Accountability for the Beit Hanoun massacre

59 thoughts on “Accountability for the Beit Hanoun massacre”

1. Here we go again, a big propaganda event sponsored by Helena whenever there is some friction in this chronic war. If you launch rockets, fire will be returned to you, and people will get hurt. The rocket ain’t surgical nor aimed at military target so give me a break. She who could not get her marriage right with her first Arab husband pretends it is trivial to get along with the entire Hamas Gaza population. Get your act togeteher Helena before lecturing others. What was the problem? You didn’t put up with the other three wives?

2. The U.S. has actually committed similar acts in Iraq, although probably on a smaller scale. Not long after the U.S. invasion occurred an article appeared in the British press in which a British officer complained that Americans treat Iraqis like “untermenchen”. He described how the U.S. would use radar to approximately locate the source of any shelling in Bagdad and then shell that area in return, regardless of any “collatoral damage” this might do.
   ************
   “She who could not get her marriage right with her first Arab husband pretends it is trivial to get along with the entire Hamas Gaza population. ”
   Viida, your ad hominen attack seems to suggest that because this divorce occurred there is something wrong with Arabs. By this logic many ethnic groups must be pretty bad because divorce is quite common.
   What makes the Beit Hanoun massacre a “propaganda event” and 911 not a propaganda event (or at least I have not heard it described so)?

3. Helena
   The reason the Beit Hanoun massacre has been ignored by MSM in the US is that occurred early on the 8th November. I posted on Juan Cole’s site at 9.39 am.
   There was only one topic that was addressed on that morning in the US and the bureaucratic rearrangements taking place the following day meant that nobody noticed the unfortunates die.
   What you have done is highlight the way the rest of us are victims of US domestic politics, as Riverbend complains.
   As nobody in the US knows that 18 people died, they will not understand why the Arab League has undermined the US financial blockade of Palestine.
   This is one of the reasons the development of the Internet fascinates me. Anyone can set up a feed reader that allows them to access news from all round the world.
   Viida might find John Donne, a useful read. Ask not for whom the bell tolls …..

4. Palestine & Israel solution SEP06
   The Palestinian/Israeli problem is the core of the MidEast Troubles. Without a solution here, there will be no solutions anywhere in the area. Without dwelling on history, I will go directly to the solution.
   First, Jerusalem becomes an International City and the Israeli capital is re-acknowledged as Tel Aviv. The Palestinians name their own capital.
   Second, Israel pulls back to the pre-1967 borders.
   Thirdly, the area of Jerusalem is physically defined to form many functions :
   – The city will become host to most large-scale UN functions.
   – Jerusalem will have a local security force and a UN security force of limited scope.
   – The borders will be maintained by Israel and Palestine, either in tandem or separately.
   – There will be an International airport.
   – The area will be large enough to be physically defended and observe adjacent areas.
   – The area will control the major highland aquifers, and oversee per capita national allocations.
   – The area will allow a transnational journey by either nationality. By passing through Jerusalem, an Israeli transits N/S, and a Palestinian travels E/W. This allows Palestine to have international borders with Jordan and Egypt, but not Syria or Lebanon, respecting current treaties and civilities.
   The area will be a duty/tax free area, and the allocated ownership will be dispersed to the “right to return” Palestinians, the displaced Israeli colonists, and all who have lost their homes. Internal agriculture (because of crowded conditions) will also be “eminent domained”, the owners compensated and they and the land are included in the allocation.
   The Jerusalem area should be as small as possible, hence the agricultural exclusion. The land should be Israeli or Palestinian, as much as possible.
   Jerusalem will be a service, marketing and manufacturing zone. Each family unit will be prorated by size, then entered into a lottery for both a plot of residential land and a plot of commercial value. The allocations will be random to negate ghettoes and insularity. The residential and UN infrastructure will be internationally funded and built immediately. The residents will have startup funding of some sort. The residents of Jerusalem will have ownership, equity, involvement, and potential.
   They, and the UN personnel, will not abide terrorism, and will self-police effectively. The key to controlling terrorism is to remove the cause and the base. This will do both. This is a step towards World Peace.

5. I don’t think the whole city needs to be a UN administered city. I think only the Old City, with all the Holy sites, needs UN administration. The pre-1967 definition of East Jerusalem can become the capital of the State of Palestine, while the rest becomes the capital of Israel. To alleviate concerns about a “divided city” Israel can call its capital Jerusalem, while they can call the Palestinian capital “East Jerusalem”, an entirely different city, no division. Palestinians can call their own capital Jerusalem and the capital of Israel West Jerusalem. But the most important areas of the city, the Holy sites, will be a UN enclave that members of all creeds can access.

6. Neither did BBC mentioned the massacre in Beit Hanoun .
   Lack of moral conciousness combined with racism is the root cause of human suffering.
   Uri, Helena, Edward Said and their likes are labeled as propagandist, leftist….. I see in them what most of us are lacking, humanity combined with bravery.
   They are fearless and free, bless their souls.
   Unlike Viida and her likes, their soul legacy is attacking examplary humanitarian figures.

7. Viida/David/Davis’s little diatribe is extremely sad, but also extremely revealing, don’t you think?
   Here we go again, a big propaganda event sponsored by Helena whenever there is some friction in this chronic war…
   “propaganda event”… “sponsored by helena”… and then, most amazingly “some friction”– used to refer to the outright killing of 18 members of a single family as they lie in their beds at night.
   This is why I would far, far rather read the Israeli press than listen to the tragically amoral and self-righteous bleatings of Israel’s propganadists in the west.
   If you launch rockets, fire will be returned to you, and people will get hurt.
   Is he saying that this family– children, women, and men– fired rockets and deserved to get hurt? Or is he saying that indiscriminate, collective punishment of a whole population is somehow ok?
   The rocket ain’t surgical nor aimed at military target…
   Firstly, if it ain’t “surgical” (whereas of course, that IOF artillery was… ), then how does Davis know what these few tiny rockets might have been aimed at? Secondly, if the Hizbullah rockets of July were– as Michael Totten famously told us from northern Israel– only “pipsqueakers”, then the Qassam rockets in the Sderot region are a whole order smaller and less destructive even than that… And the casualty rate from them has been– ? Almost zero.
   Note in all the above no acknowledgement from Davis of the bereavement and suffering of the people of beit Hanoun.
   Note, lastly, the truly pathetic nature of his ad-feminam attack on me. Davis, thank G-d, knows nothing whatsoever about the circumstances and breakup of my first marriage, which was always amicable, and happened 25 years ago. He apparently doesn’t even know that the people of Marjayoun, including my ex, are all Christians. So he takes this silly, uninformed sideswipe at me while trying, quite extraordinarily, to extrapolate from that to the claimed impossibility of getting along with what he describes– with his usual lack of accuracy– as “the entire Hamas Gaza population”.
   ?
   Davis, I’m only keeping your comment on this board because it illustrates so vividly the ridiculous, contorted form and hostile, anti-humane content of your arguments. Further attempts at posting comments of this ilk will be edited.

8. I find this Beit Hanoun massacre extremely depressing? Why? Because it’s another “mistake” in a series of mistakes that stretches far back into the past, and will likely continue into the foreseeable future. If anyone, be they Israeli, American, or of any other ethnicity, has the audacity to deny the simple moral truth that killing 20 innocent civilians in their sleep, women and children, is WRONG, then I cannot help but label them morally blind. Why can’t people acknowledge simple moral truths like this, and leave their relativism (“this is justified because the Palestinians did this and that…”) aside? It’s almost as if Israel takes pride in alienating itself from the international community of concerned observers.
   I’ve come to the conclusion that Israel’s all-or-nothing siege mentality (whereby their every second of existence is threatened by some outside force or another) is to some extent what perpetuates their alienation and the violence against them.
   Oh, and Helena, disregard the propagandist here who comes out lashing at you with ad hominem attacks and who attempts to sideline the discussion with his idiocy.
   By the way, when this propagandist described the Beit Hanoun massacre as “a big propaganda event” doesn’t it remind you of what the neocons say about the car bombings and daily deaths in Iraq, namely that they’re just a vehicle for terrorist propaganda supported by the liberal media? The inhumanity of this sentiment is appalling.

9. What was the problem? You didn’t put up with the other three wives?
   Here we go again of personal attack, look to your silly propaganda, is it all Arab have FOUR WIVES? Can you tell us how percent of Arab have four wives these days? Did you and other Israeli stope spreading these lies and propaganda.
   Is it better than Dating every day getout every day with Boyfriends OR Girlfriends?
   Butter focused on the topes and discusses the legality of occupations and massacres, Israeli never stopping doing it on clams of Rockets.
   Can tell us how many Israelis killed or injured by those clams of rockets fired on you? tell us come forward and prove that by showing us some links we need to see the injured suffered in hospitals not just lies as you listed about Helena and Islam.
   This the Israeli way when they loosing the ground of defence they bring up the personal as common practise all the time

10. “The state of the corporate-controlled media in this country is now so pathetic that Reporters Sans Frontieres (Reporters without Borders — for press freedom) just ranked the US 53rd in the world in press freedom behind countries like Benin, Namibia, Jamaica, France and Bolivia.
    James Petras is a courageous independent voice who bucks this disturbing trend and refuses to go along. He proves it in his powerful and carefully documented new book that gives no quarter countering the mendacity, deceit and danger of the Lobby, its acolytes and hangers-on, and the corrupted major media. In his introduction, he calls for a “counter-hegemonic movement” to free us from our destructive “Israeli entanglements.” It’s needed to begin rebuilding our democracy and freedoms that are somewhere between life support and the crematorium.”
    http://www.middle-east-online.com/english/opinion/?id=18139

11. What mystifies me about Burston’s column in Haaretz is his placing sole blame for the debacle on Peretz. We all know, & he knows too, that Peretz is but one major player who deserves blame. What about Olmert the PM & Halutz, chief of staff?
    I entirely agree w. him that Peretz’s performance was & is shameful. But does he really think that by removing Peretz fr. leadership of the Labor party that he will get a better, less tainted leader? I’m sorry to say that Israeli politics is currently such that replacement of any particular leader (such as Olmert or Peretz) would likely lead to a replacement equally pernicious, if not more so.
    I simply don’t know how to find courageous, visionary Israeli leadership, let alone get them elected to a position of power & influence.

12. The casualty rates from the Qassams are virtually zero because the IDF has aggressively pursued them. Nevertheless, the IDF is clearly in “reactive” mode. Ever since the Gaza “disengagement,” Hamas is following the Hezbollah model and using Israel’s withdrawal not for peace but instead to build up their arsenal.
    Haaretz is reporting an estimated 30 tons of explosives have been smuggled into Gaza. Many of them through weapons tunnels, including some which were dug in the Greenhouses which were given to the PA (after American Jews raised MILLIONS of dollars to do so).
    This should be brought up and acknowledged now, because unless something is done by the Palestinians themselves, then there will simply be another IDF (the proper spelling, Helena) action which will be significantly wider in scope than what we saw over the past couple of weeks in Beit Hanoun.
    Inevitably, when this occurs, there will be some commentors who will rail about the IDF’s “unprovoked” attack and make claims of massacres. As the haaretz article points out, no one in the Israeli government or IDF actually WANTS to attack Gaza, but the Palestinians are really leaving little choice.
    I was very touched to see Helena claim that she wants peace. The question is, will she continue to engage in “hamasbara” and ignore the very non-peace oriented activities, and just save her vitriol and hatred for the IDF?

13. One other thing, I was also surprised to see no entry from Helena regarding Hezbollah’s brazen attempt to destabilize the Lebanese government. Essentially, they have said that they receive veto power, or they will bring down the government, and have hinted of fomenting civil war.
    I was particularly surprised, because after the Lebanon war, Helena gave us almost daily updates on the state of Israel’s government, implying instability and iminent collapse.
    As it turned out, she was wrong about this. It’s possible that she wants to be more cautious about what she writes given her poor track record. But more likely it just fits the pattern of Helena gleefully pointing out real or perceived failings of the Israeli government, while providing reliable cover and propaganda for whatever Arab or Muslim group has taken the most rejectionist stance against Israel (perhaps we can call it “Hezbara”).
    Sort of like when Helena “I want peace!” Cobban was gleefully pointing out Hezbollah’s “daring” and “inventive” tactics of capturing Israeli soldiers, even though any rational person would know that it would spell absolute disaster and destruction in Lebanon.

14. The casualty rates from the Qassams are virtually zero because the IDF has aggressively pursued them.
    If this real them what the excuses that Israelis killing tens of Palestinians in revenge of Qassams.
    There are no justifications for the Beit Hanoun massacre while the rockets just making a scary thing inside Israel and ZERO effects on Israelis!!!
    I was very touched to see Helena claim that she wants peace.
    Before you talking about Helena and her hardworking for rising the awareness of the conflicts in ME and her contributions toward the humanity, look to yourself speaking about peace in ME between Arab and Israeli, so far we can’t see any signs of genuinely feeling from your comments here that you really interested in peace, your comments here reflects some hatreds mixed with blind support of the bulling and un-justifying acts by Israelis in the region.

15. no one in the Israeli government or IDF actually WANTS to attack Gaza,
    Ofcourse NOT, Read this:
    “The Olmert government bases its campaign against Palestinian civilian infrastructure on three fallacies: that Israel does not initiate violence but retaliates to protect its citizens–in this case a captured soldier; that its response is measured and not meant to harm the broader population; and that it does not negotiate with those it deems terrorists.
    But Israel’s offensive did not start last week. The three-month-old Israeli government is responsible for the killing eighty or more Palestinians, some of whom were children, in attacks aimed at carrying out illegal extrajudicial assassinations and other punishments. Hamas has maintained a one-sided cease-fire for the past sixteen months, but continued Israeli attacks made Palestinian retaliation only a question of time. (Palestinian factions not under Hamas’s control had been firing home-made rockets across the border off and on during this period–almost always with little or no damage or casualties–but these factions maintained that the attacks were in response to Israeli provocations.) ”
    http://www.thenation.com/doc/20060717/bishara

16. If this real them what the excuses that Israelis killing tens of Palestinians in revenge of Qassams.
    Very telling, the use of words here.

17. I think that it’s important to be accurate and get a few things straight here.
    First of all, I don’t think that anyone here has even attempted to “excuse Israel, whatever it does” – certainly not in the case of this tragedy in Beit Hanoun.
    I think that somebody should also inform Gideon Levy – who, from what I’ve seen on numerous television appearances, is not the greatest listener when the facts don’t agree with his ideology – that Israel, contrary to what he states in his column, did immediately try to send humanitarian and medical aid to the families in Beit Hanoun. The duly elected Hamas government openly refused that aid (Biting off your constituents noses to spite their faces?)
    Then there is this hizbolobby style diatribe:
    We do need to see, of course, the exact settings on the fuzes of those artillery shells. Why, after the first one or two of them slammed into the apartment building, did they just keep on coming? The IOF [sic] clearly has a serious fire-control problem. But whether this is “technical” or due to the human intervention of extremists in the IOF [sic] who are keen to keep tensions stoked high: that is one important thing to know.
    I have not seen any credible evidence that more than a single shell slammed into the apartment building, inflicting the horrible loss of human life. To state otherwise, or to call this a “a sustained Israeli artillery attack against a residential complex” simply counters the facts as they have been reliably reported. To then proceed from this hyperbole to imply that this might have been an intentional attempt by so-called “extremists” in the IDF is simply an unfounded libel.

18. Mor on no one in the Israeli government or IDF actually WANTS to attack Gaza,
    “t a dinner addressed by the Israeli ambassador, a handful of Republican senators and the chairman of the Republican Party, Mr. Hagee read greetings from President Bush and Prime Minister Ehud Olmert of Israel and dispatched the crowd with a message for their representatives in Congress. Tell them “to let Israel do their job” of destroying the Lebanese militia, Hezbollah, Mr. Hagee said.
    He called the conflict “a battle between good and evil” and said support for Israel was “God’s foreign policy.””
    http://www.nytimes.com/2006/11/14/washington/14israel.html?ex=1321160400&en=60ed9b6ecde3816e&ei=5089&partner=rssyahoo&emc=rss

19. Now as a Jew whose parents lived in Israel and who certainly cannot count himself as an antisemite or any such nonsense, what JES is saying is really offending my basic moral intuitions and it makes me wonder how someone can introduce sly and subtle questions and equivocate when we are talking about the deaths of 19 innocent civilians who died, like many Palestinian victims before them, for NO good reason.
    Moreover, there are substantial factual errors and lies in what JES is saying. To quote him:
    I have not seen any credible evidence that more than a single shell slammed into the apartment building, inflicting the horrible loss of human life. To state otherwise, or to call this a “a sustained Israeli artillery attack against a residential complex” simply counters the facts as they have been reliably reported.
    This is a lie. According to The Guardian, “Witnesses said that the first shell hit a home, causing deaths and injuries. Residents took shelter while rescuers attempted to retrieve the bodies and care for the wounded. Many residents were sheltering in a nearby alleyway when a second shell landed, causing most of the casualties. A further five or six shells landed in the same vicinity over a period of 15 minutes, witnesses said.”
    So it was sustained. And it was brutal, and it was focused on a residential area of sleeping women and children who had no reason to die. I don’t know what kind of fucked-up extreme nationalism compels you to forget your basic moral duties as a human being, but this is not something you can glibly excuse and introduce your little doubts. This is inexcusable, and since these kinds of civilian massacres have been commonplace, killing people who have no connection to terrorism or anything (think of the Gaza beach massacre), I can only conclude that these sorts of things are intentional.
    Now this, dear friends, is the very definition of state terrorism: when the army that brags of incredible tactical accuracy continually kills large numbers of Palestinians and attempts to use fear as a weapon to destabilize and annihilate their enemies.

20. Mike,
    Thank you for stating your bona fides – although I am sure that you will agree that, in this particular case, they are quite irrelevant to what is universally seen as a human tragedy.
    Okay, now let’s talk about fucked-upedness, to put things in your chosen playing field.
    I take great exception to your accusing me of equivocating or introducing “sly and subtle questions”. I did no such thing. I believe that I stated my argument quite clearly and forthrightly. Further, I neither tried to excuse nor to introduce “little doubts”, either glibly or otherwise.
    As for the “evidence” you provide, I think that what the Guardian reported that apparently unidentified witnesses might have said is far from conclusive or reliable. This certainly does not jibe with any of the reporting that I have seen – including much critical reporting – or with the initial report of the IDF itself. Further, to state that “A further five or six shells landed in the same vicinity over a period of 15 minutes,” does not add much to the argument. Even the IDF reported that the target (one or more Qassam launchers) was in a grove approximately 500 meters from where the shell landed – certainly in the same vicinity. There were similar “eyewitness accounts” from Jenin (although I don’t recall whether the Guardian duly reported the 500 civilian deaths that turned out not to have occurred), as there were in Southern Lebanon that prompted Fouad Siniora’s tearful announcement that 40 civilians had been killed in shelling. Both turned out to be gross exaggerations.
    But what really galls me is the audacity you have in asserting that what happened was intentional based on… absolutely nothing that could substantiate such an accusation. Further, your insistence that I and others here who have the temerity to try to present the facts as reported outside of the Guardian are somehow guilty as you say (in your mock quote)of claiming that what happened in Beit Hanoun “is justified because the Palestinians did this and that…” is absurd. No one, least of all I, has said any such thing.
    And BTW, contrary to what you stated in a previous thread, the majority of Israelis killed by Qassam rockets have not been Israeli Arabs. And although two were, I don’t think that that made Israel, or the IDF, any less intent on putting a stop to the launches.

21. Again, you’re giving lies. If you don’t want to believe The Guardian, good for you. I personally see no reason to doubt its reports.
    The reason I say that this reflects an intentional policy is that much of the Israeli public and especially the Israeli war machine has said that it is keen on punishing the populations until they “no longer support” missiles being launched from their territory. There is the Gaza beach massacre. There are attacks on refugee camps in Lebanon. There are attacks on clearly marked UN observers who could provide objectivity. This is a campaign of fear, of state terrorism.
    And seriously, are you blind? Do you not see the integration of far-right wing ministers like Lieberman who says it’s ok to deport the Palestinians? Now while I concede that I was wrong that more Israeli Arabs were killed than Israeli Jews, this does nothing to set aside the fact that this is HUGELY disproportionate. From BBC: “In all, nine people, all civilians, are thought to have been killed in Israel by Qassam rockets since the first fatalities in June 2004. … Almost 400 Palestinians, many of them civilians, have died in such operations since late June 2006.” Do you see the picture yet?
    And I gave evidence that the Israeli attack was sustained over a period of at least 20 minutes. Whether you choose to ignore the Guardian because of your ideological biases is no matter to me.
    Now, I’m going to quote the mayor of Sderot, and then I’ll tell you two terms that what he says translate to: “The fact that it is impossible to eradicate them to the last Qassam rocket is clear. An equation has to be created in which it is not worth it for the Palestinians to fire,” he continued.” In other words, collective punishment. Other people would call it state terrorism. But apart from what you call collective punishment or how you justify it, it is a breach of international law, an infringement of the basic human rights of Palestinians, and perhaps more importantly for blind ideologues like you (stop denying it), detrimental to Israel’s long term security interests. Collective punishment does not work. And I stand by my argument that because of whatever ideological attachments you have, you’re blinded from simply accepting that this is another massacre that should never have happened, should never be repeated, and yet probably will, if the past few decades are any indication.

22. I don’t think that that made Israel, or the IDF, any less intent on putting a stop to the launches.
    Same as the Palestinians/Arab will never stop either, what the solutions then JES?
    You prod of your power? your country insulating and conspiring and assassinating in the Arab world and Israeli to be seen as the super power in the region all should fear here and surrender too her.
    I tell you this is not can happen, live with your dreams JES…
    Just for example.
    – Bombing Iraqi Nuclear Centre/ it’s an act of aggression.
    – Killing Yahya Al-Mashad Egyptian Born scientists in France by Mossad/ Its act of conspire and aggression
    – Destroying nuclear equipments as left ports from France on the way to Baghdad/Its acts of aggression and conspire.
    – War in Iraq and the following Israeli Rabies on the ground in Iraq with your Mossad doing and killing, conspiring inside Iraq.
    The acts of torturing collective punishments all sorts of acts that very similarly Israelis doing in Palestine there is no deference these acts tell us those the criminals are Israelis inside Iraq.
    When you stop these acts and behaving like other human being?

23. Yes Mike, collective punishment is wrong and does not work. Indiscriminate suicide bombings and firing Qassams into civilian areas for over three years is also collective punishment. I have not tried to justify collective punishment, and I think that it is your ideological bent that prevents you from recognizing this.
    I am not going to try to read Eli Moyal’s mind or interpret his words other than what he says. I think it is pretty clear that “An equation has to be created in which it is not worth it for the Palestinians to fire….” refers to the Palestinians who are firing the rockets, and I think that it is equally clear that the policy of the IDF is either prevent those combatants who intend to fire rockets from doing so and, barring that, to make certain that those who have already fired rockets do not do so again. In other words, to make it very unworth it for those combatants to carry out acts of violence.
    As for Lieberman, I do not agree with him and I think that under the law there is a strong case for barring him from the next elections based on his racist views. It would be nice if you showed the same concern for the views of the entire current Palestinian government whose platform is no less racist or extreme than those of Ivet Lieberman.
    Finally, the proportional argument is no better than the relativistic argument that you criticize. You want to keep it proportional? Okay, perhaps we should pull the IDF troops back and simply supply the residents of Sderot and Ashkelon with Qassam rockets and let them do as they please. Would that be satisfactory?

24. Mike,
    Why don’t take the Guardian at face value?
    Our friends in Jenin
    The US will only exert real pressure on Israel to reach a settlement if it feels its own interests are threatened
    Seumas Milne
    Thursday April 11, 2002
    The Guardian
    The stories of brutality and destruction filtering out of the Jenin refugee camp have become increasingly ominous. While independent observers have been kept out – along with ambulances and UN blood supplies – the Israeli army has rampaged its way through the hillside shanty town, overwhelming desperate Palestinian resistance. Hundreds are reported killed, including many civilians. As in other West Bank towns and camps, reports of beatings and executions of prisoners abound, and Israel appears to be preparing the ground for evidence of atrocities. Meanwhile, across the Arab world – where TV news footage of Ariel Sharon’s unleashing of state terror has been a good deal more graphic than what we have seen on our own screens – millions have demonstrated their fury at what is taking place, while their western-backed rulers have turned their guns on the streets, killing and injuring protesters from Bahrain to Alexandria.

25. The US will only exert real pressure on Israel to reach a settlement if it feels its own interests are threatened
    Really funny statement here, who is drives US foreign Polices?
    Those Henry Kissinger and Paul Wolfowitz, Peril and others are more Israelis than Israelis
    So there is no US own interests in regards to ME.

26. JES, you really out of the realty.
    for 70 years Israelis doing the killing in name of the Jewish State on Palestine Land and now your brother in religion (if you u are real Jew ) telling us your lies when you come the reality and admitting you are Israelis are criminals of killing innocents and your state is a Terrorist State and Racist State.
    Denile will not save you all the time ( JES حبــل الكــذب قصــير )

27. I always read salah’s comments but I rarely agree with them. Not that I would ever place myself with the camp of people like JES who continue to give us the relativistic argument that the Qassams justify the action that Israel is taking in Gaza. I’m not arguing that they can’t do something strong about it, JES, I’m saying that collective punishment has become the policy, and that things like Beit Hanoun are not just exceptions that infrequently occur.
    There is no such thing as relativism of moral values, and I have never said anything to the contrary. Just as suicide bombings (which, in case you forgot, Hamas stopped for many months inside Israel following a one-sided ceasefire (hudna)) are morally wrong no matter who does them, so is collective punishment of an entire population including the innocents who have nothing to do with the violence. But further, relativism is not completely devoid of any value as an evaluative concept. For would we not say that the country that has significantly more power and wealth and security and has barely any deaths in comparison to those they cause, is more responsible for bringing about a peaceful situation to the problem? Now, I know you might want to focus on this Sderot bombing, but still we’re at a ratio of 9 killings from rockets since 2004 to many hundreds since June 06. A death is a death. The country that has less deaths and greater power and shown willingness to create death is all the more damnable for abusing the power it has.
    “”An equation has to be created in which it is not worth it for the Palestinians to fire….” refers to the Palestinians who are firing the rockets”
    Again, you’re lying. Here is the original quote:
    “Eli Moyal, the mayor of Sderot, called for Gaza to be punished so its people would realise they could not afford to allow rocket fire on Israel. “An equation has to be created in which it is not worth it for the Palestinians to fire,” he told the Israeli daily newspaper Haaretz.”
    Gaza means the whole place. For these “people [who] allow rocket fire” is incredibly vague, it basically just means anyone, including any civilian, that can at the least doubt be thought to be responsible. If they strictly went after the militants, opened up a dialogue with them, eased the financial blockade, and made sure that they opened avenues of progress without punishing the whole Gaza population, they might make progress, but would at least be morally justified. We are past the age of David and Goliath, and what we are seeing in the world is a whole lot more Davids and a whole lot less Goliaths.
    Now as to salah, I do not agree that Israel is a “terrorist state.” It takes actions, like the US, that often kill or seriously endanger civilians in other peoples’ countries. It takes military actions that by default end up punishing the civilian population and breeding more extremism. But in this Israel has something in common, in an extreme form, with the US and Britain.
    So I agree in a mild version with Salah that Israel has many racists (towards Arabs) and does commit action that is state terrorism. But other people also take morally reprehensible actions against the Israelis, like the rocket attacks and suicide bombings. But this is where both salah and JES are wrong: relativism fails us here, because one morally reprehensible action does not justify another.

28. Sderot teen injured and woman killed in rocket attacks
    Defense Minister Amir Peretz’s bodyguards who was on duty at the time. Peretz resides near the street where the rocket landed.
    http://web.israelinsider.com/Articles/Security/9865.htm

29. Not just atrocities in Beit Hanun, Israel Destroyed 766-year-old Mosque in Beit Hanun
    “In a statement to the U.N. Observer website, the imam of the An-Nasr Mosque in Beit Hanun, Sheikh Sihda Abu Zreyk said that the mosque, which was established in 1240, was completely destroyed during the Israeli operation.
    The mosque was built after the Um An-Nasr war with the Crusaders between Gaza and Askelon, the imam explained.
    The targeting of places of worship during military operations is considered to be a war crime according to the 16th article of the Geneva Convention. Israel’s destruction of the mosque has revealed another aspect of the Israeli occupation in Palestinian territories.”
    http://www.turks.us/article.php?story=IsraelDestroyed766-year-oldMosque

30. -Lieberman is an ex-nightclub bouncer, once arrested for attacking a boy who he suspected of insulting his son.
    -His party, Yisrael Beytenu (Israel, Our Home), has campaigned on two ugly issues. The first is the claim that Israel’s two million Arab citizens are “a danger to the country”, to be dispensed with
    -Lieberman wanted to bus thousands of released Palestinian prisoners to the Dead Sea and drown them.
    -he has moderated his stance and merely wants to “transfer” many hundreds of thousands of Israeli Arabs – inevitably by force – to the scraps of remaining land that will be labelled Palestine after Israel has annexed the major illegal settlement blocks. If your name’s not on the list, you’re not staying in.
    -The silence that has greeted Lieberman’s appointment is a bleak sign of how far Israel has drifted to the right. In the 1980s, a fascist called Rabbi Meir Kahane emerged calling for a Lieberman-style “pure Jewish state” that was “cleansed of Arab contaminants”
    For the sake of the Palestinians, for the sake of Israel itself, now is the time for the world to jolt Israel, just as we jolted Austria back from its dark dance with the far right. But given how muted the world’s reaction has been to the collective punishment of Gaza and the destruction of Lebanon, what are the odds of that?
    http://www.johannhari.com/index.php

31. European Intellectuals Ask for Review of Relationship with Israel
    Wednesday, November 15, 2006
    Leading German and Austrian intellectuals called their countries to review the special relationship established with Israel following the Holocaust.
    A group of German and Austrian scientists and intellectuals, including Professor Udo Steinbach, Professor Jorg Becker and Eric Schmidt Engboom issued a proposal titled “Manifesto of the 25.”
    European intellectuals voiced their opposition to the special relationship between Germany and Israel, defined as unconditional support for its existence and welfare due to the Holocaust, even if Israel violated international law and human rights.
    http://www.zaman.com/?bl=international&alt=&hn=38293

32. For would we not say that the country that has significantly more power and wealth and security and has barely any deaths in comparison to those they cause, is more responsible for bringing about a peaceful situation to the problem?
    Mike, I can agree with you that collective punishment is wrong. I can agree that Israel needs to reexamine how it deals with issues such as Qassams. I can agree with a lot of things, but I cannot agree with the above statement. It simply has no basis in fact, and it has no moral basis. The “meek” will not inherit the earth simply because they are meek. (And the Palestinians have hardly been meek for much of the past 100 years.)
    Israel has a responsibility. But so do the Palestinians, and their responsibility is no less simply because they are week economically and militarily. I remind you that the shelling of Sderot has been going on for over three years. Rockets were fired when Gaza was occupied, and they continued to be fired after the last Israeli left Gaza. The rockets were fired during your much vaunted one-sided hudna, and they continued to fall during the tahadiyya. They were fired while Fatah was in power, and they are being fired while a racist, reactionary government who openly advocates ethnic cleansing is in power.
    One thing you forget in your coldly calculated 9:1 ratio is that the majority of those killed on the Palestinian side were combatants.

33. “The meek will not inherit the earth …. ”
    Your arrogance has led you to re-writing the Sermon on the Mount?
    I’m thinking that an Israeli apologist for the increasingly brutal 40-year military occupation of Palestine doesn’t really have much of a grip on what is moral and what isn’t. JES, why don’t you limit yourself to a meditation on what kind of life you are living right now in Israel: do you really want to go on living like this, in constant dread of rockets and suicide bombers? If you don’t then you’ll have to think of some other policy than “an eye for an eye” —
    (Although, come to think of it, that scripture maybe does have something to teach you. It is ONLY an eye for an eye. If your enemy injures your eye you are not morally allowed to kill him and his entire family. You are only allowed to injure his eye in return.)

34. Dearest Brenda,
    Thank you very much for your sermon.
    It is, indeed, interesting whenever I encounter people like you and Helena with your self-important, supercilious tones calling us “arrogant”. What makes you think that those of us living in the region (both Israelis and Palestinians) don’t think, daily, about the kind of lives we, our children and grandchildrend should have.
    I suggest you go back and actually read what I wrote and then meditate on it.

35. I have no idea what the background of this incident was. But I can speak to the technical aspects of this shelling.
    First of all, 5 or 6 shells is not a lot. It’s one per gun for a six gun artillery battery. I mean, it’s a hell of a lot if you’re the one getting shelled, but not from the gunners’ POV. If the gunners were trying to hit a rocket firing team, and the mission they were given as a “fire for effect – battery one round” then all 5 or 6 rounds would have hit the same place.
    Second, the mean point of impact has little to do with the fuze setting and a lot to do with the computed location of the first round. If the initial map spot was wrong the shells will miss. If there’s no eyes on the target the shells will continue to land until the end of mission or someone (either an observer or the battery FDC) ceases firing.
    So – what I suspect happened is that some Palestinian rocketeers loosed off a volley, the IDF duty battery returned fire, the location of the target was either given wrong to the FDC or the initial impact point was plotted wrong and a bunch of innocent people got killed.
    It is a tragedy but it’s not murder.
    Frankly, IMO this is what happens when two tough, smart, persistent groups of people want the same piece of real estate. Two hundred years ago it would have just come down to genocide or conquest and the winner would have moved in and that would have been that. That’s not going to happen, and it’d be nice if both sides would realize that, get over their anger at the past and dislike of each other and work something out. THAT’S not going to happen, either, at this rate, so these tragedies will continue into the indefinate future.
    That’s just sad.

36. JES, it is not me or my children or my grandchildren who is living in the war zone. It is you. Therefore, it behooves you, not me, to do the work of meditation on your situation. I suggest that you start where you are, in Israel.
    As you well know, there is a longstanding, well-developed Israeli peace bloc. They’ve done some impressive work on developing alternatives to continuing the war. The most outstanding product is the Geneva Initiative. This was a full “shadow Cabinet” negotiation with the other side. It took over a year to do the negotiations. Both sides gave for the sake of themselves, their children and their grandchildren. The Palestinian negotiators gave up the right of return. The Israeli negotiators gave up land and paid reparations. Why don’t you come down off your high horse, for the sake of your children and your grandchildren?

37. Dear Brenda,
    Thank you very much for your suggestions. Thank you, also, for enlightening me about the Geneva Accord.
    As it turns out, I have been an open supporter of both the Geneva Accords and the Mifkad Leumi.
    Although I would disagree with you that the Palestinian negotiators gave up the right of return in Geneva, I do agree that compromise and flexibility are important for both current and future generations.
    If you bothered to either read what I have posted here or to simply ask, you would know that I couldn’t give two hoots about holding on to the West Bank or East Jerusalem, and certainly not Gaza. You would also know that I think that the compromise the Israeli negotiators made regarding the right of return under the Geneva Accords is quite workable, creative and well thought out.
    But you, Helena and other outsider ideologues don’t look too far beyond the surface. You simply take any statement that doesn’t jibe with your line as a sign that a person is an out and out rightwing racist who is against compromise. In this case, what appears to have set you off is the fact that I suggested that morally, the Palestinians also have obligations and that they are responsible for their actions. This would appear to run counter to what appear to be your patronizing, self-rightousness. I suggest you meditate on that!

38. JES I don’t think I’ve ever accused you of being an out and out rightwing racist who is against compromise so that accusation seems a little unfair. (Ditto with regard to Brenda.)
    I am certainly heartened to learn from you here that you couldn’t give two hoots about holding on to the West Bank or East Jerusalem… Would it not be a good idea, therefore, to explore more fully in this or another public forum the consequences– for both Palestinians and Israelis– of Israel’s having held onto these areas (technically speaking, one continuous area) for nearly 40 years now; of its current policies of control of these areas; and the prospects for the continuation of this foreign occupation of non-Israeli land for the foreseeable future?
    Israel’s control of the West Bank, East Jerusalem, and Gaza and the settler-implanting, resource-raiding policies pursued there have, as you must surely be aware, had devastating consequences for these areas’ Palestinian residents, ending and permanently blighting far too many lives and building up huge reserves of fear, despair, distrust and, yes, hatred toward Israel. And maintaining this foreign occupation has also had a huge impact on the quality of the Zionist/Israeli project.
    Many Israelis on the “left-ish” side of the political spectrum– not quite sure where or what that is nowadays; but let’s anyway say the “anti-occupation-ish” side– kind of know these moral facts about the occupation and the effects on both peoples of its prolongation. But there seems a terrible reluctance to give any kind of public acknowledgement of these moral facts. You’d be amazed how much more powerful your own voice of conscience would be if you were prepared to do that in public.
    For my part, I simply know as an American that I would find it much, much harder to maintain the integrity of my activism against the US occupation of Iraq if I tried to avoid giving any recognition of the terrible effects our occupation has had on Iraqis (and Americans). Why should I or any other American ever expect Iraqis to temper their hostility to Americans if I were unwilling to undertake the simple human action of saying to them, “I recognize that my government’s actions have harmed you terribly; I feel terrible about the pain you are suffering; andf I intend to do all I can both to end the US occupation of your country and to start to repair some of the terrible damage the occupation has inflicted on you.”
    (This, despite the fact that I know that Iraqi insurgents have killed and maimed many American men and women; and despite the huge empathy that I feel toward those affected by these attacks. That empathy, however, does not for me cancel out the need to empathize also with the Iraqis’– far greater– suffering. Indeed it just amplifies my sense of how damaging the policy of maintaining the occupation has been.)
    Are you prepared to make some analogous statement toward the Palestinians of the occuped territories?

39. Would it not be a good idea, therefore, to explore more fully in this or another public forum the consequences– for both Palestinians and Israelis– of Israel’s having held onto these areas (technically speaking, one continuous area) for nearly 40 years now; of its current policies of control of these areas; and the prospects for the continuation of this foreign occupation of non-Israeli land for the foreseeable future?
    Frankly, I don’t think that what you are suggesting is a practical approach for those of us who are genuinely concerned with arriving at a peacful solution and living as good neighbors.
    You want to dwell on the 40 year occupation and place blame on Israel. However, you don’t particularly want to deal with what led to that occupation. Although you apparently do want to skip the 19 year period immediately prior and look at the nakba from your own narrow perspective, while not taking into account a range of events between approximately 1929 and 1939 that changed the perspective of most Zionists concerning the desirability of a bi-national state in all of Palestine.
    I think it would be much more productive to do as Yossi Beilin and Yassir Abdu Rabo, and others did in putting together the Geneva Accords – discuss the future and not dwell on the past to find blame, because there’s plenty of blame to go around.
    And I still maintain that people like you and Brenda need to either lose the patronizing approach that maintains that the Palestinians have to do absolutely nothing and hold absolutely no responsibility for their actions, or just keep your thoughts to yourselves if you are really interested in helping our two nations achieve peace. That, by the way, is what I meant about the meek having to do something other than simply be meek to “inherit the earth”.
    As far as making statements go, what do you see as the purpose? And perhaps you would like to demand the same sort of statements from my neighbors?

40. BTW Helena, have you ever sipped a latte, or are your an herbal tea sipper?

41. JES, I agree with a lot of what you say about the need to focus on justice and accountability going forward.
    I don’t completely agree that the Geneva Initiative was the one perfect model around which all anti-occupation activities should focus.
    But let’s get together when I’m in Israel in February and discuss these matters as we sip the beverages of our choice?

42. How self-righteous it must feel to continuously blame the victim, as JES and Joshua do. There is no way around the fact that Israel occupies Palestinian land. Israel is an occupying force, no different from the Nazis in France or the Soviets in Eastern Europe. The only difference is that the US taxpayer foots much of the bill for the bullets needed to keep the natives in line. Another difference is that the jews have a stranglehold on much of the US media and certainly the US Congress. And just like many Germans and Russians, the Israelis also believe their own propaganda.
    The Israeli Occupation Force (IOF)is used to keep the occupied population in line, it is not used to protect the state against an external threat. I have never heard of any country using their “defense” forces to bomb an occupied country. The IOF is an occupying army, no different from the Soviet army in Hungary or the Nazi army in Norway.

43. JES,
    skip the 19 year period immediately prior and look at the nakba from your own narrow perspective, while not taking into account a range of events between approximately 1929 and 1939 that changed the perspective of most Zionists concerning the desirability of a bi-national state in all of Palestine.
    JES you looks you hooked to the past and you thinks that “1929 and 1939 that changed” as achievements by Israelis which wildly questionable of its legality…
    Motherless in other side yo ignoring the perspective changed that the Arab taken from 1967 till now and most recent one the Lebanon war and how many Arab states understand what’s going one and distances themselves from troublemakers in the region.
    Look to Israeli changes in comparison to Arab changes we see the opposite Israeli increased here brutality against Palestinians also here interfering in Iraq occupation.
    So the reality Arabs see no window of opportunity that Israel really needs to offer them to come forwards to make peace and “Two State solution.
    I would highlight the recent talk by French Spain and Italy proposal of starting peace talk in ME which Israelis is very fast to reject without any well to look at it’s with wider international community to sole this complex problem.
    Also the offer that agreed by the Arab League of King Abdullah peace proposal which Israelis ejected also.
    This put us all in dispar what rally Israel need then?
    What ever what Israeli thinks they should come to the reality of our time now and leave the dreams they had in their heads other wise there will be no peace for handers of years to come.

44. JES reinterprets the role of “the meek” in the Sermon on the Mount:
    “just keep your thoughts to yourselves if you are really interested in helping our two nations achieve peace. That, by the way, is what I meant about the meek”
    Translation: Just sit there and say nothing, don’t bring up any contrary facts, don’t recall yesterday’s injustice, don’t speak truth to power … simply wear these blinders, look straight ahead into the future, and accept that Israel’s national plan is the standard … a plan for one nation that is compatible with the interests of that other nation called Palestine.
    Wow! The Messiah should have thought of this approach to righteous pacifist action for the sake of justice. JES is a genius!
    Irony Alert.
    It is so obvious that those who founded Israel and those who continue to work for Israel righteously had (and still have) the just interests of the Palestinian majority in heart. Meaning all those Muslims, Christians, and Jews who lived on the land together for centuries. This obvious point is the reason why the founders of Israel changed the name of Palestine when they established their own state in 1948, and then spent decades denying that Palestine or the Palestinian people even exist.
    Bigger Irony Alert.
    Gosh, JES, if you can convince a demographic majority like the Palestinian Muslims, Christians, and Jews to just sit there and forget their centuries old social and cultural identities and lifeways, then anything becomes possible. It could work like magic. Perhaps JES even foretells miracles from heaven. Is it so JES? Nah. He’s just spouting the usual Hasbaristo brainwashing propaganda.

45. Oh, this is simply delightful! I expect to drift off to sleep tonight with a beguiling image of JES and Helena sipping lattes, or whatever, in a Jerusalem cafe.
    I think the important point about the Geneva Accord isn’t the agreement arrived at, it is the negotiations that led to the agreement. In the face of intransigent government bodies on both sides, qualified volunteers from both sides acted to give their governments a model and a lead in the right direction. And it really was hard work. The document itself is huge and exhaustively detailed. It’s worth taking a look at, Wikipedia has the link. I am full of admiration for the Israelis and Palestinians who conceived of this plan and saw it through to completion. Maybe the agreement isn’t perfect, or isn’t perfectly acceptable, but it still has value. It could be a great place to start from.

46. Brenda, way to go, girl! Yes, JES and Helena share the same interest in sipping lattes.
    Just like black is white, and the Geneva Accord is a “fair and balanced” solution to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict because, after all, both sides “negotiated,” so it is fair. Right?
    Wikipedia says so, thus it must be true. Right?
    Gosh, Brenda, do you live in Sun Valley or like JES in the Tel Aviv suburbs?
    Or perhaps you are related to JES, Vadim, Joshua, Davis, David, etc.?

47. Sd,
    I think you need to work on you reading comprehension skills.
    But now that you’re here, I guess this thread has gone to hell anyway.

48. JES-
    Coming from you, I will take that as a compliment of the highest order.

49. changed the perspective of most Zionists concerning the desirability of a bi-national state in all of Palestine.
    All the Jew around the world has the Right to Returns to the Promise Land but those Palestinians how lived for generations on same land they should forget their Right to Return and leave Palestinian’s land to the new occupier…
    Just wonder, why Saddam forced out from Kuwait? Kuwait was a land follow Basra city for centuries its part of Mesopotamian land…

50. That’s your best comeback, JES. I expected better than such transparent impersonation of the “other.” It’s now late in this part of the world, so I’m headed for bed.

51. JES:
    perspective of most Zionists concerning the desirability of a bi-national state in all of Palestine.
    How much truth in JES’s statement he made it earlier about Lieberman when he side:
    As for Lieberman, I do not agree with him, he still thinking as most Zionists about Promise Land…..
    Helena its worth when you finish sipping lattes with JES, please write a post to tell us the scarifies of one Israeli
    “I don’t suggest transferring the refugees by force,” Lieberman emphasizes. “But I suggest forcing the Arab countries to absorb the refugees. The Americans knew very well how to force Saudi Arabia to let them use its territory for the attack on Iraq. The Arabs accommodate themselves to international decisions, when they know they are facing a large and serious force. They can bend. We have to be able to bend them without being afraid of public opinion all the time.”

52. وإلى اليوم لا يوجد تحديد رسمي في الدستور الإسرائيلي حول ماهية اليهودي أو تحديد لجغرافية بلاده، فإسرائيل هي الدولة الوحيدة في العالم التي لا تنظر إلى نفسها باعتبارها ممثلة للمستوطنين فيها فحسب، وإنما باعتبارها «دولة الشعب اليهودي» في شتى أنحاء المعمورة، وكما ورد في «إعلان الاستقلال»، وبحسب «قانون العودة الإسرائيلي» فإنه يمكن لكل يهودي اكتساب الجنسية الإسرائيلية بمجرد الهجرة إليها بنية الاستيطان، إنه الحق الذي يمنح لليهود ويحجب عن أهل البلاد الأصليين، أي الفلسطينيين،
    https://vintage.justworldnews.org/archives/002223.html
    The Israeli constitution the only constitution in the world dose not mentions and indicates any singes for the borders of the Stat of Israel!
    So what the limits for the Israeli state borders then?

53. Sd, I’m not reading you, could you come in a little clearer please?
    In answer to some of your questions about me — I don’t live in California and I’m only related to the AIPAC/Israeli contingent through our common membership in the human race.
    My basic idea is to try to drive persistent trolls off the blog by really getting in their face and hitting them where it hurts. But if an opportunity arises to actually convert one of them to the peace block, then by all means go for it. Like, what could be better? Nothing wrong with establishing some common ground with an enemy, in fact that is the very essence of diplomacy and negotiation for a peaceful resolution.
    Seeing that little people like us have no control over our government — we don’t have enough money to buy it, unlike AIPAC — our only recourse is to engage directly with the little people on the other side.
    About the Wikipedia link — unfortunately, tragically, the original geneva-accord website has disappeared. I don’t know what happened to it, this is disturbing to me. Wikipedia gives links to the text of the document but the original website is irreplaceable in my opinion because it tells the story of how the negotiations came to be.
    Peace.

54. Brenda-
    Like I said, “you go girl.”
    It’s mighty big of you to acknowledge sharing membership in the human species with AIPAC members. I can hear the background music by Michael Jackson singing “We are the world!” Unlike those “big people” in AIPAC, you seem to suppose that we, the little people, have only one recourse: “to engage directly with the little people on the other side.” I can tell you still envision that one day in the future when we will all reach out and hold hands across the face of the earth.
    On the other hand, many of us “little people” have already reached the conclusion that dialogue and negotiations in the Middle East fail as long as the agenda is controlled by Israel’s guardians at AIPAC. Many of us are aware that dialogue and neogtiations have been taking place for 30+ years, and with absolutely no benefit for the Palestinian people. Palestinians have become excessively tired of patronizing do-good Americans like yourself.
    It is long past time that we Americans start acting like “big people.” We need to look the foreign leaders of Israel and their supporting cast at AIPAC straight in the face, refuse to blink, and finally compel Israel to fix its borders along the Green Line, accept shared sovereignty with the Palestinians in Jerusalem, perhaps an internationally administered Old City, and begin to provide equivalent billion dollar aid and assistance to a Palestinian government so the Palestinian people can get on with their lives.
    Of course, Brenda, you can keep reaching out to hold hands with the Palestinian people. That is still a nice thing to do. Also your role of getting in the face of persistent JWN trolls like JES, Vadim, Joshua, Davis, David is also a really nice thing to do. You go girl!!!

55. I always did like that Michael Jackson song. (sigh)

56. SD, Brenda tries to speak out against pro-Israeli hardliners, and you call her a “patronizing do-good American”??
    How are uninformed people in the United States ever going to be persuaded into seeing the Israeli-Palestinian issue fairly and defying AIPAC hardline view if you treat them like crap?
    Geez, SD, you’re hurting people trying to be on your side.

57. Equal Rights (lyrics)
    Everyone is crying out for peace, yes
    None is crying out for justice
    Everyone is crying out for peace, yes
    None is crying out for justice
    I don’t want no peace
    I need equal rights and justice
    I need equal rights and justice
    I need equal rights and justice
    Got to get it, equal rights and justice
    Everybody want to go to heaven
    But nobody want to die (father us Jesus)
    Everybody want to go up to heaven
    But none of them, none of them want to die
    I don’t want no peace
    I man need equal rights and justice
    I’ve got to get it, equal rights and justice
    I really need it, equal rights and justice
    Just give me my share, equal rights and justice
    What is due to Ceasar
    You better give it on to Ceasar
    And what belong to I and I
    You better, you better give it up to I
    Cause I don’t want no peace
    I need equal rights and justice
    I need equal rights and justice
    I’ve got to get it, equal rights and justice
    I’m a fighting for it, equal rights and justice
    Everyone heading for the top
    But tell me how far is it from the bottom
    Nobody know, but everybody fighting to reach the top
    How far is it from the bottom
    I don’t want no peace
    I want equal rights and justice
    I need equal rights and justice
    I’ve got to get it, equal rights and justice
    I really need it, equal rights and justice
    Everyone is talking about crime
    Tell me who are the criminals
    I said everybody is talking about crime, crime
    Tell me who, who are the criminals
    I really don’t see them
    I don’t want no peace
    I need equal rights and justice
    We’ve got to get equal rights and justice
    And there’ll be no crime, equal rights and justice
    There’ll be no criminals, equal rights and justice
    Everyone is fighting for equal rights and justice
    Palestine is fighting for equal rights and justice

58. Inkan-
    Shaking people free from “Neverland” fantasies is not hurting people who otherwise want to stand up for righteous causes.
    Indicating where good-hearted people should best apply their energies is not treating them like “crap.”
    Calling a patronizing do-good American by his or her proper name is not the same as labeling them with the kind of profanity that you use. It is to call a spade “spade.” Moreover it is a do-good thing to do.
    Patronizing do-good Americans have a view of the world that is distorted by that big log which is buried deep in their eyes.
    I encourage Brenda to “go girl,” but she should not waste her energy in ways that serve contrary purposes.

59. Get Up, Stand Up, stand up for your right
    Get Up, Stand Up, don’t give up the fight
    Preacher man don’t tell me heaven is under the earth
    I know you don’t know what life is really worth
    Is not all that glitters in gold and
    Half the story has never been told
    So now you see the light, aay
    Stand up for your right. Come on
    Get Up, Stand Up, stand up for your right
    Get Up, Stand Up, don’t give up the fight
    Most people think great God will come from the sky
    Take away ev’rything, and make ev’rybody feel high
    But if you know what life is worth
    You would look for yours on earth
    And now you see the light
    You stand up for your right, yeah!
    Get Up, Stand Up, stand up for your right
    Get Up, Stand Up, don’t give up the fight
    Get Up, Stand Up. Life is your right
    So we can’t give up the fight
    Stand up for your right, Lord, Lord
    Get Up, Stand Up. Keep on struggling on
    Don’t give up the fight
    We’re sick and tired of your ism and skism game
    Die and go to heaven in Jesus’ name, Lord
    We know when we understand
    Almighty God is a living man
    You can fool some people sometimes
    But you can’t fool all the people all the time
    So now we see the light
    We gonna stand up for our right
    So you’d better get up, stand up, stand up for your right
    Get Up, Stand Up, don’t give up the fight
    Get Up, Stand Up, stand up for your right
    Get Up, Stand Up, don’t give up the fight.

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