AP reports the following details about the tahdi’eh (ceasefire) deal that Hamas says it has now reached with Israel, with Egypt mediating:
- • The truce takes effect at 6 a.m. Thursday (11 p.m. EDT Wednesday).
• All Gaza-Israel violence stops. After three days, Israel eases its blockade on Gaza, allowing more vital supplies in.
• A week later, Israel further eases restrictions at cargo crossings.
• In the final stage, talks are conducted about opening the Rafah crossing between Gaza and Egypt and a prisoner exchange to free Cpl. Gilad Schalit, held by Hamas-affiliated groups for two years.
In Ha’aretz, Amos Harel and Jack Khoury report that
- Israel has not officially confirmed the information; however, security sources said an accord is in the offing. Defense Ministry official Major General (res.) Amos Gilad left Tuesday for Cairo to conclude the final agreement.
… Gilad met Tuesday with Egyptian intelligence chief General Omar Suleiman. The Hamas delegation from Gaza, who met with Suleiman at the beginning of the week, is still in Cairo; Egypt may be shuttling between the parties to conclude the deal. Gilad is to return to Israel overnight with the final agreement and report to Defense Minister Ehud Barak.
The deal looks just about certain to go into effect.
It is notable that the latest steps of this negotiation were completed while Secretary of State Condi Rice was still in the region. The government of Israel has now spent some time engaging in “proximity talks” with both Hamas and Syria. Rice’s proteges inside both the Lebanese and Palestinian political systems have been engaging very seriously with, respectively Hizbullah and Hamas. And her proteges in Iraq have been engaging very seriously with Iran.
So the Quarantine Wall that Rice and Pres. Bush have been working hard to maintain around Hamas, Hizbullah, Syria, and Iran now looks to be in very bad shape indeed.
We might (or by now, actually, might not) recall that just last November, Rice and Bush stage-managed a huge Mideast summit conference in Annapolis, Maryland, at which they pledged their very best efforts to try to win a final-status peace agreement between Israel and the Fateh leaders of the Palestinian Administration by the end of this year.
But the Israelis now apparently pay so little heed to Washington’s efforts that Rice’s visit to Israel this week passed almost unremarked by the Israeli media, according to the CSM’s Ilene Prusher.
If the Israeli side does indeed proceed with the tahdi’eh plan as publicized by Hamas, that is of course yet another serious setback for Fateh. Fateh is anyway, as noted above, engaged in its own effort to reconcile with Hamas. If Hamas has the tahdi’eh in its pocket, then that will strengthen its hands in those internal negotiations.
Conclusion of the tahdi’eh will also, more broadly, drive yet another political nail into the coffin of the two-state solution. Though goodness knows, thousands of other nails have already been driven into its coffin in recent months, with all the announcements from Israel of yet more contracts going out to build large numbers of new housing units in the colonial settlements in East Jerusalem and the rest of the West Bank.
As I wrote in the Boston Review article, what you may therefore see emerging in Israel/Palestinian instead of two states is two “entities”, with one of them being the Hamas-ruled, sub-state entity in Gaza and the other being an Israel that still finds itself unable to disentangle itself from the West Bank.
Over the longer haul, this is not a stable situation. But if Israelis are unable to withdraw from the settlements they have planted deep throughout the West Bank, then they must expect Palestinian claims inside 1948 Israel to grow stronger in response; and over time, a (binational) one-state outcome will likely become increasingly compelling…
“Conclusion of the tahdi’eh will also, more broadly, drive yet another political nail into the coffin of the two-state solution. ”
Normally yes, but in the context of the PA/Hamas talks, the PA/Israel talks, the Syrian/Israel talks, the Doha agreement, Hizbullah/Israel negotiations and the constant Egyptian, Saudi, Qatar to and fro, perhaps something else is going on, Helena?
The PA, Lebanon and probably Israel will be having elections next year, will they not? There will be a different US adminstration. May not all this be significant.
And do you seriously think this is all being done against the will of Condi, that indefatigable sheepdogess who has been rounding up all these players for nearly four years? Perhaps she is nudging them into the pen?
Just a thought.
I would like to know just how populated those “settlements” on the West Bank really are. My impression is, from personal observation and talking to locals, that many are more than half-empty. And the prospect for new recruits to fill them is certainly drying up. Even many Russians are returning to their home country, apparently around 100,000 at last count. Further, many Israelis have dual citizenship, which means that many just keep an apartment in Israel. This is especially true of many US jews. I believe that the permanent, stable population of Israel and the West Bank are much less than the official line. Which means that the occupation of the West Bank is just not working out as planned.
do you seriously think this is all being done against the will of Condi, that indefatigable sheepdogess who has been rounding up all these players for nearly four years?
Yes, I do.
Your sub-clause about Condi that– that she has “been rounding up all these players for nearly four years”– is quite false. She and her boss have been working “indefatigably” for all of the past 7.5 years to maintain the tight Quarantine Wall against Hizbullah, Hamas, Iran, and Syria… That is, to keep them as pariahs with whom no-one in the US-led “international community” should talk, and to literally crush them when possible (Hizbullah in 2006, Hamas with the siege etc.)
So I really don’t know what universe you live in, Bb, but it sure ain’t the one the people of the Middle East live in. She certainly hasn’t been “rounding up” any of the ME players to the place they are now in.
The broader point here is that she and her boss have become increasingly irrelevant to the situation. The players there, even the traditionally pro-US players, have been doing what they can to compensate for the rapid diminution of US power in the region.
Kssandra, interesting point about the settlements. I don’t have any figures on occupancy. Some are obviously more heavily occupied than others; some of the units are retained just as vacation homes by Israeli or non-Israeli Jews living elsewhere. Which, given the horrendous living conditions of the Palestinians all around them is about as clear a picture of apartheid as one could imagine.
But the empty units could make great homes for some of the Palestinian refugees from Lebanon, Gaza, etc, in the context of the final “settlement” of the Palestinian refugees’ vast and longstanding property claims against Israel… and after the quite antidemocratic bars on equal residency rights throughout Israel/Palestine have been swept away…
Ah, tadieh. Hudaybah. Sweet, sweet surrender. But whose?
Shalit may yet be the second captured Israeli to come back alive since 1974, the end of the era of “interstate” wars, which in itself effectively communicates the depths of the antipathy involved since active opposition to Israel was taken over by the Palestinian and Lebanese non-state actors.
Also, something makes me suspect that this blog anticipates “un mouvement normal de vacanciers” to resolve the situation. Israel as vacation home for American Jews is exactly the sort of slur that indigenous Algerian Jews were subjected to when they were deported with the Algerian-born French and the agents of the French state in Algeria. I remain unsurprised at the radical devaluation of Israeli national identity involved, but gawk in horror and giggle nervously considering it is tolerated here when equally radical devaluations of Palestinian national identity, such as “PLO Arabs” and “Jordyptian”, are seen as dangerous claptrap on any Israeli blog to the left of Israellycool and Samson Blinded.
Helena,
The players there, even the traditionally pro-US players, have been doing what they can to compensate for the rapid diminution of US power in the region.
Helena I do not know what exactly you mean by above statement.
As far as reporting there are 1.4Millions Palestinians in GAZA suffering from the day they elected Hamas, ONE millions now on Aide offering by Aide agencies.
The problem with those 1.4Millions people suffering in addition to others in all Palestine due to those what you call them “pro-US players” have restricted and obey US orders by stopping their aid help open borders to the people to hep them in this hard time.
The fact is the main problem in Arab world id internal one more than external this is on going saga these very appalling situations for decades, which “we” appose it all the time, and most of westerns saying don’t put your faults on US and us.
مرة سمعت الست مقبولة تصف بشكل مروع كيف كانالجيش الاسرائيلي يتعامل معهن حين دخل بيوتهن فقد قتل الرجال وترك النساء والاطفال وكانت مقبولة وصويحباتها يسترجعن ذاكرة الفجيعة وينتحبن وكنا جميعا ننتحب معهن قلبا وربا ! وكانت امي تمضي دقائق وهي تدعو الله ان ينزل عذابه على الاسرائليين ويمنح رحمته للشهداء الفلسطينيين !اتذكر كنت واقفا وسط الباب الوسطاني وهو الممر الوحيد بين البيت الدخلاني الذي نسكن فيه والبيت البراني الذي تسكنه الفلسطينيات الثلاث ! كنت انتحب مثل عائلتي ولكن لا واحدة من الفلسطينيات شاهدت دموعي وكان المديح مقصورا على شقيقاتي وشقيقي وحين شعرت بالغبن رفعت صوتي بالبكاء فانا احوج من جميع اهل بيتي للحنان فهرعت الست مي نحوي ورفعتني كما الصغار وسلمتني الى الست مقبولة بعد ان باستني ومسحت دموعي ! وقد همست الست مقبولة في اذني كلمات مازلت اتذكرها حتى الساعة واقسم بربي همست في اذني : لاتبك ياصغيري عبد الاله ففي غد ستكبرون وتستعيدون لنا فلسطين ! يا الهي لقد وشمت الآنسة مقبولة حياتي بفكرة ان يسترجع جيلنا الحق الفلسطيني ! فماذا اقول لك ياسيدتي العظيمة مقبولة ؟ وقد خيب جيلنا حلمكن المقدس ؟ كيف استطيعع النظر في عينيك وعيني مي ورويدا وقد بلغت السابعة والستين وجيلنا قدم بقية ارض فلسطين على طبق من خيانة وغباء ! لقد ضمت اسرائيل كل القدس اليها وضمت الضفة الغربية من نهر الاردن الا قليلا ومن غزة الا قليلا لكي تصنع منها حكومة السيد ابو عمار ياسر عرفات نور الله ثراه إمارة مجهرية بلا سلطات اسمها امارة غزة اريحا ! بعد ان وقع لاسرائيل تنازلا مخجلا من اجل السلام عن مساحات كبرى ثم خيبته اسرائيل فتجرع السم ومضى الى ربه فجاء خلفاه السيد ابو مازن والسيد اسماعيل هنية واختلفا مع الحزن واصبحت ثمة امارتان امارة الضفة يحكمها السيد رئيس منظمة فتح وامارة غزة يحكمها السيد رئيس منظمة حماس ! ماذا ابثك ياسيدتي مقبولة وانتما ياسيدتيَّ مي ورويدا فليكن الله في عوننا جميعا لكن الحق آت ولو ولو بعد حين .
هجرة الشموس والمجرات
Eurosabra:
as a jewish new yorker (who has spent some nominal time on each side of the green line), i can assure you that there are plenty of jewish folks from the u.s. with a vacation home between the jordan and the mediterranean.
these folks are to be very clearly distinguished from (a) ‘sabra’ jewish israelis (including the steadily growing numbers of expatriate sabras rejoining the diaspora); (b) palestinian jews (the pre-yishuv yerushalmi and sfati communities, most notably, who’ve been marginalized by the ashkenazi-centrism of the zionist movement); (c) u.s. jews (and the few from elsewhere) who emigrate to join the far-right settler movements.
there aren’t a huge number of these vacationers, but they’re in interesting and somewhat significant phenomenon. these folks, clearly, are notably well-off – witness the prices for apartments marketed as “second homes” in tel aviv – compared to both israeli and u.s. jews. their effect on life for residents of the state of israel (jewish, palestinian, southeast asian, &c) is roughly comparable to that of the pied-a-terre condo buyers in new york city: higher rents, evictions, displacement.
as anyone who pays attention to israeli jewish attitudes towards u.s. (and other diaspora) jews can tell you, the growth of this vacationer class is a significant source of resentment. for the israeli state, however (and its owning classes), its growth is an economic opportunity to be encouraged…
the notion of israeli jews as “vacanciers” is clearly pretty absurd – the striking thing about these vacationers is exactly how clearly they are not israelis by culture, upbringing, or (often) language. but it’s no risk to bet that these “second home” apartments will suddenly lose most of their charm – and damn near all of their tenants – when they’re no longer part of a racially/religiously defined state. these folks didn’t buy fancy digs to live on terms of equality with palestinians, and they’ll be perfectly happy to leave that to the sabras.
Sorry, Eurosabra, Israel is nothing more than just a summer camp for many, many jews.
During my last visit to Palestine, I spent quite a bit of time just observing those “settlements”, (the correct term being colonies on occupied land, not forgetting the fact that international law forbids an occupying power from settling its people on occupied land.) Around those very huge settlements that I observed, there was very little movement. Do the jews spend most of their time indoors? Days on end? I also spent several days just walking around the jewish areas of Jerusalem. Many, many closed apartments. Drapes closed, leaves blown up against doors.
And, from friends that have visited, their description is that Tel Aviv has turned into a low-level Russian shtetl. Crude, racuous, pushy.
And there are those who still remember. “Sderot” was the Palestinian village of NAJD that was destroyed by the Israeli Negev Brigade on 13 November 1948 and its 719 SURVIVING inhabitants were transferred to Gaza.
Eurosabra, how does it feel to defend an apartheid country? How does it feel to be guilty of crimes against humanity?
The Israeli and Palestinian populations will ultimately decide on a one-state or two-state outcome. Whatever their decision the rest of us have to abide by it, regardless of which solution we might prefer. As Helena noted, a one-state solution will catch on when it becomes compelling. I would assume that means that the Israeli and Palestinian publics find that solution a situation they can live with. A number of variables have to be in place to lead to this outcome. Helena noted the continuing insistence of Israel to build more settlements on occupied land. If that insistence is ever reversed, just as how opposition to negotiations with Syria and Hamas now appear to have been reversed, then I think a two-state outcome will become suddenly more viable. If kassandra is right about settlements being only sparsely populated, well that would make the settlements that much easier to shut down, wouldn’t it?
“She and her boss have been working “indefatigably” for all of the past 7.5 years to maintain the tight Quarantine Wall against Hizbullah, Hamas, Iran, and Syria… That is, to keep them as pariahs with whom no-one in the US-led “international community” should talk, and to literally crush them when possible (Hizbullah in 2006, Hamas with the siege etc.)
So I really don’t know what universe you live in, Bb, but it sure ain’t the one the people of the Middle East live in. She certainly hasn’t been “rounding up” any of the ME players to the place they are now in.”
Mildly: What has Condi wanted over the last 4 years, Helena, – going by what we know of her diplomacy, Annapolis etc? Would her notebook look something like this…..
1. Final status agreement for a united Palestinian state:
PA/Israel talks, PA/Hamas talks/, Israel/Hamas talks. Egypt, Saudi, Jordan, Qatar to and fro.
Check.
2 Syrian/Israel peace treaty to match Egypt/Jordan peace treaty.
Syria/Israel official talks. Turkey to and fro.
Check.
3. Independent democratic state of Lebanon. Preservation of Siniora government. Peace between Lebanon/Israel. Full Syrian diplomatic relations with Lebanon and recognition of Lebanon’s boundaries.
Doha Agreement, Hizbullah/Israel negotiations, Egyptian, Saudi, Qatar to and fro. Plus Lebanese army and European peacekeepers in southern Lebanon.
Check.
Is there ANYTHING the woman has left undone?
Also Helena, it was Condi who insisted over Israel’s objections that Hamas be permitted to run in the PA elections. It was Condi who insisted to Sharon that the Israelis withdraw from the Philadelphi Rd when they quit Gaza.
Strange way to maintain a tight Quarantine Wall, don’t you think?
Bb, a hilariously funny reframing/rewriting of the recent history there. Thanks for the chuckles.
I don’t know, really, Kassandra, since most of my involvement has been with Israeli civil society, mainly in the medical field. How does it feel, for you as a European, to support the extirpation of the only state structure dedicated to the rescue of threatened Jews?
We don’t have to *convince* you. We just have to STOP you.
Self-determination now includes Jews.
You’re welcome, Helena. Were you pleased to see Mr Siniora returned as PM of Lebanon? Am sure Condi was.
ps Condi’s notebook most assuredly has an “Iran” heading, where she has pencilled in: “secret visit to Qom before November? Ryan to report back.”
Eurosabra, isn’t the term “Israeli civil society” rather a misnomer? Can’t think of any other “civil society”, for example, that has built roads and highways for the exclusive use of one religion only. Even apartheid South Africa didn’t do that. We won’t even mention all those international laws that Israel daily ignores, starting with the Universal Declaration of Human Rights and the Geneva Protocols.
And if Israel was set up as a place of “rescue for threatened jews”, how come so many of those “threatened jews” keep a second passport? Last I looked, the number was almost 70%. Is it because, when summer camp gets boring or dangerous, they can conveniently leave? And keep on playing the long-suffering jew?
Isn’t the term “Israeli civil society” rather a misnomer, Eurosabra? Can’t think of any other “civil society” that in modern times has built as its bedrock laws that discriminate against the native population. Even apartheid South Africa didn’t go so far as to build special roads for one religion only.
And if Israel was set up to “rescue threatened jews”, why is it that almost 70% of Israelis carry a second passport? Is it because they can easily leave should summer camp become boring or unsafe?
Kassandra,
Some keep a second passport in hopes they will be allowed to or able to flee if the genocidal anti-Semitic Arabs get their genocidal wish. (This obscures the reality that the vast majority of Arabs are not genocidal. I mean, if both sides’ BELIEVED their war-to-the-death rhetoric, we’d have something on the scale of Bosnia, with total war mobilization of both societies. Jerusalem is awash in enough weaponry to instantly create Sarajevo 1994, on any given morning. The fact is that 90% of Israelis and Palestinians wake up each morning to ordinary lives.) Mine, until I gave it up, was a nod to my father’s failed dream of being a productive, assimilated cosmopolitan European, in a society that would only let him be first a Jew and then a victim.
And the elements of Israeli civil society, the legal and medical NGOs, and the medical infrastructure, are or aspire to be non-discriminatory. (Possible exception of the Israel Medical Assoc., which is not coming out enough against torture.) But the whole point of Israel is not to let Germans or Hamas decide where or even if we may live. Their governing party explicitly seeks the dissolution of Israel and the destruction of its Jewish population (“the trees and rocks will call out”, etc.). So there’s not much to discuss, although Israelis and Palestinians are the peoples most often asked to discard their identities, sovereignty (or claim on sovereignty), or physical safety in the name of some ideal or justice or peace, usually by some stranger thousands of miles away.
“Some keep a second passport in hopes they will be allowed to or able to flee…”
Then Israel isn’t much of a refuge for them, is it?
Eurosabra is right. While it may make some feel good to imagine that we’re all just going to pack up one day and head somewhere else, it just isn’t going to happen.
after the quite antidemocratic bars on equal residency rights throughout Israel/Palestine have been swept away…
Yes Helena? Then I would assume, for the most part, those settlers would probably be able to stay where they are. That is if those “residency rights” are really equal.
Rozele, yours is an interesting case. Because you’re a Jew from New York, you can personally vouch for the fact that there are a lot of vacation homes in Israel. (Does that have to do with you being a yid or a New Yorker? I’m still waiting for someone here to claim expertise based on the fact that they are Palestinian from Dearborn.) Sure, maybe even a few thousand. So what? Most of them aren’t even Israeli citizens, so why should they blend in?
I love your characterizations of the Israeli population as well. If anyone else were to make such grossly ridiculous and insulting stereotypes about, say Palestinian Arabs (or, heaven forbid, New Yorkers – including aging Jewish bundists who drink seltzer an then greps), you’d have a fit. I particularly like your quaint characterization of what you call “Palestinian Jews”. (Why did you mention “Yerushalmim” and “Tzfatim” and leave out “Hevronim”?) Just FYI, I have never met one of these “Palestinian Jews” who would refer to themselves by that term. You should also know that those Jews whose family histories go back before the middle of the nineteenth century are pretty evenly split between Sfaradim and Ashkenazim. Moreover, it was not some “Ashkenazi-centric” plot that alienated these Jews, rather opposition to Zionist secularism. But no matter, the idea that this is some kind of demographic faction or class is just baseless. As Ehud Barak asked back in 1999 referring to the fact that his ex-wife is from a well-known “Tveriani-Sfaradi” family while his parents came from Poland: “What are my children then?”
And then there’s the issue of high prices in Tel Aviv. Since I can remember there have been high real estate prices in Tel Aviv, and there have been local wise people who have tried to explain them. Thirty years ago it was the elderly who refused to either sell or die who were causing the values of real estate to go up. During the Internet bubble it was the entrepreneurs who suddenly became rich following M&As and IPOs. Today, the villains are (and I have this on the good authority of my daughter who wouldn’t live anywhere else) the French.
Fact of the matter is Tel Aviv is a very attractive city with a vibrant nightlife and a cosmopolitan atmosphere that attracts a lot of people – particularly the younger variety. It’s also an area of finite real estate with a limited number of apartments. It’s also interesting to note that the recent upsurge in French property buying is not for vacation homes. It’s for “safe homes”, and began immediately after the high-profile murders of Jewish youths by Muslims in France and the recent riots (oh, those didn’t really happen did they…). Most of the purchasers are the very same Jews to whom Eurosabra referred. Perhaps they understand something that you don’t.
And, from friends that have visited, their description is that Tel Aviv has turned into a low-level Russian shtetl. Crude, racuous, pushy.
Right Kassandra. Well, you should either get new friends who are better at observation or tell your current friends that they should probably open their eyes next time. BTW, apart from being “crude, raucous and pushy”, we also suck our teeth after we eat and say “oy vey!” a lot. At any rate Kassandra, how does it feel to support a reactionary, racist movement? How does it feel to support a group that commits crimes against humanity?
Note to Rozele: Kassandra’s description of Tel Aviv sounds a lot like the way some people I know describe Manhattan!
And as Kassandra’s rant builds to a crescendo:
…that has built roads and highways for the exclusive use of one religion only.
You know, you just happen to be wrong on two counts here. First off, those roads and highways were not built for anyone’s exclusive use. They were built to facilitate the terms of the Oslo Accord. They only became “exclusive” following a large number of ambushes and shootings. Further, they are not for the use of “one religion only”. Today many of these roads are closed to non-Israeli traffic.
Last I looked, the number was almost 70%.
Where’d you look? To the same people who decided that Tel Aviv is a shtetl filled with raucous and pushy yids? 70% of whom? I would suspect that the figure is in relation to the children of Holocaust survivors, who have recently been given the possibility of requesting passports from the EU countries where there parents were born. In this case I don’t think it’s a matter of “summer camp”. The second generation has been afflicted with many of the neuroses of their parents’ generation – people who always slept with sacks of flour and sugar, a container of oil, and a sweater and warm socks under their beds for years after their liberation from the camps. I don’t think that you should count on these people becoming bored with summer camp.
Then Israel isn’t much of a refuge for them, is it?
Maybe not Shirin, but it’s the best we have. BTW, how many passports do you hold?
Eurosabra,
We just have to STOP you
If Eurosabra from the only democracy in ME or from western world looks he made a threat to some member of this board.
Its clearly here how closemind he/she and obviously he trying to shutt Kassandra’s mouth instead of discussing the truth from Kassandra words or give his/her evidences that defending his/her views.
But by stating “We just have to STOP you” its far more serious threat made in savage way that clear of Zionist’s attitude.
Helena, do you consider you should ban Eurosabra” from this form due to his violations for the code of conduct of this board?
Ah, yes, given that I am a Ziofascist, I must be threatening Kassandra. No, rather, it is that Zionism has turned to an instrumentality of power (assuring that the power of those who oppose it cannot determine the fate of Eretz Israeli Jews) rather than an instrumentality of pleading. That is the difference between Bernard Lazare (for example) and Vladimir Jabotinsky. Since I know Kassandra cannot be won over, I must content myself with the fact that the extirpation of Israel is not current EU policy, and with the belief that should it become so, Israel has sufficient power of all kinds to preserve its existence, unlike, say, the Bundists, who had no power to save the Jews from their fate.
I apologize for the unfortunate ambiguity, when I could have made the point clearer with sufficient brevity.
Actually, I was not thinking of it in terms of Jews fleeing Europe thinking that their French/UK/Ger whatever passport might get them out to Israel in the event of an Islamist takeover, but can see how that might be relevant. 3rd country passports save almost no one in praxis, as a few Israeli-American and Palestinian-Americans have discovered, given the randomness and impersonality and distance involved in modern terrorism and war. The only cure is to be elsewhere when the shooting STARTS.
You clearly demonstrated قباحة وطول لسان here and your head full of hatred and lies that can help you to read and react in human way.
Before going through your rubbish remember Islam/Muslims saved Jew’s in many historic events go read the history will tell.
Putting your Zionist ideology by bringing Jew’s here as same as mixing Osama Bin Ladin, Jihad and terrorists with Islam and Muslims.
Islam/Muslim have nothing to do what happened to you in Spain when the Christians invaded Andalusia slaughtered Muslims as same as the Jew’s. Islam/Muslims not responsible for crimes happened in France or in Russia; lastly Islam/Muslims have nothing to do with Germany and Holocaust crimes.
Nevertheless, your self-necessity ideology invited this to cover your lies the time proves how savage your ideology on the ground in Palestine on Muslim land.
When “shooting STARTS” do not worry Muslims will not do worst than what you doing each day with them simply they believe in Allah and Koran not in Theodor Herzl..
“If your house built from Class don’t Stone neighbour’s houses ” Iraqi saying.
Israel’s uncertain future