them in fact they stood and help them when targets here and there through the history this not my inventions and if you keep loop facts again and again you just wasting your time.
Btw, Just one more and last thing here, the Arab Leadership are not representing Arab wishes or their rights as you said before, but for Israelis leadership are “Democratically” elected by Israelis let differentiate here..
Shirin,
The deal with Hamas was for the rocket fire to be halted. Hamas claims to govern Gaza. It matters not that a different group living in Gaza fired the rockets. It matters, instead, that the rockets were fire on Hamas’ watch.
By your theory, NGO vigilante groups in Israel who might fire rockets into Arab villages in Egypt are no the responsibility of government of Israel.
Salah,
I said nothing about Antisemitism nor was it the basis of my comment. My comment was that you oppose Jewish rule on the ground that Jews had no right to migrate to Israel. In fact, they had the same right as migrants all over the world have had, namely, they succeeded in migrating.
I am also well aware that Jews lived in Arab lands for centuries – in fact, before Arabs moved to such lands, conquered and colonized them. Everyone knows that. So what? Few living today in Arab lands are well treated and, most especially, non-Muslims living in Arab lands are poorly treated, far worse than Arabs are treated in Israel proper. Consider, if you will, the several hundred thousand Christians who were expelled by Egypt in the 1950’s, at about the same time that Jews were mostly expelled. The noted Christians had roots in Egypt for many, many centuries but were of Greek ethnicity. Then there are the many Jew who once lived in Egypt but who were expelled.
The fact is that life in Arab countries is not conducive to non-Muslims, at least just now. That is why there has been a mass exodus of Christians from Arab lands. So, whatever you think may have been true centuries ago is no longer true.