So anyway, Imshin, since you’re such a faithful reader of JWN, why don’t you tell us all here: How do you feel about what your society has become…
That you have a political leadership there in Israel that is prone to making emotional and ill-considered decisions to use massive lethal force against your neighbors in Lebanon?
That you have an entire, extremely lethal military apparatus that is primed to wreak havoc, death, and devastation on your neighbors, and that is staffed by individual operatives prepared to push the relevant buttons to activate hi-tech weapons that will directly kill civilians, sometimes tens or scores at a time?
That just such an operative pushed the button that killed my children’s second cousin Colette Rashed along with four other civilian refugees, one hors de combat Lebanese army soldier, and a Red Cross volunteer, near Joub Jannine just 11 days ago?
(What did any of them ever do to you, or anyone you care about, Imshin?)
How do you feel about the fact that members of your country’s armed forces used finely-tuned, highly targetable weapons to knock out power plants, water pumping stations, and other parts of the Lebanese infrastructure vital to the survival of the most vulnerable Lebanese civilians: the sick, the old, the weak?
That you yourself seem to have become– for at least a moment back there– a hate-filled proponent of mass death in Lebanon?
How do you feel about all this, Imshin? Don’t you feel, at least, that there might just possibly be a better way to order your country’s relations with its neighbors than through this extreme (and at the end of the day, extremely counter-productive) recourse to violence?
And now that your country’s leadership is in such a cul-de-sac, which way will you urge it to turn– toward greater use of violence, or toward– finally!– giving peacemaking a serious chance?
I think we’ll need to carry on this conversation here, Imshin,since for some reason you’ve closed down the comments on your blog…
32 thoughts on “This one’s for you, Imshin”
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Israelis and other pro-Israeli supporters don’t seem to understand the kind of argument you’ve provided here (or they willfully misinterpret it). When accused of killing civilians and trying to scare civilians into shedding support for popular resistance groups, they reply that Hezbollah uses the population as “human shields”. The problem is that, as this latest Amnesty International report points out, the civilian targets aimed at by Israel often have NOTHING TO DO with Hezbollah and it is a war crime to bomb civilian infrastructure for no military purpose.
The question these people need to be asked is, Do you believe that it is a war crime to bomb civilian infrastructure when it serves no military purpose? Is it legitimate to bomb civilians and destroy their country?
“The question these people need to be asked is, Do you believe that it is a war crime to bomb civilian infrastructure when it serves no military purpose? Is it legitimate to bomb civilians and destroy their country?”
one word – Haifa
No it is not acceptable to bomb civilians, so no amount of rhetoric can ever justify it in one case and condemn it in the other. Let’s get beyond somehow seeing Israel’s bombing of Lebanese civilians as anything more or less heinous than Hizbullah’s bombing of Israeli’s. Until such time as this honesty is apparent in these arguments, then it is impossible to take seriously one who comes down on one side or the other.
No one is trying to justify Hezbollah’s actions. They are crimes of war.
The question, though, is does Hezbollah’s crimes of war justify Israel’s? Does Hezbollah’s bombing of Haifa justify this attack on a known civilian convoy?
Also, Israel is a state actor with billions in American aid. MY money is allowing for these Israeli crimes of war. One does not justify the other.
Israel would have had large international support if they simply went after Hezbollah as best they could, without bombing milk-making factories, water factories, etc. We’re not debating the fact that they can go after Hezbollah.
Your comments show a common tactic of pro-Israeli supporters: reframing the debate and evading the question.
What Mike said. Yes. Also, friend Jim, check out what I wrote about the huge disparities between the two sides’ lethal capabilities, targeting capabilities, and actual harm and suffering inflicted, in this previous JWN post.
The one does not excuse the other. On either side. Both should be investigated.
But as Mike said, also: it’s MY tax money and MY government’s poodle-like political support that is supporting and undergirdng the choices that Israel makes. Hence, I certainly consider I have more standing asking these questions of Imshin than asking them of Muhammad Afif.
So Imshin, anyway, what is your answer to the questions posed?
Mike said: “Israel would have had large international support if they simply went after Hezbollah as best they could, without bombing milk-making factories, water factories, etc. We’re not debating the fact that they can go after Hezbollah.”
You are deluding yourself and making myth if you think that Israel would have had large international support if they had only “gone after” Hizbullah. Since when has Israel ever had large international support?
Yes, I reframed the debate to what I thought was a fairer balance. It’s not a tactic, its called argumentation.
Oh, right Jim. Let me be more clear. Amnesty Int’l would not have condemned Israeli crimes of war in bombing civilian infrastructure and civilians in a manner that had NOTHING to do with Hezbollah, had Israel solely gone after Hezbollah and sites related to Hezbollah. But I guess you don’t take Amnesty International very seriously in any case, as most Israel supporters think the world is against them and anything they do will be condemned.
This is not the case. We’re talking about a specific pattern of activity: bombing the hell out of civilian areas in order to “scare” them into changing their affiliations. This is wrong. An American-financed state should have hugely different standards than a guerilla resistance movement that is, by the way, fighting for Lebanese sovereignty (in a way that involves its committing crimes against civilians).
But as Mike said, also: it’s MY tax money and MY government’s poodle-like political support that is supporting and undergirdng the choices that Israel makes.
It needn’t. Why don’t you exercise a little civil disobedience and go on a tax strike? I suppose putting up web counters is lower risk.
“bombing the hell out of civilian areas in order to ‘scare’ them into changing their affiliations. This is wrong.”
It should be unnecessary to point out that this is exactly the definition of terrorism both in nature and in purpose.
I have to laugh. Imshin responds, quite in good humor, to the rediculous suggestion that either she or her husband is working for Israeli security, and Helena responds with a venomous attack. (Reminds me of Helena’s earlier assertion that one of the posters here was actually the editor of Commentary.)
Well, first of all, kol hakavod, Imshin.
Secondly, what makes you so certain, Helena, that the decisions in Israel were “emotional and ill-considered”? They may have been poorly implemented, but I haven’t seen any evidence that they were made based, as you imply, more on emotions than on consideration and thought – in fact most of the critcism has been that they were too carefully considered, which resulted unnecessary hesitation.
To be honest, you really haven’t demonstrated any apparent understanding of either Israeli society or its political system – particularly given your insular view from the American Colony Hotel and coming from someone – to paraphrase one of your own criteria – who couldn’t find her way from Neve Tzedek to the Ajami Quarter.
At any rate, I fully agree with Vadim here. Y’all have every right to protest in any way you like to your government for supporting us in, what many of us believe is a common fight. Refusing to pay your taxes is a great suggestion. But please spare us the smarmy preaching.
“one word – Haifa”
Not so fast, there, Mr. Jim. You really ought to look at the timeline before you make such ridiculous claims. Let me help you out here. The Hizballah rocketing of Haifa came AFTER Israel’s massive attack on Lebanon began. Therefore Haifa was a response, not the cause, of Israel’s latest crime against Lebanon.
Next time get your facts straight before you speak. Otherwise you will just look more and more like the typical mindless knee-jerk Israel apologist.
“one word – Haifa”
Not so fast, there, Mr. Jim. You really ought to look at the timeline before you make such ridiculous claims. Let me help you out here. The Hizballah rocketing of Haifa came AFTER Israel’s massive attack on Lebanon began. Therefore Haifa was a response, not the cause, of Israel’s latest crime against Lebanon.
Next time get your facts straight before you speak. Otherwise you will just look more and more like the typical mindless knee-jerk Israel apologist.
I get the impression there are no Israelis commenting on this forum who want to discuss how to recommence peace negotiations between Israel and her neighbours. I see posters who seem to be from Israel defend Israeli military action, argue about history, religion, race, tactics, propoganda, war crimes, or debate the blogger’s or other posters morality, motives, tastes and personalities.
The presence of the later topics is totally understandible if not taken to excess and its by no means all one-sided. But I dont understand the absence of the former.
Why is no-one who identifies themselves as being from this essential camp so far wanting to explore how to get the right parties back around the table with due authority to negotiate? Do they all think either the status quo or more war is the only way forward? If so, why? If not, how do you in Israel think progress can realisticly be made towards renewed, effective peace negotiations?
Roland,
Interesting observation, but I don’t think that your assessment is accurate.
As you will recall, I agreed with you that getting back to Taba was probably the best avenue, and that the Geneva Accords represented a forward step in addressing what I see as the main issues. Just to remind you, I specified the following three points that I feel are critical in the Accords:
1. Recognize Israel’s part in creating the Palestinian refugee problem
2. Recognize the part of the Arab governments and Arab League, as well as the Palestinian leadership in creating the Palestinian refugee problem
3. Recognize that there was a second refugee problem comprising Jews from Arab countries
I think that your resopnse to my assertion that there was, at the time, significant Israeli support for the Accords was to counter with poll results in an attempt to prove that this wasn’t so. I don’t agree, but I don’t think that this is resorting to arguing “about history, religion, race, tactics, propoganda, war crimes, or debate the blogger’s or other posters morality, motives, tastes and personalities”.
I think that a lot of the above “arguments” that you see result from pretty clear assertions by the bloggers and the majority of the posters here about the perceived character and responsibilities of Israel and Israelis. There is prescious little said here about what our neighbors want and what their responsibilities are, or should be, going into any negotiatiions. Perhaps you have some ideas on this? If you do, let’s hear them.
I know that I do, but I don’t want to be accused of simply arguing “history, religion, race, tactics, propaganda, [or] war crimes….”
I am interested, JES, that you describe my post here as a “venomous attack”. Could you explain?
Would you be happier with “highly confrontational”?
As usual there are enough sharply pointed foils here for all to use. The point, as always, is to get to the point, and not spin senselessly round in circles.
What is obvious is Imshin’s silence. Did Helena’s point strike too deep?
The last time JES Vadim Joshua and group spun their senseless circles round the point, JES wanted to remind us of one of Imshin’s earlier conclusions:
“So I’m supposed to be bothered about the usual lies being told about us by our enemies, those who wish us to cease to be? Excuse me if I don’t give a $%^&!”
This is the standard posture adopted by most Israelis and supporters of Israel. “The world be damned.” Even if everyone else living on the planet sees the facts, these facts are “just lies to us.” So the typical response, like Imshin’s lasst conclusion, is to say “$%^&! you.”
Here lies the problem. Israelis simply do not care to relate to the facts of the world like everyone else must relate to the the facts of the world. It’s a bunker mentality. Ostriches with their heads stuck in the ground.
If an Israeli’s perception is that everyone else wants Israel to “cease to be,” then there is no possibility for reasonable dialogue, sensible peace-making, sane relations between neighboring states. Ever since Israel adopted the revisionist’s course, and Begin, Shamir, Bibi, and Sharon became models of “heroic national leadership,” the country has sought exclusively to hold territory by its teeth, buried head first and blind in the sand.
Israelis simply do not care to relate to the facts of the world like everyone else must relate to the the facts of the world.
Excuse me, SD, I didn’t realize that you were the arbiter or what the “facts of the world” are. I suppose I’m just not seeing the subtle nuances in Ahmadinejad’s and Nasrallah’s statements or in the explicit writings in the Hamas Covenant.
Did my point strike too deep for you, JES? I was addressing Imshin, but you can keep spinning in circles and circles.
Yesss.. JES…we get it already. The larger and singular ‘fact’ you and the Echo Chamber constantly want us to bear in mind is the existential threat from “those Muslim bogeymen” in Palestine, Syria, Lebanon, and Iran.
Keep spinning, but in the meantime we will wait to hear from Imshin.
I am an old man now who favored the creation of the state of Israel without understanding its long-term consequences. War after war after war. And, even though our President won’t admit it, Israel is at the center of Moslem anger and hatred because of the outrageous things it continues to do. I really appreciated Helen’s description of the steps Israel needs to take if it ever hopes to find peace. If Israel continues to put all its hopes in terror and violence, its foundation will be one of the worst mistakes of the twentieth century. Bill
“bombing the hell out of civilian areas in order to ‘scare’ them into changing their affiliations. This is wrong.”
It should be unnecessary to point out that this is exactly the definition of terrorism both in nature and in purpose.- Shirin
not to mention it doesn’t work
Last month on CNN, someone was reporting from Israel on the rockets fired by Hizbollah and the damage done to civilian structures. The entire time she was talking, you could hear the Israeli tanks firing. So, were they using “human shields”?
After all, that military position was mighty darn close.
Personally, I think the “human shields” argument is a bunch of crap.
All of Lebanon, Israel, Gaza and the West Bank is so densely populated that anyone firing a rocket or dropping a bomb is targeting civilians.
And the Israeli forces killed the most civilians by far.
Susan,
Those weren’t tanks, they were 155mm Howitzers, and I know from experience that you can hear them quite clearly for miles.
JES were you there? Or were you able to distance the off screen AFV(s) and the calibre of ordnance fired, over your TV while as you said you were overseas, given that tanks can also fire indirect HE and the Mekava main weapon is of a similar calibre (120MM smooth bore)? Or was this reported elsewhere? How far for example were the 155MM SP howitzers from the domestic bomb shelters the girls with the felt pens in those famous photos came out of?
Roland,
I was only out of the country at the beginning of the war. But, first of all, I have friends in the artillery corps, and I know what they were firing. I also saw quite clearly on local television what the artillery was firing – self-propelled 155mm Howitzers. (BTW, tanks don’t have anywhere near the range as the self-propelled 155mm Howitzers, so if your assertion were correct, it would appear to invalidate Susan’s claims, because they would barely be able to lob a shell over the border from anywhere in close proximity to an Israeli population center.)
More important, I spent many nights in the north during the period 1984-2000 when there were almost nightly exchanges between the IDF and Hizballah. I know what they sound like, and I know how very far the “booms” of outgoing fire can be heard.
JES you skipped my last question above “How far for example were the 155MM SP howitzers from the domestic bomb shelters the girls with the felt pens in those famous photos came out of?
I know you use many batteries of 155MM SPs JES and that was the artillery firing over the border. Very wise for them not to cross it given events in the invasion. I also know the “booms” of either 120MM or 155MM guns can be heard for miles. I cannot however rule out that after sufficient exposure to the sound of both “reports” that one could not differentiate betwen them even as the background to a TV news item. I take it you are.
Also the effective main gun range of the Merkava series is 1.8 to 2.1 KM. However any boy knows that would be the direct fire range. It would not be the indirect fire range, unless for some reason these tanks are not capable of, or armed for such HE fire:
“The range where the main gun is considered effective in meters (most tanks have provisions for use as artillery (indirect fire) well-beyond this range if properly surveyed, sited, and provided with additional ammunition and equipment).”
So on your local TV, which you saw when you got back, where were the Howitzers in relation to the civilians in the same shot?
Modern tank guns are really high-velocity kinetic-energy vehicle- killing weapons, the days of using tanks for direct fire support of infantry are almost over, and are only really still around because of the idiosyncracies of Israeli interventions in Gaza, or American involvement in relatively unrestricted city-fighting like Falluja, and there, i.e. Gaza the ammunition of choice is flechette/”beehive” rather than HE. INdirect fire support using a tank’s main gun is something one would expect from 1940-something, since tank guns aren’t really dual purpose AP/HE low-trajectory/high trajectory any more, moreover, in a modern military, tanks have turret-mounted mortars for exactly this purpose.
Israeli artillery batteries around Kiryat Shemona were located in open fields around the town, as most press photographs–Michael Totten’s, most notably, indicate.
Pack of numskulls that made that linked comment above then I guess? Given its a list of modern AFVs. But Ok I guess the Merkava carries no straight HE only the “flechette?”
So they kids in Kiryat Shemona that we were told had just come out of bunkers after a five day bombardment were taken straight away up to a gun battery, by vehicle, to draw on those 155MM shells?
Other sites tell me these guns were firing counter battery, which tends to be a two way street. Certainly they would be a CB target themselves. Was it safe?
Gee Roland, I don’t know how the children got to what were clearly 155mm shells. Maybe you do.
Also, from what I saw, and from my familiarity with the area, I can only guess as to where the artillery was located, and that is pretty far from Kiryat Shmona and other populated areas. But, again, I don’t know. On the other hand, I have clearly seen both new shots and IAF shots of rockets being fired from within built-up civilian areas.
At any rate, I thought you wanted to stop arguing about “history, religion, race, tactics” and such. I stated my position and posed a pretty clear question to you earlier in this thread. Perhaps you’d like to respond to that?
And I thought “this thread” was for Imshin, as clearly marked above.
Imshin, oh Imshin, where did you disappear to?
I don’t have access to anything other than the standard references on Merkava loadout, such as Jane’s/Osprey etc.
Merkava Mk 4 is supposed to have a dual-purpose anti-personnel/anti-material round, along with the usual KE and HEAT. So I suppose regular Merks Mk 1,2, & 3 might not carry HE.
The idea that Hezbollah’s random firings might be “counter-battery” fire is laughable, given that # Israeli civilian dead > # of Israeli Artillerymen dead. The answer is that those artillery batteries were no more dangerous to hang around than the Arab neighborhood of Wadi Nisnas, Haifa, or the Al-Ittihad newspaper building. In fact, since Wadi Nisnas AND Al-Ittihad were both hit, we might suppose that Hezbollah has a specific enmity against Israeli artillerymen, Arab-Israeli working-class neighborhoods and Arab-Israeli-Communist newspapers that it does NOT bear against, say, children from Kiryat Shemona. Or they might just have been firing randomly into Israel.
Imshin is in all probability deliberately ignoring this thread in favor of posting fantastic vacation pics of northern Israel on her blog…
“At any rate, I thought you wanted to stop arguing about “history, religion, race, tactics” and such.
Well that’s a very fair point JES. Arguing such things is far less important that talking ME peace process, though it can serve less important purposes and who could stop it completely?
My first post today (which would have been mu second in this topic) was a reply to your question about non-Israeli bottom lines.
That currently missing comment had 3 hyperlinks in it, and so I got the stock “held over for approval” message from the server.” It is either still being held over, has been rejected, despite the links at least being perfectly kosher to my eye. So it may appear above after I make this post, or below I guess, if approved.
Otherwise I guess there was server problem. I thought I should wait for some confirmation or at least a hint of the problem before reposting, just in case it was rejected intentionally????
Helena?
“The volume is a bit choppy, since IDF artillery shelling at Hizbullah targets was pounding throughout the interview, and that kept redlining the automatic volume comtrol.
And then the Katyushas and mortars started firing back…”