I’m in Kampala, Uganda. News is hard to get. But I see from Haaretz that Olmert’s government seems to be stepping up the pace of its military assault against Lebanon:
- Fifty-three Lebanese civilians were killed on Monday in 70 Israel Air Force strikes as the Israel Defense Forces continued its offensive on Lebanon, in an effort to push for the release of two abducted soldiers and to stop Hezbollah from raining rockets on northern Israel.
By nightfall Monday, 210 Lebanese had been reported killed in the six days of ferocious fighting between Israel and Hezbollah guerrillas.
I saw Olmert on the BBC yesterday– giving a lengthy, live presentation of his big speech to the Knesset outlining the rationale and aims of the war. As I understood what he was saying, it was that he is determined to dismantle Hizbullah completely.
Very hard to do this if– as I suppose– the Israeli government is not, actually, prepared after its previous lengthy experience of occupying Lebanon to send forces into the country to run another lengthy occupation of substantial portions of it. (That earlier one, remember, gave birth to Hizbullah in the first place.)
Another route to “dismantling” Hizbullah, which is the one that the Israeli government seems to be taking, is to put such horrendous military and destructive pressure on the country’s people that they would move to dismantle it themselves. Therefore this battle is very much one about the internal political balance inside Lebanon.
The Israelis tried and notably failed to win a battle of exactly this same type back in 1996. This time, Olmert must be either (1) forgetting the lessons of that battle or (2) calculating that the Lebanese balance was so much changed by the “Beirut Spring” of 2005 that this time he has a chance of winning.
I am not so sure. Lebanese people certainly hate having Israel’s death and destruction rained down on them, and a fair portion of them do apparently see Hizbullah as having helped to trigger this. But still, most of them still clearly see Israel’s response as misdirected and grossly disproportional. So where are the forces in Lebanon that are ready and able actually to take on Hizbullah (whose active supporters, after all, account for more than 40% of the national population)?
Hizbullah “wins” merely by not losing this battle. It also has supply lines through Syria (though under Israeli surveillance.)
Olmert’s rhetoric against Syria’s role represents an attempt to get huge international pressure put on Syria. But in the face of the wanton destructivity of Israel’s military operations, will this pressure be forthcoming?
Depressingly, I don’t see any quick resolution to this war. I don’t see Hizbullah either “destroyed” or (easily) backing down. And certainly I don’t see Israel destroyed or (easily) backing down.
Outsiders should surely be pushing for an immediate ceasefire, that is, an immediate end to the death, destruction, and terror being rained on both sides (though highly asymmetrically). And an immediate launching of a broad new international effort finally to resolve all outstanding strands of the Arab-Israeli conflict.
If such a final resolution is not found, then every few years there will be horrible, anti-humane crises like the present one…
This present maelstrom of violence is particularly depressing and unnecessary, for two reasons:
- (1) The vast majority of the peoples of Lebanon, Israel, and Palestine all want exactly the same thing— which is to be able to live their lives in safe and flourishing communities that are not plagued by war. Olmert’s speech in the Knesset was long on expressing this with regard to the Israeli people but absolutely devoid of any recognition that this is exactly what the majority of the Lebanese and Palestinian peoples also want; and
(2) The outlines of how such a peace might be drawn up are fairly well known by now: Israeli withdrawals from just about all of the lands seized by military force from their neighbors in 1967, and the establishment of full relations of normal peace between Israel and all its nieghbors. If such a peace were indeed built, the support for militant irredentists in the Palestinian, Lebanese, Jewish-Israeli, and other communities of the region would go down to very low and absolutely manageable levels… Most people would be too busy celebrating and building upon the newfound regional peace.
So I just want, in the midst of these dark, dark days, to underscore that there is indeed a way to avoid these repeated plungings into cycles of death and destruction. Let the UN, which was founded on the principle of the urgent need to find nonviolent ways to resolve international conflicts, lead the way.
The Law of Unintended Consequences is alive and well in the Middle East these days.
Iran, stung by Western efforts to put a crimp on its nuclear ambitions by imposing sanctions, has armed and encouraged its Hizbulla surrogates to provoke Israel to stymie the anti-Syrian Cedar Revolution in Lebanon and otherwise distract the West. The Bearded Ones in Teheran couldn’t have imagined the surreal scene at the emergency Arab League meeting in Cairo where the Saudis, Egyptians, Jordan, Gulf States and other Sunni leaders denounced the Shiite “inappropriate and irresponsible acts” with little mention of the Israel destructive reaction.
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/07/17/world/middleeast/17arab.html?ex=1153368000&en=ab6b498d3588f5d7&ei=5087
No less eerie is that Iran-inspired private Shiite militias in Iraq have gone so far beyond the pale in their wanton executions of Sunni civilians who happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time, that Sunni leaders are now begging the Americans to stay in Iraq. As The New York Times reported, “many Sunni Arab political and religious leaders once staunchly opposed to the American presence here are now saying they need American troops to protect them from the rampages of Shiite militias and Shiite-run government forces.” This 180 degree convergence of interest turn will only be accentuated if the young hothead Sadr turns his Shiite guns on the Coalition troops in solidarity with Hizbulloh in Lebanon as some of his Mahdi Army subalterns are hinting at.
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/07/17/world/middleeast/17sunnis.html?ex=1153368000&en=24568447136cc7fb&ei=5087
Trusedell, this looks largely diversionary (i.e. off-topic) to me. How do you feel about the civilian deaths in Lebanon, and what do you feel is the best way to stop both them and the continuing casualties in Israel?
Sometimes the best way to begin to address a problem is to understand its context in terms of the surrounding narrative.
Sometimes the best way to begin to address a problem is to understand its context in terms of the surrounding narrative.
Surrounding narrative? Israel is wiping off a complete country from the face of the earth. Isn’t that surrounding narrative enough? Anything to say about that? It is a heinous crime, not perpetrated by “the Bearded Ones in Teheran”, but by the Clean Saved Killers in Jerusalem.
Clean Saved? Oops… Should be Clean Shaved of course.
The current problem began when a part of the Lebanese governing coalition, Hizbollah, invaded Israel and took Israeli hostages. Lebanon has subcontracted international border control to this armed private militia rather than to its national army, notwithstanding entreaties by the international community for the disarming of all private militias in Lebanon.
Lebanon therefore cannot complain when Israel holds it responsible for the ensuing rocket attacks on Israeli cities. The Israeli government’s primary obligation is to ensure the security of its citizens. Hence the current effort to eliminate this threat.
So the Lebanese cannot complain when Israel wages a war against Lebanon’s economy, infrastructure, and people because it fails to implement UN resolutions and intrudes into the sovereignity of other countries? Would you even think of applying that logic to Israel, Truesdell?
hey, if even the Arab League, at its recent emergency meeting, denounced Hizbollah’s agression as “inappropriate and irresponsible acts” with tempered criticism of the Israeli reaction, who are we in the West to feel we need to be more Arab than the Arabs?
“Iran, stung by Western efforts to put a crimp on its nuclear ambitions by imposing sanctions, has armed and encouraged its Hizbulla surrogates to provoke Israel to stymie the anti-Syrian Cedar Revolution in Lebanon and otherwise distract the West.”
Oh riiiiiight! Well, if it is published in the New York Time, and especially if it the guy who wrote it has an Arab name, then it MUST be true, right? It cannot be questioned or doubted, right? Even if it DOES completely misrepresent the credentials of some of the people it quotes (e.g. that tired old propagandist Adnan Abu Odeh as a sociologist no less!), even if the author of the article is a well-known shill for the US and Israel, even if all the Arab countries that “rebuked” Hizbollah are the usual countries that bend over to appease the Americans at every chance, and even if the above statement plays right into the Bush administration’s current program of blaming Iran (and Syria) for all the world’s ills.
Come on! If you are not just trying to spread Israeli/Bush administration propaganda, then for heaven’s sake, apply some critical thinking to what you read.
Helena, I want to thank you for your courage and generosity. I read your blog in part because you remain humane and hopeful in the face of the truly terrible things that are happening and in spite of the hateful things commentors say here and in public.
I have been thinking how striking it is to have someone like Bill Kristol say it’s ‘our war’, meaning we and the Israelis just have to kill as many of those bad terrorist Hizbullah as possible, I guess. And although Juan Williams and George Will reacted negatively to Kristol, overall the public response is muted.
And now we have John Bolton saying that the death of Israelis and Americans at the hands of terrorists somehow renders the death of Lebanese civilians at the hands of the Israeli military inconsequential morally.
Do most Americans really accept such a terrible standard? Do they really believe that an American or Israeli is worth more than a Lebanese or a Palestinian? I suppose they must, mustn’t they.
“The current problem began when a part of the Lebanese governing coalition, Hizbollah, invaded Israel and took Israeli hostages.”
Wrong. The current problem began with Israel’s refusal to stop crossing Lebanon’s border, and bombing southern Lebanon on a regular basis. Not to mention, of course, its refusal to withdraw from Sheba` Farms.
Oh my! I posted much to hastily! Here is a bit more about with what the current problem actually began:
* Israel’s admitted practice of kidnapping numerous Lebanese civilians and holding them hostage (bargaining chips is what they call them).
* Israel’s habit of reguarly violating Lebanese airspace and dropping bombs here and there.
* Israel’s refusal to provide the map of (let alone – heaven forbid! – REMOVE) its 140,000 landmines from southern Lebanon, despite the fact that every year several Lebanese civlians, usually children, are killed or maimed by these mines.
* Israel’s nasty habit of reguarly crossing the border into Lebanon, often killing unarmed civilians, recently a 15-year-old shepherd.
What is actually remarkable is the restraint the Lebanese have displayed.
Helena I totally agree with your view that the Israelis should leave the occupied territories and grant East Jerusalem to the Palestinians as their capitol. This should have been done years ago but the Israelis always find an excuse to tighten their grip. Even if they finally acquiesce and the Palestinians get their state I think it is probably too late for peaceful co-existence. Perhaps my Mormon friend is right when he says that a 300,000,000 man army will attack Israel.
Helena I totally agree with your view that the Israelis should leave the occupied territories and grant East Jerusalem to the Palestinians as their capitol. This should have been done years ago but the Israelis always find an excuse to tighten their grip. Even if they finally acquiesce and the Palestinians get their state I think it is probably too late for peaceful co-existence. Perhaps my Mormon friend is right when he says that a 300,000,000 man army will attack Israel.
Just return the two abducted soldiers. Are they worth the destruction of your country? Poor Lebanese Christians once Lebanon fully turns into an Islamic Republic. They will have their entire diasporic lives to ponder how good it could have been…And they will tell their children about the old country, and remember Beirut in their prayers… It is now or never.
Thanks Helena. You are a refreshing voice in this maelstrom. Sometimes I look at my own partner and children and … the thought of them being numbered civilian deaths just breaks my heart. BTW, I found this piece from Tikkun to be a fine article: http://www.tikkun.org/rabbi_lerner/news_item.2006-07-17.9426591429
Peace
Hezbollah invaded Israel and took Israeli hostages. Lebanon has subcontracted international border.
Truesdell,, This is not true, Israeli occupied South Lebanon land (Sha’aba ) that where Hezbollah arrested the Israeli solders and then another Israel military came which starting fire between the two sides cased more death of Israeli solders.
I am not lover of Iranian/Hezbollah, but did Israel stopped threaten Lebanon? Listening to Fua’ad Sonora on BBC today he highlight that the Israeli fighters, Israeli assaults through the south boarders continually done on Lebanon, if you believe and respect as you put in your post ” subcontracted international border” how you answer these act by Israelis?
Is it the subcontracted international border working for one side?
What about the Israeli fighters over Damascus is it a breach of “subcontracted international border”.?
Whatever accuses you believe and you try to spreads here if there are breaches of international law there is instruments and procedures that Israeli can follow, what happed its for more than 50 years Israel take by here hand what she thing by these accuses to grabs more land and retaliated here neighbours of course there is backfire from them in front of that.
In Gaza did Israelis stops lunching and killing Hamas figures and civilians? NO so there are acts and there are anti-act, what you think having the superiority gives you the rights to kill to threats, grabs land and breaking International laws. This is the surrounded circumstances of this war.
Back to the Arab League about their response of the war in regards to Hezbollah they said its “inappropriate and irresponsible acts”.
First this response taken by modest/ friend of US regimes, in this instant I agree with what they agrees because we saw and we experiencing Iran power starting influencing in the region “Iraq” and there was many voices by Saudis advising Americans of the case of Iran ambition in the region as the foreign minister said ” US gave Iraq on golden plate to Iran” also king Abdullah of Jordan warring about Rise of Shiite Crescent, Hussni Mubarak statement about the Shiite that live with us and their bileves and hearts with Iranians all these point I always warring and believing, from our experience in Iraq and most Iraqi they knew them very well, the major chaos in Iraq part of it is Iranian/Iraqi guys inside Iraq and the Iranian millcia Bader.
So the Arab League Statement I believe its very wise to keep the region from dragging to war not in interested of the states and citizen of Arab nations the only winner will be Iran due to the massive reaction by Israelis and the distraction of the infrastructures of the Lebanon this will be same if not massive if other Arab countries joint this war.
Keep in mind the scenario of Khomeini and his hostile to US and Israel 1979 followed by his threaten the Gulf courtiers to export his “Islamic” / Khomeini revolution to the region and then the breakout of 8 years Iraq/Iran war in 1980 till he dies and we get rid of his crassness but Iran still Iran same.
I think Iranian used this war and the timing using Hezbollah to take the eyes of their nuclear issues that the meeting G8 in Russia / Leningrad to be discussed by the leaders of G8. But we seeing this subjected interrupted by Lebanon war, so Iran the winner in this.
Apologies for long post
“Just return the two abducted soldiers.”
Let Israel just return all the Lebanese they have kidnapped and are holding hostage, and then you will have a right to ask for the release of the two prisoners of war.
“Are they worth the destruction of your country?
Oh yes, let’s DO make the Lebanese responsible for the crimes and atrocities Israel commits upon their counry! Heaven forbid that Israel should ever, just once in its existence, be forced to take responsibility for its own actions.
“Poor Lebanese Christians once Lebanon fully turns into an Islamic Republic.”
Would those be the same poor Lebanese Christians that have constituted the country’s most brutal, bloodthirsty, and corrupt elements? The fascists, for example, who committed the massacres at Sabra and Shatila? Those poor Lebanese Christians?
This is not true, Israeli occupied South Lebanon land (Sha’aba ) that where Hezbollah arrested the Israeli solders
Salah, Shebaa Farms (according to the UN) is Syrian land not Lebanese. The soldiers were captured between the villages of Shtula and Zar’it, miles away from Shebaa Farms and the Golan heights.
here are some maps. hope this helps.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shebaa_Farms
http://www.tour-israel.co.il/maps/zarit.jpg
Would those be the same poor Lebanese Christians that have constituted the country’s most brutal, bloodthirsty, and corrupt elements? The fascists, for example, who committed the massacres at Sabra and Shatila? Those poor Lebanese Christians?
your bigoted generalization is also outdated. The Phalange party (of Sabra/Shatila architect Hokeiba) is closely allied with Syria and decidely supportive of Hezbollah. Pakradouni has defended “the right of Hezbollah and the Islamic resistance to carry out operations”. Birds of a feather.
http://www.jafariyanews.com/2k5_news/march/7hezbollah_syria.htm
“Shebaa (sic)Farms (according to the UN) is Syrian land not Lebanese.”
And according to no one is it Israeli land. I guess that definitely gives Israel the right to be there.
PS According to the Syrians Sha`ba Farms is Lebanese land, so it seems the dispute over this “disputed territory” is between everyone except the parties involved, who are in complete agreement about it.
if it weren’t Shaaba Farms which the UN deems to be part of Syria, not Lebanon, it would be some other trumped up excuse for Hizbullah to justify maintaining an armed private militia, in defiance of the UN six years after Israel left Lebanon…a smokescreen if ever there was one.
For Lebanon to subcontract its international border patrol to Hizbullah would be like Israel subcontracting border patrol on its side to the Stern Gang.
Shirin,
Syrian efforts to declare the Shebaa (sic)Farms to be Lebanese territory is simply a move to provide Hezbollah an excuse to exist. The truth of the matter is that Israel would not be bombing Lebanon, had Hezbollah not killed seven Israeli soldiers and kidnapped two more, and shelled Israeli towns in the North. That it did so, gave Israel enough reason to attack them. According to International Law, if a country is unable to prevent its internal groups from attacking neighboring states, and does not seek the aid of the international community to do so, then the injured party has every right to defend itself. Many of you have argued that Israel is attacking all of Lebanon, and not simply hezbollah, I would submit that that is a mischaracterization of what is happening. Israel is attacking Hezbollah, its military and political centers and its supporters. That is the reason why it is bombing different places throughout southern Lebanon and the southern suburbs in Beirut and why it is also targeting the border with Syria. In addition, yes it is attacking Lebanese infrastructure, but its aim is to prevent Hezbollah from transporting the Israeli soldiers it abducted to Syria or Iran. The blame for all of this lies first and foremost with Hezbollah. In fact, most arab nations have asserted as much and have called for Hezbollah to fix the problem. That said, Israel should strive to fulfill limited objectives in Lebanon. An all out invasion is out of the question, it should merely strive to (and all indications point to its doing so) weaken Hezbollah enough that the government of Lebanon can then exert its authority in Southern Lebanon. Most Lebanese blame Hezbollah for turning their country into another Gaza, not Israel. They are mad at Israel but more so at Hezbollah for starting this crisis.
Just return the two abducted soldiers. Are they worth the destruction of your country?
You’re right that the soldiers should be returned. Abducting these soldiers is not a Good Thing[tm] by any standards. But if they are to return these soldiers, won’t you also ask Israel to return the countless people they have abducted? Why are you not asking Israel to rise up to the same standards that you expect of their enemies? When you do this, you’re sending the signal to us (in the same way the US government is sending the same signal to Israel) that it’s okay for them to behave this way, that it’s okay for them to abduct or murder civilians in neighboring countries, it’s okay for them to drop quarter-ton bombs on apartment buildings and kill families. All they have to use in defense is “suspicion of terrorists” and suddenly it’s okay. Well, I don’t think it’s okay. What they’re doing is not defense.
Israel is committing collective punishment on the civilian populations of Gaza and Lebanon for the actions of a few people. As I understand it, that is considered a war crime by the standards of the Geneva Conventions. But nobody seems to care about this, and we have John Bolton out in public saying that Lebanese citizens are worth less than Israeli or American citizens. That’s not right, and it’s not necessarily a reflection of the opinion of the American people (although it’s clearly a reflection of the American government since they veto UN resolutions calling on Israel to show restraint).
Shebaa (sic)Farms
Not to nitpick, but my transliteration is favored by the BBC, Al-jazeera, Al-Nahar, Daily Star etc. You might lobby to correct all of their stylebooks.
I’m aware of comments to this effect, also aware that they’ve been rejected by the UN, the ultimate arbiter of international law, whose authority we all hope to strengthen. I never claimed Israel had any right to be there – neither of course does [Hezbollah/Hizbollah/Hizb ‘Allah]’s militia, which according to the [Taif/Tayeef/Taef] accord has no right to exist at all.
You’re right that the soldiers should be returned. Abducting these soldiers is not a Good Thing[tm] by any standards. But if they are to return these soldiers, won’t you also ask Israel to return the countless people they have abducted?
So just return the two soldiers. If it was wrong, fix it and stop looking for excuses. Israel has no claims on Lebanon. You’d be surprised how far you’ll get if you stop the violence. Easy does it, just return two soldiers, next year start talking about a permanent peace agreement, they will return more prisoners than you asked for, they’ll kiss you, they’ll send you flowers. Why do you have this mental block with making peace with Israel? If you have no claims over Israel, what is the problem? You are getting destroyed to fight somebody else’s war, and they are not. If that isn’t the definition of a fool I don’t know what is. What is it? A matter of pride? A religious stigma to have a neighbor with different beliefs?
You’ll have an eternity to look back and cry over what Lebanon could have been. I know from my Lebanese Armenian friends. Over two soldiers? You fools….
IT’s always the Jews/Israelis/zionists fault. Now where is my merit badge?
So just return the two soldiers. If it was wrong, fix it and stop looking for excuses.
But this is a double-standard. When will the Israelis return the people they have taken? There are three official Lebanese prisoners in Israel and a couple hundred others who are “missing”. Some of these are so-called “militants”, and some are ordinary civilians. We only distinguish between “soldiers” vs “militants” or “terrorists” as a means of justifying the actions of whichever side suits us best. If you’re actually trying to use the term “terrorist” appropriately then you have to realize that both sides employ terrorism; it just happens that Israel is the far more effective terrorist organization, and part of that is because they have unwavering support from the US to conduct their terrorist activities.
The point is, if the Israeli soldiers are returned to Israel, there’s no reason to believe Israel will cease its actions. The day before Corporal Gilat Shalit was abducted, two Gazan civilians were abducted–a doctor and his brother. Nobody hears much about that, because nobody cares much about that, but that kind of abduction is a real crime. A hostage exchange was offered to Israel for Gilat Shalit (in particular for women and children, I think) but that was rejected. I tried to search for details on the rejection (e.g., was the response “we don’t have women and children”) but as far as I could find the response was simply “no”.
Don’t misunderstand my position, though. I don’t agree with any Palestinian (or Lebanese or other) militant groups, but I do believe I understand what they’re thinking to some extent. They believe, and have good reason to believe, that Israel will continue to punish them militarily or economically regardless of what they do.
For those defending Israel it will be good to remember if Israel would not have invaded Lebanon in 1982 We would not have this mess today. You can speculate all you want but facts are facts.
Some of the real reasons why the American public supports Israel:
1. We think we saved the Jews from the Nazis, so it’s kind of like they’re our foster kids.
2 Most of the Jews we see on TV look whiter than most of the Arabs we see on TV.
3 Israel kind of seems like a spunky little country surrounded by hoards of dark sweaty guys with beards.
4 Jesus was a Jew – you know, until he converted to Christianity.
5 Some of our best friends are Jews. Hardly any of our best friends are Arabs.
John C, your post is neither funny nor informative, and it is certainly offensive to Americans. Not your finest hour buddy.
So just return the two soldiers. If it was wrong, fix it and stop looking for excuses. Israel has no claims on Lebanon.
So just leave the Westbank. If it is wrong to occupy, fix it and stop looking for excuses. Israel has no claims on the Westbank.
You’d be surprised how far you’ll get if you stop the violence. Easy does it, just return two soldiers, next year start talking about a permanent peace agreement, they will return more prisoners than you asked for, they’ll kiss you, they’ll send you flowers.
You’d be surprised how far you’ll get if you stop the violence. Easy does it, just stop occupying the Westbank, next year start talking about a permanent peace agreement, return the many prisoners you hold, they’ll kiss you, they’ll send you flowers.
Why do you have this mental block with making peace with Israel? If you have no claims over Israel, what is the problem?
Why do you have this mental block with stopping oppressing Palestinians? If you have no claims over the Westbank, what is the problem?
You are getting destroyed to fight somebody else’s war, and they are not. If that isn’t the definition of a fool I don’t know what is. What is it? A matter of pride? A religious stigma to have a neighbor with different beliefs?
You destroy others to fight your bloody war, against civilian populations. If that is not the work of a fool I don’t know what is. What is it? A matter of pride? A religious stigma not to accept neighbors who are Arab?
Menno,
While you are correct in pointing to the fact that Israel has no claim to the West Bank and should leave it, you are wrong that it’s merely doing so would save the Jewish state or provide it with the security it needs. Why do I say this? Because Hamas’ stated objective, and to a certain extent Hezbollah’s is to wipe Israel of the face of the earth. They do not want, and will not accept the existence of the Israeli state next to a Palestinian state and that is part of the reason we are in this mess. I’m not saying that it is totally the fault of these two parties, to be sure Israel has had its share of the blame, however, given the fact that both Hezbollah and Hamas instigated this latest bout of violence they are the parties who should be held directly responsible. Up until this, Israel had not attacked Lebanon and had withdrawn from the Gaza. The main reason for this violence is internal fighting within Hamas between the leadership in Palestine and the leadership in exile. It was the leadership in exile and its loyalists within Gaza and the West Bank who carried out the operation. As for Hezbollah, this is part of a larger conflict that has more to do with Iran’s weapon’s program and Syria’s isolation. They hope to distract attention away from themselves and toward the Israeli -Palestinian-Lebanese conflict. If the West is busy trying to resolve that, their theory goes, then they’ll put the Iranian and Syrian issues on the backburner.
Pedro,
You say that this wouldn’t have happened if Israel had not invaded Lebanon in 1982, but you forget that a primary reason for that invasion was to remove the PLO from teh border, which at the time was attacking Israel from the north. That is what destabilized Lebanon and plunged it into civil war. That and the fact that every power in the region turned it into their playground. Yes, Israel had a lot of fault in this, but so do the Muslim powers in the region, neither is blameless in this conflict.
Menno,
Peace treaties with Egypt and Jordan completely invalidate whatever point you were trying to make.
And BTW, if King Hussein didn’t expel the PLO in 1970 then 1982 would not have happened…
i think i may have said this a few times before, but it seems to me that the israeli government’s determination to destroy the elected palestinian authority leadership even while destroying lebanon makes it clear that they at least understand it…
much as i’d like to agree with helena that
(2) The outlines of how such a peace might be drawn up are fairly well known by now
if what’s “well-known” is the blueprint she lays out (essentially the oslo model), it just isn’t so – if we actually take palestinians into account.
this:
Israeli withdrawals from just about all of the lands seized by military force from their neighbors in 1967
doesn’t deal in any way with the main issue facing the majority of palestinians (and the majority of 2 of the 3 segments of the palestinian population, those living under the 1967 occupation, and those in the diaspora – i think 1948-9 refugees are not a majority of palestinian citizens of israel).
that issue is the status of palestinian refugees. or, more pointedly, the implementation of the right of palestinian refugees to return home.
an acknowledgement of that issue is what has separated hamas from other palestinian movements, and the elephant in the palestinian ballot-box. there is no way out that doesn’t deal with it. the israeli government recognizes it – that’s part of why it went from tacit support for hamas to violent attack as soon as they won an election – and so does hamas, and so i assume does hizballah.
for the majority of palestinians in the west bank, gaza strip and east jerusalem, an end to the 1967 occupation is not a “newfound regional peace.” it’s a significant gesture, but one that that leaves them in the same overcrowded refugee camps they live in now, with their care and feeding subcontracted to a different ‘entity’, or maybe even ‘state’. has that made palestinian refugees in lebanon or jordan more content with exile? then why should it be any different on the other side of the border? to expect so is, i believe, a willful refusal to accept most palestinians’ lives as relevent to a “peace”.
“your post is neither funny nor informative, and it is certainly offensive to Americans”
Often, the truth is not what we want to hear. Most popular support for Israel in the U.S. is rooted in paternalism, racism, xenophobia, superstition, tribalism and ignorance. These are not the qualities of a lasting friendship. Pretty soon, the governing elites in the U.S. will have to face the fact that Israel has become a liability, making it more difficult for them to exercise effective control over their precious energy assets. Guess what happens then.
“Most popular support for Israel in the U.S. is rooted in paternalism, racism, xenophobia, superstition, tribalism and ignorance.”
Of the Americans I know, who run the gamut of political spectrums, their support for Israel is rooted in an admiration of democracy, a free society, being a succesful homeland for a nation that was nearly obliterated off the earth, and being on the front line against racist terrorism.
Joshua, your gamut needs adjusting.
” Wouldn’t the American people want to know how far removed their government is from the prevailing opinion of other countries?
Sure they would, but don’t expect the media to tell them.
The American public has no idea the effect this invasion has had on the Muslim world; the mass demonstrations in Amman, Cairo, Tehran, Doha etc. They haven’t heard the anger ring-out at the United Nations or the world leaders who are sick and tired of the US defending Israel’s heavy-handed tactics.
The average American has no idea that Israel is keeping over 9,000 prisoners locked up without charges and that over 400 of them are woman and children.”
http://www.counterpunch.org/Whitney07182006.html
4 Jesus was a Jew – you know, until he converted to Christianity.
John C., Ibrahim (ع) also Jew as they claims, not Just Messiah (ع).
If you excuse me John I can add one more that Ten Commitments that The Americans made to believe and put in most places include FBI or CIA and the forgot the real Christianity through Sunday Schools and Benni Henni teaching
Thank you, Helena Cobban, for this (for the most part) courteous and informative debate and dialogue on the most recent crisis in Lebanon and Northern Israel. My posting involves more of a series of questions, than further commment or opinion: (1) What are the steps the world, and especially the US, would need to take to insure a UN-sponsored cease fire in the region: complete with sufficient UN/multinational peacekeepers to forestall further agression from either Israel or Hizbullah? (2) What is the potential of a nonviolent peaceforce, and/or international observors–especially one that would include Jews, Muslims, and Christians from the US, Europe, and other parts of the world, to forestall further violence on either side. (I’m sure the families of Rachel Corrie and Tom Fox would be willing to support such efforts!) (3) What about an international boycott of any and all weapons of war(especially those which have already killed innocent civilians) to ANY and ALL sides in this tragic fratricide among the children of Abraham? Shalom, Salaan, Peace+
Thank you, Helena Cobban, for this (for the most part) courteous and informative debate and dialogue on the most recent crisis in Lebanon and Northern Israel. My posting involves more of a series of questions, than further commment or opinion: (1) What are the steps the world, and especially the US, would need to take to insure a UN-sponsored cease fire in the region: complete with sufficient UN/multinational peacekeepers to forestall further agression from either Israel or Hizbullah? (2) What is the potential of a nonviolent peaceforce, and/or international observors–especially one that would include Jews, Muslims, and Christians from the US, Europe, and other parts of the world, to forestall further violence on either side. (I’m sure the families of Rachel Corrie and Tom Fox would be willing to support such efforts!) (3) What about an international boycott of any and all weapons of war(especially those which have already killed innocent civilians) to ANY and ALL sides in this tragic fratricide among the children of Abraham? Shalom, Salaan, Peace+
“Most popular support for Israel in the U.S. is rooted in paternalism, racism, xenophobia, superstition, tribalism and ignorance.”
wow, how open minded. I guess when you fail to convince others of your position, you can always fling invective. funny how knee-jerk contempt for the US publc is confused for sophistication.