It is almost beyond belief that Israel’s military has once again, in its massively disproportionate assault against Lebanon, hit a large group of very vulnerable Lebanese civilians who had sought shelter at Qana.
The last time that happened was in the crucial war of 1996, which was the turning point that (four years later) led to Israel’s unilateral (and ignominious) withdrawal from Lebanon.
I believe that Ehud Olmert, an untested leader eager to show his military “mettle”, ordered the present drastic over-reaction to a (relatively small) Hizbullah provocation as a way to demonstrate to his people that he is not “soft” on the Arabs. Also, to try to turn the tide of politics in Lebanon decisively against Hizbullah. It seems he had understood nothing of what occurred in the battle of 1996, and is still determined– at huge and quite unacceptable cost to Lebanon– to repeat almost all the same grisly strategic mistakes that Israel (when the militarily untested Shimon Peres was PM) made that year.
Just as the assault ordered by Peres in 1996 turned out to be a strategic defeat for Israel, so too does Israel’s present action in Lebanon appear to be turning out the same way.
In Haaretz today, veteran israeli strategic analyst Zeev Schiff writes (and sorry, no link) that Condi Rice,
- needs military cards, and unfortunately Israel has not succeeded to date in providing her with any. Besides bringing Hezbollah and Lebanon under fire, all of Israel’s military cards at this stage are in the form of two Lebanese villages near the border that have been captured by the IDF.
If the military cards Israel is holding do not improve with the continuation of the fighting, it will result in a diplomatic solution that will leave the Hezbollah rocket arsenal in southern Lebanon in its place. The diplomatic solution will necessarily be a reflection of the military realities on the ground.
I find these words interesting from a number of perspectives. First, Schiff is admitting that– for all the destruction Israel has rained on the Lebanese citizenry over the past 17 days– still, they have been able to take and hold only two Lebanese villages. (I note that he seems to measure “military cards” almost wholly in terms of facts established on the ground, an analytical judgment that I agree with.)
Second, he seems clearly to be urging the Israeli military command to establish more “facts on the ground” than they already have.
Third, he is writing from the clear premise that there is close coordination between the Bush administration’s diplomacy and Israel’s military actions. In one sense, we all know this to be true at this point. The Bushites have clearly been holding up the attempts to get a ceasefire as a way of giving the Israeli assault more time to continue. But Schiff is saying something a little different from this. He is saying not so much that American diplomacy has been buttressing Israel’s military interests as that Israel’s assault has been serving the Bushites’ broader diplomatic interests (even if, from his perspective, they have not yet done so enough.)
Schiff is a very smart and well-informed person, but on occasion he acts a bit as a mouthpiece for the Israeli military’s propaganda. Is the Israeli military now trying to tell the world that they have been doing everything they’ve been doing over the past 17 days as a “service” to the Bush administration?
Anyway, as I’ve written before, for every day this fighting continues, the death and suffering will continue. In Qana, elsewhere in Lebanon and Palestine, and in Israel (though on a far smaller scale). The idea that all this suffering does anything to “serve” the interests of the US citizenry is outrageous.
- (I’m enroute back to the US, currently overnighting in London. This slaughter in Qana, once again, is deeply disturbing. I’m still trying to get my head around it. I do know that Shimon Peres and his commanders were never ever held accountable for the Qana slaughter of 1996. I interviewed him in 1998 and asked him about it. He tried to blow off all responsibility for it, saying something to the effect that “We told the Lebanese to leave south Lebanon on that occasion so everything we did after that was quite legal and okay.” They’ve used this “warning people to leave their homes” PR maneuver again this time. It does not exculpate the Israeli commanders and leaders one iota and certainly provides no excuse under international law for their actions. It’s an outrage: people– including vulnerable young families, elders, and the sick, should be ordered away from their homes on the whim of a foreign military? And then, how on earth are they supposed to leave in safety if no safe access is afforded them? The whole argument is deeply manipulative and dishonest.)
In latest reports, Israel doesn’t even hold the two villages, and apparently never did control them. More interestingly, the vaunted Israeli Army ran from Hizbollah in combat. So Israel can bomb helpless civilians from afar, while their soldiers are–to put it crudely–cowards.
The excuse this time is that Hizbollah was firing rockets into Israel from Qana. Remember this is supposedly where Jesus performed the miracle of turning water into wine at a wedding feast. Now it is a killing field for the Israeli Air Force armed and funded by taxpayers in the US. It is very disturbing.
NON-RECOGNITION WATCH
Number of days that Israel declared its independence and the overwhelming majority of Arab and Muslim nations have refused to recognize that nation’s right to exist in peace.
21,261
No question that Arab states have been, to say the least, reluctant to recognize the arrangements imposed upon the region in 1948. But note too that the Saudis have been pushing the so-called “Beirut” plan that would recognize Israel, within the 1967 boundaries. Rather than talk about a reasonable proposal, the Israelis (and the US) seem to prefer bombs.
I see that NOW Israel is agreeing to a suspension of bombings. The Olmert government seemed to be downplaying civilian casualties to make people ignore them, but this catastrophe can’t be ignored.
Curiously this phrase goes through my mind now: “It’s always only a game until someone gets hurt”…
The Israeli public needs to demand accountability from their military, for the very compelling evidence of incompetance and callous disregard for civillian life.
You know something, Joshua, I want out of the Grand Guignol of your “national narrative”. I don’t want to pay for it. I don’t want any more American blood to be spilled for it. I don’t want my country bent out of shape because of it. I don’t even want to listen to it. Take your special pleading and logic chopping somewhere else. The Bible Belt for example. You and the Rapturists can get stuck in. Dream those dreams. End times, ethnic cleansing…brought to you – that’s you, not me, got that? – by the Great Realtor in the Sky.
And while we’re at it – and since in this instance it’s glowing like a bad lobster in a cellar – let’s take a peek at that curious word, “nation”. Comes from the Latin natio…to be born. It’s my impression that almost all of the Israelis 21k and however many days ago weren’t born in Palestine. Whereas almost all of the Palestinians were. No wonder they call 1948 “the catastrophe”. And you seem to think there’s something unreasonable about why they feel the way they do. Well, you get on with it. You and the Rapturists. And the IDF. Just make sure you steer well clear of me and mine when you’ve done it.
In closing. And I’m speaking stonily here. And coldly. If you detected any “warmth” in those first two paragraphs, hey you got it, Joshua. And you know something…it’s “warmth” that’s taken a quantum leap in the last 20 days. Nor is mine an isolated “hot spot”. Which I suppose is by way of saying, given the din of the echo chamber and the height of the walls round the thought prison that Israel and its supporters have mewed themselves up in I can’t imagine that anybody is inclined, let alone able to take an accurate “reading” of how “recent developments” are going down with the rest of us, so let me spell it out for you: what Israel is doing to Lebanon is queering the pitch real bad.
From what I am hearing now, it seems that the Israelis have not even been able to hold onto the villages of Marun Ar Ras and Bint Jubail, but have – as they put it – “redeployed”. In other words, they have been forced to put their tails between their legs and run. Their claims that they “met their objectives” there looks like pure, empty bravado.
Wow, ‘twemlow,’ that’s some purple prose. You remind me of that upharsin/roland chap. I wish he’d go back to reviewing films. I just rented ‘Breaking the Waves’ and I’m dying to read his impressions. But I don’t think threatening Joshua with smouldering stares is likely to convince him of anything, just as his ‘counter’ resonates with no-one here; appealing as it does to the ongoing existential threat you consider just and appropriate and perfectly legal.
Small point of style: it’s tasteless to describe Israel’s welcome withdrawal from Lebanon as “ignominious;” vicarious triumphalism anyone? Right up there with swooning over Hezbollah’s audacity, bravery, genius and cute uniforms.
It is surprising to me that people who condemn Israel now for bombing civilians accidentaly, have not raised any voice for two weeks when Hizbolla fired rockets at Israeli towns and villages with the exppress intent of hitting civilians. If it is legitimate to target civillians, why complain? if it isn’t, why did not you cry out before? What is Israel’s fault? that it protected its civilians better?
Also, Hizbolla attacks on civilians are intentional, without warning. Israel on the other hand have been issuing warnings to all civilians in Kafr Qana and other parts of southern Lebanon to leave their homes because tha Hizbola was using them as Human shields.
Wow Temlow!
I simply pointed out that it has been 21,261 since Israel declared its independence that its neighbors have refused to recognize its right to live in peace. Which has led to much of the death, destruction and displacement you bemoan.
I’m not sure what “special pleading” I am asking for. I am just asking that the one Jewish nation in the Middle East be given recognition and peace. It’s based on the theory of “human equality now.”
Your rant was just bizarre. But Helena likes it when invective, even mindless invective, is spewed toward Israel.
First of all, Eytan’s point is quite correct. Nasrallah, in his speech on Saturday, bragged about having forced one million Israelis out of their homes and another million into bomb shelters. Hizballah is clearly targeting civilians, and I would like to hear from all the progressive supporters of “The Party of God” here exactly what they would consider a “proprotionate” response to Hizballah aggression.
I actually heard Zev Schiff speaking about his article, and I think that he was actually criticizing the slow pace that the government had adopted and its reliance on air power alone and not, as has been suggested, with the number of villages occupied by the IDF.
Two additional comments.
First to Dick Fitzgerald. If you actually look and listen, Israel does not intend or wish to occupy Lebanon. The IDF did not “run” from anyone (despite Nasrallah’s posturing under strain). The idea has not been to hold a certain number of villages or a specified amount of real estate in the south. Rather it is to decimate Hizballah’s fighting forces and ability to launch rockets on Israel’s civilian population. The IDF appears to be achieving both of these goals, but not at the pace that many media outlets would like to see.
Secondly to Sylvia Demerest. The Kfar Qana (or Cana) that you are referring to is next to Nazereth in Israel (where, two children were killed while playing by a Hizballah rocket attack last week). It is not the Hizballah-controlled village of Kufr Qana in Lebanon.
If Israel’s bombing of civilians is accidental, then the Israeli military must be the most accident prone military in the history of mankind. They seem only able to bomb civilians, and it looks like the fighters they hit are the “collateral damage”.
I would like to ask this informed forum what they think would be an appropriate reaction, also what they think would be the actual reaction of:
1 England to rockets targetting civilians in Liverpool?
2. Germany to rockets targetting civilians in Dusseldorf?
3. France to rockets targetting civilians in Lyon?
4. US to rockets targetting civilians in San-Diego?
And please feel free to use your imagination and add more options to the list above.
To JES,
Israel has performed over 1000 aircraft sorties in Lebanon in the last two weeks. Can you imagine what would happen in Lebanon if Israel cared for the Lebanese civilians the same way as Hizbolla cares for Israeli citizens?
Do you think that Israeli citizens are not hurt by rockets because Hizbolla is trying to spare them?
JES, I’m sorry, Imeant to respond to Shirin.
I would also like to offer you all this appology, on behalf of Israel (I presume ofcourse):
Sorry we did not know that it was only legal to kidnap soldiers and rocket cities when we entered this conflict.
Eytan,
Pls read my post again. We agree. I am within Zelzal range.
Israel has no right to exist. Israel is a settler colony.
Eytan,
Your question is absurd on its face since if Israel cared at all for Lebanese civilians they would not have flown over 1000 sortees into Lebanon in two weeks using the capture of two soldiers as an excuse. They also would not have violated Lebanese territory on land and in the air multiple times each week since the withdrawal, bombing inside Lebanon, destroying civilian property, or shooting innocent civilians who just happened to get in their way.
However, since you asked, if Hizbollah cared for Israeli civilians the way Israel cares for Lebanese civilians then instead of perhsps 50% of the victims of their attacks being civilians, somewhere around 85-90% would be civilians. In addition, around 33% of those they killed would be children, and most of the rest would be women.
Eytan,
One thing further. If Hizbollah cared for Israeli citizens the way Israel cares for Lebanese citizens then instead of capturing Israeli soldiers and holding them prisoner for a few days or weeks, it would kidnap Israeli civilians – tens of them – and hold them for years at a time to use as “bargaining chips”.
Shirin, “on the face of it” your argument is absurd.
All of the nearly 2000 rockets fired by Hizbollah over the past two weeks have solely targeted civilians, and the vast majority of casualities have been civilians. As Nasrallah himself bragged on Saturday night, one million civilians have been driven from their homes and another million have been confined to shelters for nearly three weeks.
Israel has not violated Lebanese territory “multiple times each week”, as you say, since the withdrawal in 2000. The fact that Hizballah routinely fires its antiaircraft guns over Israel routinely in a show of force, rather than in response to actual incursions, is not Israel’s fault. Further, prior to the current crisis, Hizballah has carried out at least two unprovoked armed incursions into Israeli territory.
Hizballah does not have a history of holding kidnapped soldiers for a “few days or weeks”. In the last case, three soldiers were kidnapped in 2000 and only their bodies were returned after several years (and it has still not been made public exactly when and how these soldiers died or what kind of treatment they were subject to prior to their deaths).
I would be interested in knowing exactly which kidnapped Lebanese civilians are currently being held by Israel. I am aware of Samir Qantar who, far from being kidnapped, led an armed raid into Israeli territory during which he personally shot and killed an innocent man in front of his four yearold daughter prior to smashing her head against a wall.
One thing further. If Israel cared for Lebanese civilians the way Hizballah cares for Israeli citizens, then I guess Israelis would have been dancing in the streets following the recent tragedy in Kfar Qana.
So even today Israelis stand angrilly over the broken bodies of more lebanese children. They complain people are saying they are worse than terrorists. The “other kid started it”, so “its all his fault.” Playground whining from murderers. What we are saying is you are no better. You will get equal symapthy when we see equal suffering. All war criminals deserve our contempt. No difference. Just as unworthy of sympathy and clearly just as incapable of empathy. And your presenting hair splitting arguments like Mob lawyers just enrages us more.
Not forgetting the heroic 8% among you that disagree with this slaughter:
“Allow us to tell you that your films, which we try to see and circulate among us, are extremely important in our eyes. They enable us to know and understand you better. Thanks to these films, the men, women, and children who suffer in Gaza, Beirut, and everywhere else our army exercises its violence – have names and faces. We would like to thank you and encourage you to keep on filming, despite the difficulties.” (Letter to Palestinian and Lebanese filmmakers from Israeli filmmakers Open letter, Various, 22 July 2006)
Where have all these thousands of carefully aimed precision bombs fallen , and why? How does a soldier hide behind a baby? Try hitting your declared enemy maybe? How many times do you have to blow up each rusty old WW2 katushya short range unguided rocket launcher?
Mitch Prothero in Salon.com on the myth that Hizbullah hides among civilians.
“Throughout this now 16-day-old war, Israeli planes high above civilian areas make decisions on what to bomb. They send huge bombs capable of killing things for hundreds of meters around their targets, and then blame the inevitable civilian deaths– the Lebanese government says 600 civilians have been killed so far — on “terrorists” who callously use the civilian infrastructure for protection.But this claim is almost always false.”
People have been surprised by all the pro Israeli posts and snap poll votes on the internet, when there is such widespread loathing amd outrage at their repugnant actions.
Don’t be.
Vadim. I dont know who the “upharsin” you mention above is, but the meaning of this nickname “diving your kingdom” (?)sounds like a good idea in some cases. If you wish to think I use that nickname, please do. You are prone to such speculation, and why not humor you. “Breaking the Waves” is a great film from the same director as Dogville so well done, but its themes are irrelevant. Maybe watch “For Whom the Bell Tolls.”
Eytan Ben-Meir:
Also, Hizbolla attacks on civilians are intentional, without warning. Israel on the other hand have been issuing warnings to all civilians in Kafr Qana and other parts of southern Lebanon to leave their homes because tha Hizbola was using them as Human shields.
Of course, Israel, noble and humanitarian as it is, doesn’t target civilians, like Hezbolla does. It just kills civilians, by the hundreds, and destroys their means of existence, like civilised nations are expected to do.
Of course, Israel does not hide its army among its population. Why should it? It has people’s army, hasn’t it? The people is the army! And it doesn’t fire its rockets from behind the back of civilians. It fires them from aiplanes, high in the sky, never targeting innocents, so the many civilians that are slaughtered in such attacks are just people who happen to be at the spot where Israeli bombs an rockets (made in USA) hit the ground, or the building, or the road, or the car with fleeing Lebanese, or the UN post, or the ambulance, which Israel has no choice but to eveporate when it is “exercising its right to defence itself”, (the official mantra, meaning: the right to slaughter children and grown-ups alike, plus the right to destroy anything else).
And about using the country as a shield: Israel is one huge aircraftcarrier, from which horrific attacks on civilians (never targeted! Just being killed!) are launched.
But that, of course, is completely different
Oh dear. It is a bit of a problem, isn’t it?
Let’s suppose Israel kills every single Hezbollah fighter. A consummation devoutly to be desired?
Well, yes and no. Yes for obvious reasons. But no because actually you’ve only scotched the snake not killed it.
Problem is all those four and five and six and seven and eight year old boys. The sons and younger brothers of those “fighters”. Ten years down the road they’re…well, you know what they are. And what they want to do. So you have to do it all over again.
Then again, I suppose you could get all pre-emptive, all Herody and kill them now as well as their fathers and older brothers. But even that doesn’t get you to the land of “be safely thus”. I’m thinking about their sisters’ and mothers’ reproductive capabilities. All those Y Hezbollah chromosomes stretching out to the crack of doom.
So how about killing all the females as well? Problem solved? Hardly. That’s only a couple of million down…and hundreds of millions to go. Or two billion if you count every last muslim.
I’m glad it’s not my problem. I wouldn’t want to live like that. Wouldn’t want to bring my children up in that environment. With my mind – and in due course their minds – full of those scorpions. All the time.
No wonder Dr. Baruch Goldstein went postal. And the thought of those poisons taking hold and metastasising in the national “group think”…well, to paraphrase W.C. Fields, I’d rather be in Brooklyn thank you very much.
Though best of all would be to be in an Israel in its 1967 borders. An Israel keen to be surrounded by thriving, vibrant neighboring Arab states. Including a Palestinian one. An Israel being a good neighbor to them, trading with them, prospering together with them. An Israel flourishing, just as its Arab neighbors are flourishing…not least because of the work of a fearless and generous and far-sighted Truth and Reconciliation and Reparations Commission.
Well, one can dream…
soldiers cannot be ‘kidnapped’ – only civilians can.
soldiers are CAPTURED.
Also, what Israel is doing is not defending itself, for the reasons clearly stated above by the Major. I wish Israel would start defending itself: itstead, it seems to be willing to join in an American-Iran proxy war instead.
hey, we got bin Laden out of the American-Russia proxy war, so what Israel is doing is not in America’s best interest either, even if we do have idiots like Bush promoting it….
soldiers cannot be ‘kidnapped’ – only civilians can.
soldiers are CAPTURED.
Susan, private citizens who sneak across the Canadian border and kidnap uniformed border patrol officers aren’t capturing them, they’re kidnapping them. Hezbollah – per Taif – has no legal standing to conduct any military operation on behalf of Lebanon.
“It is surprising to me that people who condemn Israel now for bombing civilians accidentaly, have not raised any voice for two weeks when Hizbolla fired rockets at Israeli towns and villages with the exppress intent of hitting civilians. If it is legitimate to target civillians, why complain?”
I think sending rockets against Israeli cities is a war crime and have seen it discussed as such here at Just World News and again and again at Juan Coles site. But just because one actor in a conflict commits a crime does not excuse the other belligerents committing massively greater punitive crimes (which under any reading of international law) is what Israel is doing and has frequently done. I find it so appalling that the leaders in the US/Israel have such a pathetic lack of imagination, faith, patience (and humantity) to work on the slow de-escalation of violence which does happen on both sides when there is a committment to political solutions [without massive overreaction by the great powers (US/Israel) to the occasional smaller acts of violence that they too committ and that inevitably occur and are often meant to derail progress made].
Finally as a US citizen I have no connections to or influence on Hezbollah, but I am directly connected through my goverment to the violence and crimes committed (in my name) by US/Israel.
I would add to Vadim’s comment that prisoners taken with clear intent in violation of the Geneva Convention on the treatment of POWs – in this case, at a minimum, with the intent to use them as hostages (Article 3.1(a))- have been kidnapped.
In regard to the Major’s post, let me just point out a few of the fallacies:
First, he makes an unfounded assumption that Israel’s goal is to kill every single Hizballah “fighter”. This has never been the case. Israel’s goal has to degrade Hizballah both as a military and a political force. If the Major is indeed a major, he should know that there is a big difference.
Second, he appears to assume that people are unable to overcome the normal urge to exact revenge. If this were the case, then I imagine that Israel’s first action upon developing a nuclear weapon might have been to use it on Germany. This didn’t happen, and I don’t suppose that it will. Or perhaps the Major is assuming that Muslim Arabs are incapable of foregoing revenge?
Finally, he seems to make the assumption that Israel is somehow averse to Arab neighbors with thriving, vibrant economies with whom they can trade. I don’t see any evidence that would substantiate this assumption, and I believe that the major causes lying behind the lack of “vibrant economies” in these states has nothing at all to do with Israel (other than the use of Israel and Zionism as an excuse by their failed leaders).
Normally look on. And wonder. But felt compelled to have a say today. First, a quote.
They wrote the names of the dead children on their plastic shrouds. ” Mehdi Hashem, aged seven Qana,” was written in felt pen on the bag in which the little boy’s body lay. “Hussein al-Mohamed, aged 12 Qana”, “Abbas al-Shalhoub, aged one Qana.” And when the Lebanese soldier went to pick up Abbas’s little body, it bounced on his shoulder as the boy might have done on his father’s shoulder on Saturday. In all, there were 56 corpses brought to the Tyre government hospital and other surgeries, and 34 of them were children. When they ran out of plastic bags, they wrapped the small corpses in carpets. Their hair was matted with dust, most had blood running from their noses.
You must have a heart of stone not to feel the outrage that those of us watching this experienced yesterday. This slaughter was an obscenity, an atrocity yes, if the Israeli air force truly bombs with the “pinpoint accuracy” it claims, this was also a war crime. Israel claimed that missiles had been fired by Hizbollah gunmen from the south Lebanese town of Qana as if that justified this massacre. Israel’s Prime Minister, Ehud Olmert, talked about “Muslim terror” threatening ” western civilisation” as if the Hizbollah had killed all these poor people.
I just read Fisk’s piece. It opens with the two paragraphs above. Having read it I channel hopped over here and came across Vadim’s latest little carcinogen. Time for a shower.
JES,
And what do you mean by “degrade”? Are we talking five percent? Twenty percent? Forty percent? What, are you in real estate? Well, come to think of it, you are. After a fashion.
And as for Israel’s “right” – ah, there’s that word, again – to degrade Hezbollah as a political and military force…where’s that come from? What is it, a bit of fine print on some of Yahwah’s funny money?
And as for revenge and the smiting and jawboning of the Arab-ites and vice versa…do you really want to go there?
And as to your third point about not seeing any evidence. No, you wouldn’t see any. Of course you wouldn’t. Now here’s the deal. You can shut your eyes and cover your ears, but you know something: I’m going to rub your nose in it. Try this for size, JES:
The head of Lebanon’s Industrial Association, Charles Arbid, told Agence France Presse on July 24 that Israel’s strategy is to destroy the whole chain of manufacturing, from production to distribution. Bridges, airports, roads, trucks, ports have been methodically attacked.
To JES (12:08 PM) and sympathisers. We can spend an eternity discussing the finer points of policies and the politics of warfare, terrorism, the selective use of the Geneva Conventions among others. These all distract from the central issue: that the state of Israel was created for the most part on someone else’s land. None of these other secondary problems will be solved until this central issue is squarely faced and put to rest once and for all (and not just partially).
By the way, in relation to your July 30, 2006 11:05 PM post, I came across this:
Despite the general acceptance of Kafr Kana as the scene of Jesus’ first miracle, the exact location of Cana is a subject of some controversy.
Hey Major P.,
You didn’t call JES on his deafening silence about the 1967 borders and the commission idea.
Soapy Chugwater
Aren’t you the guy spamming my inbox? I think JES commented on the Saudi initiative the last time it came up here:
https://vintage.justworldnews.org/archives/001706.html
Boy Major, you sure did rub my nose in it! A whole quote from an obscure Lebanese businessman.
I hope I can get over the humiliation.
(By the way, you can keep the “Yahwa’s funny money” crap to yourself next time!)
“This slaughter was an obscenity, an atrocity yes, if the Israeli air force truly bombs with the “pinpoint accuracy” it claims, this was also a war crime.”
I believe that it was Robert Fisk who invented the Israeli “vacuum implosion” bomb during the 1982 invasion of Lebanon (much as Chomsky and his friends created the libel of Israeli “carpet bombing”). Now it appears that he has invented the “X-Ray Vision” bomb that can see inside the basement of the target. Precision bombing does not equate with omniscience.
Too bad those Afghan tribesmen didn’t finish the job in Paskistan.
“obscure Lebanese businessman” – what, like a street vendor? By all means call it the way you want to see it.
And no, I think you better keep it to yourself. It doesn’t cut it here.
Doesn’t cut it here! You’re a funny guy Major, but I wouldn’t give up the day job just yet.
Exactly. What’s another dead civilian when there’s already so many. Jesus.
Joshua, that count bit was an offensive attempt to change the subject. Helena’s post was about the Qana tragedy. You seemingly tried to throw a smokescreen over this atrocity by sticking in a flame about Israel’s right to exist. That wasn’t the issue being argued here.
At the very least you gave the impression that you didn’t care a bit about the deaths of all these civilians, or about the army defending you seemingly being incompetant or careless enough to cause this disaster. Can’t you show some humanity that indicates that you care about these live lost?
JES, the problem seems to be a lot more serious than just an unfortunate accident. The huge number of civillian deaths over the past three weeks is enough reason to call Israeli military policy into question. How are they causing so much non-military death? Are they so incompetent that they can’t hit any legitimate targets? Or are they willfully disregarding the safety of civillians? An army that can’t hit the real enemy, or doesn’t care about civilian casualties, do you want that defending your life?? You need to demand a reassessment of Israeli military policy.
And that last sentence about Fisk is appalling. You can’t hope that someone kills him anymore than
you can hope that someone kills any of us posters here.
Inkan,
Come on. Even the UN Human Rights Coordinator came out with a very explicit public statement about Hizballah’s cynical use of civilians. People here are asking questions, and the IDF does appear to be hitting legitimate targets. I haven’t seen anyone here – including military personnel or government figures – who appears not to care about civilian causalties on both sides. (And I certainly haven’t seen any celebrations over the deaths of Lebanese civilians.) I hope that you are not suggesting that the killing of civilians in Kfar Qana was deliberate?
I asked earlier on in this thread how people would suggest Israel respond in a “proportionate” fashion to the non-stop targeting of its own civilians by Hizballah. So far, I haven’t seen any suggestions.
Frankly, I would take your claims of concern for innocent civilian lives more seriously if you had shown anywhere here the same compassion for those killed and injured on this side of the border over the past three weeks.
As for Fisk, I seem to recall that he was pretty okay with the fact that they tried to beat him to death.
JES, Joshua, Vadim, Eytan and all you soul-mates: you would most likely find a much more sympathetic hearing for your general argumentation if you could find it in yourselves to express even one iota of sadness and compassion for all the bereaved, injured, and terrorized familiesm in Lebanon. It’s notable and very worrying to me that none of you hasd done so. Worrying, because I don’t think of you as “bad” people– but you do seem to be people whose basic sense of humanity seems for now to have been completely switched off.
I imagine that those of you who live in Israel may be living in some real fear, and perhaps you have lost loved ones to the Hizbullah bombings, which must be very, very painful, and I wish you great comfort and strength in dealing with it. Others of you on’t, I think, live in the portions of Israel that have suffered rocket attacks.
But if you are feeling sad, angry, and traumatized, imagine how much more so are the 1.5 million Lebanese living in the zone being terrorized and smashed by Israel’s air and ground forces. Most of them don’t have shelters they can go to. Many of them have literally no safe escape route from what is being visited on them. They have almost no state institutions able to help and support them.
I wonder, though, do you guys have any sense of your common humanity– that is, of the state of being human that you share in common with all God’s children, everywhere? Or are you just too cut off from that, too endlessly self-referential, to even care about non-Jews’ lives any more? I am sincerely puzzled by your reactions.
I hope that you are not suggesting that the killing of civilians in Kfar Qana was deliberate?
I will suggest it. I don’t CONCLUDE that it was deliberate, but all the circumstantial evidence indicates that it was intentional. It certainly will help to drive out the remaining civilian population during the “pause” in the airstrikes so that Israel can operate in a supposed “free fire zone.” And I would suggest that the attack on the UN may also have been deliberate.
Inkan,
I wouldn’t bother. It’s shoddy stuff. Imitation Dershowitz. Go for the real thing. You want to know which the wind’s blowing shimmer on over to Huffington Post, where John Q. American Public is lining up to rip great chunks out of Alan D.’s “defence” of what’s going on.
The man’s going to be sick as a parrot when he wets a finger and sticks it up in that wind. The man’s a proven lawyer – knows a losing case when he sees one.
Helena,
If I may, and with all due respect, I fail to see where I (or, for that matter any of my “soul-mates”) have shown any lack of sympathy for the innocent civilians killed on both sides, including the tragedy (I believed I used this word previously) at Kfar Qana yesterday. I think that it is highly indicative of your knee-jerk reflex reactions when dealing with this issue, as is indicated by your lack of similar chiding of those who have criticized Israel (sometimes in highly uncalled for ways) without expressing one iota of grief for innocent Israeli citizens.
I have nowhere minimized, trivialized or ignored those deaths and, I assure you, I feel a great deal of sadness for those killed at Qana and at other locations in Lebanon, as well as for the Israelis – Jews and Muslims – killed and terrorized by Hizballah rockets.
I find your last statement to be tyically mean-spirited, insulting, uncalled for and right up there with Major’s “Yawah funny money” remark. Shame on you!
Let’s hear it for faith. Somebody’s gotta stand up for believin’ what you know can’t be true.
Helena,
You are truly beautiful.
JES, thanks for your comment. Yes, you did refer to Qana as a tragedy in one of your arguments above.
Yes, it would be nice if everyone would express grief for Israel’s civilian casualties. But thank God the Israeli citizenry has suffered nothing on the scale of what the Lebanese citizenry has suffered over the past 3 weeks… Also, I would imagine that comments on a post about “Qana” might be expected to focus on the casualties of this particularly egregious incident?
So, Joshua, Vadim, and Eytan??
Of course every civilian death is tragic. I hope when Israel ultimately withdraws from Lebanon this time, you’ll consider it less ignominious, and Hezbollah’s future instigations less inventive and daring. Unlike some, I also have sympathy for the families of the kidnapped soldiers.
Gideon Levy is succinct:
In war as in war: Israel is sinking into a strident, nationalistic atmosphere and darkness is beginning to cover everything. The brakes we still had are eroding, the insensitivity and blindness that characterized Israeli society in recent years is intensifying. The home front is cut in half: the north suffers and the center is serene. But both have been taken over by tones of jingoism, ruthlessness and vengeance, and the voices of extremism that previously characterized the camp’s margins are now expressing its heart. The left has once again lost its way, wrapped in silence or “admitting mistakes.” Israel is exposing a unified, nationalistic face.
Israel is in a Damned-if-you-do, Damned-if-you-don’t situation in Lebanon. Barak, the Labour PM, six years ago gave up the idea of an anti-Hezbullah buffer zone in South Lebanon and withdrew Israeli forces. This did not deter Hezbollah from continuing to operate as a state-within a state. They built underground bunkers, imported tons of missiles and armaments, trained a large guerrila force, all imbedded among civilians in the local Shiite villages.
This development over 6 years, with the potential of embroiling Lebanon in a disaster not of its choice or making, had the added advantage of serving Syrian and Iranian interests.
Some might say that Nisrallah miscalculated; that he didn’t believe that Israel would treat the crossing of the border this time and the hostage taking as an act of war.
But he is nothing if not a crafty opportunist. He has prepared for Israeli retaliation. He has made sure that Israel would pay a huge price in adverse public opinion. And he and his foreign sponsors would be in a position, whatever the outcome on the field, to outflank the more moderate elements not just in Lebanon but in all of the Arab world.
So you were outsmarted, eh Truesdell? How’d that happen?
“I also have sympathy for the families of the kidnapped soldiers.”
Ditto that. And for the families of the soldiers killed in Lebanon and fighing there now, some of whom I’ve known since they were children.
JES, Joshua, Vadim, Eytan and all you soul-mates :
Whatever these guys’s thinks at least their grand generations suffered a lot of abuses and atrocities by many human kinds along the history.
I am not justifying Israeli’s action here against any mankind, Israeli still one of the worst states in regards of human abuses when it comes to Arab/Muslims neighbours.
But to those voiced loudly here about the above group read this guy also he is your “soul-mates” from your state doing with his folks atrocities in Iraq right now with behind them a history full of human abuses and human atrocities around the world.
What we seeing of supporting a state like Israel is just a continuously and determines of this behaviour whatever you saying here loudly to ” JES, Joshua, Vadim, Eytan and all you soul-mates” you need to look first to your nation and your state behaviour right now in IRAQ, and your ” soul-mates” what they doing in Iraq which in my mind Lebanon war is a perfect cover for the atrocities your folks and your ” soul-mates” doing in Iraq right now ….
Read the following and don’t be surprised this is you not Israelis how they thinks about the others I can not expressed and digested with myself from a nation alleged to claim the most religious nation right now and their folks in Iraq were hanging the CROSS on top of the Tanks and cross their chest and pray to God! These are your “soul-mates”
Steven Green, the former U.S. soldier accused of raping and murdering an Iraqi girl and members of her family compared killing people in Iraq to “squashing an ant,” in an interview with a reporter about a month before the attack.