According to nearly complete election returns from Palestine, Hamas reportedly won 76 of the 132 seats in the upcoming parliament.
I am fairly optimistic about the impact this could have on progress towards a real, sustainable peace between Palestinians and Israelis. Read some of my reasons for this here.
Oh wow. That AP news report says that Fateh got only 43 seats. That is truly a debacle for the movement that (1) dominated the reconstitution of Palestinian national life in the 1950s (but oh, that was a long time ago now), and (2) has dominated the entire governance and patronage system inside the West Bank and Gaza since 1994.
The report also says this:
- Mahmoud Zahar, a top Hamas official, said the group would extend its year-old truce if Israel reciprocates. “If not, then I think we will have no option but to protect our people and our land,” he told Associated Press Television News.
That he announces a readiness to extend the truce is good news. But note that he’s stating that at this point it would have to be reciprocal. Over most of the past year, Hamas has abided by a truce (tahdi’eh– literally, a “calming”) against Israel that Israel never subscribed to and indeed that Israel never abided by.
If Zahar is holding out the offer of a reciprocal truce now– will Israel respond?
The AP report also notes that Hamas’s top leader, Khaled Mshaal, called Abu Mazen from Syria, and
- “He stressed Hamas insists on a partnership with all the Palestinian factions, especially our brothers in Fatah,” Hamas said on its Web site.
This, after Fateh for decades– that is, so long as Y. Arafat was still alive– always steadfastly refused to engage in power-sharing with Hamas. (Abu Mazen tried to do some power-sharing with Hamas back in 2003, when he was PM. But Arafat still refused– and that was a major reason why Abu Mazen resigned back then… My sense is he is most likely still open to working with Hamas this time round.)
Interesting days.
Mshaal’s pledge of a truce seems farcical in light of Hamas ideology. If your policy is to destroy Israel why are you carrying out such a truce with Israel to begin with?
Two possibilities.
1) Hamas would want a truce for strategic reasons. Hamas knows that it can’t take Israel head on in a war. Wait to stockpile more resources. Wait till you are confident you can exploit a weak spot in Israel’s line of defense. Wait till Iran has the bomb and gives them more leverage.
2) Hamas can’t just admit “ok, we were lying all along, we want to talk with Israel.” So instead they talk in terms of a truce, which may be more palatable for their base.
I hope it is #2. But generally, a democratic government accountable to its citizens has to assume that it’s enemies mean what they say. Israeli government officials can’t say to the public “Look, we KNOW Hamas doesn’t really want to kill us. Trust on on this one. It’s all an act, and they really want to cut a deal.” Because the second a suicide bomb goes off, those officials lose all credibility.
I’m not ruling out the possibility that Hamas can change it’s stripes. But it is incumbent on Hamas to do just that. Israel doesn’t have to negotiate with a group that “might” change its mind.
Via the Haaretz news ticker
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/ShTickers.html
22:53 MK Eitam suggests Israel assassinate Hamas list members (Israel Radio)
22:50 Olmert: Israel will ignore a Hamas-led gov`t and render it irrelevant (Haaretz)
22:37 Mofaz: Israel insists Abbas disarm militants, despite Hamas victory (AP)
22:16 Palestinian medics: IDF troops kill girl in Gaza Strip (Reuters)
22:15 Abbas says he`ll start immediate consultations to form a new government (AP)
22:11 Abbas: My program remains based on peaceful settlement with Israel (BBC)
“I’m not ruling out the possibility that Hamas can change it’s stripes. But it is incumbent on Hamas to do just that. Israel doesn’t have to negotiate with a group that “might” change its mind.”
Why is it incumbent on Hamas to change its stripes? Israeli policy is more belligerent than that of Hamas. I would have thought that if peace is desired, Israeli government policy should change its stripes.
Joshua in an earlier comment calls Hamas a “racist hate group”. A degree of ignorance of the Arabo-Islamic world, which is also typical of many Israelis. The attitude of Hamas has very deep roots in the Islamic Middle East, and to dismiss it in contemptuous fashion is more likely to lead to defeat for Israel than success.
The point is of course that the strength of the Islamic Middle East lies not in the states, which are easily defeated, as we have often seen, but in the people and their faith, which are practically immovable. It was true more than a millennium ago, and it is true now. It is why the US is losing in Iraq. Hamas appeals to these sentiments, and I would have thought it has a basic chance of success.
The question for Israel is whether a median road remains, as sought by Sharon, somewhere in between making peace with the Palestinians and exterminating them (or ethnically cleansing them). Personally I think Sharon’s road may have been closed.
Hamas is indeed a racist hate group. Read their charter. If it in has “very deep roots” in middle eastern thinking, then that is a scathing indictment of the region.
Israel has changed its policy, often. It has elected hard line governments, and governments willing to negotiate. For the most part, terrorism remains the same, or even increases, when Israel softens its stance.
I agree with you on one thing. Israel has a sufficient military advantage that it COULD wipe out the Palestinians. Yet for years it has refused to do so.
The Palestinians CAN’T. But Hamas has indicated that it WOULD if it COULD.
The logical conclusion is that we make sure the balance of power remains the same, so that the one group that would commit genocide remains unable to do so.
Sorry for the banality, but my understanding of the mentality is that they don’t promise any particular awards in this life. All benefits from being a religious revolutionary come in afterlife
By this logic, all Hamas and Shiite revolutionaries need to accomplish is Islamist equivalent of saving their souls.
All this is pretty bad news for neoconservative “democracy”. The time for semantic games on ME “peace” is also gone.
Henry, it is not simply a bad day for neoconservatives. It is a bad day for anyone who wants peace.
But you think peace is merely semantic. That’s just sad.
But I have to say I don’t think the elections were a bad thing. The Israelis need to know where the Palestinians stand. They now do. The Palestinians chose bigotry and intolerance, rather than peace and coexistance.
Well, the whole world of neocons is purely semantical. What else is new?
Joshua, if you want to ignore the reality of the situation, go ahead, be my guest.
From a Palestinian point of view, Israeli policy has not changed very much. There have been hard Israeli governments, and harder ones, very briefly one mildly softer one. But not even under the Oslo agreements was what was on offer really acceptable to Palestinians. If I were a Palestinian, I would not have accepted it. I never thought so and I don’t now. And I don’t see Palestinian opinion fundamentally changing. In fact it’s unimaginable.
And Hamas is much closer to fundamental feelings than Fatah was.
To condemn a whole people out of hand, as you have just done, reminds me of your earlier remarks, though you say they were not genocidal.
yup…
Well, NOW there are TWO democracies in the ME. The Palestinians have a legitimate government by declared US standards of democracy.
Is the US/Israel “axis of occupation” now going to destroy the second democracy?
Most importantly, as noted in the main post, will Israel reciprocate in a suspension of ALL killing (including of the kids playing by the road)?
The ball is in the occupier’s court.
I’m tired of these Israeli supporters claiming that Israel can’t enter in negotiations with the Palestinians, because they don’t have a valid interlocutor.
They already played that game with Arafat. They continued with Abbas, who was unable to show any progress toward peace talks (except on his side where he obtained a truce from the Hamas). So who could be surprised that the Palestinians condemned the Fatah, a party and government who wasn’t able to deliver anything from his promises ? If the Israeli had been serious about peace and if the negotiations had made some proress, then the Fatah would have been seen in a better light.
But a valid interlocutor is the one who enjoy the trust of his people and the Palestinians have made a clear choice. In peace negotiation you have to talk with the leaders who have the trust of the people, not with the one you chose.
Bush seems now in disarray. After snubing the quartet and the roadmap for years, he managed to obtain a quasi joint declaration from its members, setting almost impossible conditions for a negotiation with the Hamas. Personnally, I think that as a first step, a truce is enough and it should be respected by the Israeli too.
Hamas is indeed a racist hate group.
So is Israelis James.
Your thoughts goes not far than your nose…, what’s about Israelis and Zionist for 75 years keeping occupying the Arab lands….! Do you heard what the Israeli leaders and Zionist leaders like Bin Gorion and other what they said about the Arab and Arab States?
Your minds just locked on Hamas or Iraq whom your breaking news put it today “The Khomeinist movement in Iran and in Iraq.”
Or your thoughts of US occupation and you still out of the circle that let you suggested some sort of a questioner on internet to hear from Iraqis about what they need and what thy think were their country under US occupation for more than three years?
Where you live James on Mars, or on the Moon?
Inkan, hi. It is Zahar, so far as I know, not Mashaal, who’s made all the public statements about the possibility of extending the ceasefire. You should remember that Hamas has actually (with one exception) abided by a ceasefire since last March– it is ISRAEL that didn’t abide by that one.
Now, Hamas is considering extending it for a year– if the arrangement is reciprocal.
Why would they do that, you wonder?
Firstly, the idea is not “farcical”, as you claim, since they’ve already shown the discipline and commitment to do it. Secondly, they had some v. solid reasons to. Weariness with the violence and losses the population has been suffering, and a responsiveness to that weariness is certainly one. Many Jewish Israelis are also mightily fed up with the perpetuation of the conflict; and last July a large majority of them showed they were ready to make real territorial concessins in the interests of peace.
From my perspective, this is great. It means both communities might (despite all rhetoric from both sides) actually be ready to take a pause from the conflict and to consider a search for long-term resolution through non-forceful means.
So, first the ceasefire, and then– hopefully very soon after that– the negotiations for the final status agreement. Let both these peoples refocus their energies on constructive ends, not on domination, violence, and war.
And if it’s at all like South Africa, both sides will have to make large concessions on the politically/territorially maximal positions they have staked out before the negotiations start. But if the peace agreement looks convincing enough, those concessions will be worth making.
Outsiders like citizens in the US and elsewhere can help the process forward by making sure all external incentives are structured to aid rather than hamper the peacemaking. In other words, no more blank checks from the US government for an Israeli government that enacts policies of colonial land-grabbing and domination in somebody else’s land– just as there should be no support from any outsiders for policies of violence, escalation, and political/territorial maximalism.
Either we believe all Israelis and all Palestinians are humanly equal, and therefore entitled to equal degrees of political independence, human respect, and human security, or we don’t. I happen to.
Great result. At least there will be something representing the Palestinian’s true positions, not just a corrupt cast of chronies living off American and EU welfare.
It also proves my observation that the majority of the Arab populations is more extremist than their tyranical rulers. Let’s have democratic elections in Egypt, Jordan, Alegria (of course), etc and you’ll see the same pattern. Intransigent movements win taht mix politics, religion, and militia into one big ugly monster.
The Palestinians have spoken, and their choice makes Arafat look moderate.
David
of chronies living off American and EU welfare.
Yes David the time changed now.
For more than 50 years the Palestinians are seduced by some western countries to settle in “America and EU” with all their expenses paid for them and their families, do you know why David?
Yes, it’s part of plan to free Plastein land for the new settlers who come to live on the PromiseLand. Also to make the Palestinian future generations leave their Right To Return to their Homeland David…..
I wonder why you settle in America, your heart and your feeling in the Promisland!! Is time to move David?
This is a story of one Palestinian, he is PhD Eng. finished from Texas Uni, he offered US citizenship and US passport just to stay in US with all his expenses be paid for him “on the house” you see David your story not complete you believe in your Owen stories
It also proves my observation that the majority of the Arab populations is more extremist than their tyranical rulers. Let’s have democratic elections in Egypt, Jordan, Alegria
David do you believe yourself in Democracy? Do you believe in Freedom of Speech? Do you believe in Human Rights?
Of course you will answer YES, but this for yourself what the Arab/Islamic NO they are not not allowed to…
Do you see your double standard thinking and talking and your judgments? It’s just gets so naive see some one talking differently what he thinks and believe.
I think it’s not your business and any one else to tell the Arab/Islamic people what to do this their right like your right David.
Chaps
I think the killing of this unfortunate girl illustrates the human side of this tragedy. The child was 9 years of age.
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/675441.html
“It also proves my observation that the majority of the Arab populations is more extremist than their tyranical rulers. Let’s have democratic elections in Egypt, Jordan, Alegria (of course), etc and you’ll see the same pattern. Intransigent movements win taht mix politics, religion, and militia into one big ugly monster.”
David’s rants are beginning to sound tired. Who is going to believe that whole peoples (of no less than four different countries he mentions!) are wild extremists?
Actually I was thinking this morning that the fact that this kind of rant now sounds tired-out and finished, is a measure of the fundamental shift that has taken place since the election results. Even on the radio (BBC) this morning, having started with the ritual condemnations of Hamas from the White House, Jack Straw, etc., there are now more measured commentaries. This process will continue.
In the end, democracy is democracy, and you can’t undo an election result. The people have spoken. David says it himself. What is wrong with his point of view, is that you can’t condemn a whole people who have spoken democratically.
This is why Israeli politicians are having trouble this morning. I can see their dilemma.
Helena
it is somewhat dishonest of you to portray the cease-fire as a simple situation of “Hamas kept the cease-fire and Israel didn’t”. First of all, because Hamas had some notable lapses (e.g., that barrage of Qassams they fired at Israel after one of their trucks, loaded with ordnance, exploded during a parade last September); even more importantly, Hamas isn’t the sum all of Palestinian attacks against Israel – IJ and AAMB kept up terrorism during all that time. Do you propose Israel ignore them?
“No more blank checks from the US government for an Israeli government”
There never were any “Blank checks”. And, anyway, how about the checks to the Palestinians? Now that the Palestinian leaders rule out negotiations, why not cut them back too?
Today’s best MSM article is in the NYT. It starts out talking about Bush but ends up analyzing the mideast.
And Fatah was founded in 1958 or 1959, too late to have “…dominated the reconstitution of Palestinian national life in the 1950s” as Helena foolishly said.
I think Israelis don’t like the outcome, but contrary to Alistair, the change will be more wrenching for the Palestinians. Especially the Hamas leadership, which may be about to watch it’s funding dry up or be forced to modify it’s stated policies.
If Hamas isn’t more militant, what’s the point? And if they are more militant, how will they confront the much stronger IDF? The only rational way out is to become a “Good government” accomodationist negotiator for a two-state solution. But Hamas has so far refused to show any signs of doing this. The alternative is to stew behind the Wall and issue increasingly impotent manifestos, without provoking massive IDF retaliation. Shooting off missiles that miss can only take you so far…
Even if Hamas in government does change it’s stated position, Israel has to worry about an Iranian nuke in the hands of a suicide cult. And neither disengagement nor negotiation nor a Palestinian state will reduce that risk.
Still, the fundamental question remains: Was the vote for Hamas a vote for “Good Government” or a vote for heightening the “Resistance”? And since the pollsters got so much wrong, how can we find out?
The other fundamental question is: Will a Hamas government suppress the military adventures of Islamic Jihad? Or can Hamas use Israeli retaliation for attacks by IJ as an excuse to tear up the “Calm” for good and get on with the battle?
Eyal– I did say “with one notable exception” about Hamas and the ceasefire… That September incident was it. Remind us how many Israelis were injured in it?
About the rocket attacks from Aqsa brigades and Islamic Jihad. No, I don’t propose that israel ginore then. But enacting a workable ceasefire regime that spans the Green Line surely requires coordination not unilateralism. Actually, a mutual and monitored ceasefire with a Hamas-led Palestinian force would result in the cessation of rogue attacks against Israel much, much more effectively than the present, highly inequitable “coordination” with a fateh-led Palestinian security force. Fateh hasn’t had the unity and discipline to enforce anything! But look at South Lebanon over the years– before 2000 and since. There, Hizbullah proved to have the commitment and discipline to do what it said it would, including enforce ceasefires. Including, there, Hizbullah has intercepted rogue forces (mainly, pro-Fateh Palestinians) who’ve sought to attack Israel.
Hamas and Hizbullah have pursued their policies according to very similar playbooks ever since (and before) 1992, whick was the year when Rabin helpfully sent 400 Hamas supporters to South Lebanon to study for 6 months at Hizbullah University. Sort of like the “Kennedy School of Government” at Harvard, I gather, but more hands-on…
By the way, the current series of Israelis actions in Gaza and the West Bank seems somewhat pointless and obscure. It could be that simply both sides are failing in their media relations and if I knew more about what was going on I’d have a more nuanced opinion. But from what I can see, no benefit is accruing to the Israelis from these small actions.
Likewise, those innaccurate missile and mortar attacks from Gaza. All they do is rile up the IDF.
Is this all some kind of “Symbolic warfare” that I’ve missed learning about? Or perhaps some extreme form of electioneering?
two things that seem to have gone missing from this discussion.
1)
this is far from the first election for the palestinian legislative council. they’ve been going on for decades. if a functional electoral system is the same thing as a democracy (and how can we in the u.s. doubt it – it’s what our court-selected president keeps telling us, after all), there’s been one in the west bank, gaza, and east jerusalem for rather a long time.
but having an election doesn’t make you a government. like fatah before them, hamas is now the elected leadership of nothing in particular. no physical control of the land where their electorate lives, no control of the main factors that affect the economy that shapes their electorate’s lives, etc. hamas is now in the eminently complicated position of being in charge of a bantustan system that has so far mainly existed as a subcontractor enforcing the israeli occupation. it’ll be interesting to see whether they can do something different from the judenrat-esque job that seemed to be all that fatah’s administration aspired to.
2)
hamas calls for the destruction of the israeli state. this is not the same thing as calling for the extermination of jewish israelis.
the most interesting thing to me about the discussion of hamas’ political positions is the complete conflation of the israeli state and jewish israelis. which is not a conflation that hamas makes, as far as i can tell. the charter is full of rehashed european myths about jews (= freemasons = rotarians = communists = capitalists etc), and is very clear about its commitment to armed struggle as an available tactic, but has very little to say about the status of jews in an islamist palestine.
what the hamas charter (article 31) does do, however, is very specificly reaffirm as a matter of religious principle the idea of tolerance for christians and jews under muslim rule. this is conditional on not struggling against islam for sovereignty, which almost exactly parallels the zionist view of the rights of muslims and christians in the israeli state.
between a religiously and racially defined ‘jewish state’ and a religiously defined muslim state, there’s not much to choose from unless you’re a theocratically-oriented believer in one religion or the other.
i mean, hamas says that the qu’ran is its constitution (article 8). a fair number of israelis think a constitution might be a good thing to have sometime. so far no knesset has ever agreed.
which almost exactly parallels the zionist view of the rights of muslims and christians in the israeli state.
a fair number of israelis think a constitution might be a good thing to have sometime. so far no knesset has ever agreed.
From both above stated its looks to me there is confilict in stating that.
Zionist it’s not a religious party as such, Torah it’s not regarded as their constitution for them, this lead us to say there is misleading by stating “view of the rights of Muslims and Christians in the Israeli state.” Because simply Zionist is a racially defined group.
Alastair,
Please read me again, there is no rant. I was very positive on finally seeing elections, and on the clarity with which Palestinians have spoken.
Things would be prettier if there were no AK-47s in their political expressions, but then again Arabs use AK-47s even at weddings, so what do I know.
The confirmation of the observation I made way back was to close the loop with a contention that was challenged by Shirin and Helena. On Algeria it did happen with the FIS. In Egypt it will happen if there are multi-party elections. Who doubts this?
As for Salah, you have descended into rambling and I cannot even tell if there is a question hiding in there.
David
I would add to Eyal’s comments that, for the sake of accuracy, Israel was not a party to either the ceasefire or the “calm”. These were internal Palestinian agreements, in the latter case brokered by Egypt. The reason that Israel was not a party is because they were neither asked, nor were they party to the negotiations. To accuse Israel of “breaking” a ceasefire, to which they were not a party, is misleading at best.
The point is of course that the strength of the Islamic Middle East lies not in the states, which are easily defeated, as we have often seen, but in the people and their faith, which are practically immovable. It was true more than a millennium ago, and it is true now.
Yes, Alistair, but we do not live more than a millennieum ago.
I think the issue here is that the Hamas – and this is clear from their covenant, no matter how much spin one tries to put on it – is a reactionary organization. I would feel the same repulsion if, say, Avigdor Liberman and Arieh Eldad gained a majority in the Knesset. I don’t see why anyone thinks that having been elected makes these racist reactionaries any more palatable.
Finally, I find the euphoria expressed in the original article quite amusing – going from the fact of an election somehow to a binational state. The South African comparison is, I believe, quite inappropriate. If you want something more analogous, you should take a look at the Azerbaijani Narodni Front, and their brief, yet disastrous, period in power under Abulfez Elchibey. What we are seeing now is the beginning of a process. Hamas was elected, I believe, largely in response to the failings of Fatah, rather than as a reaction to Israel. They will succeed or fail based on whether or not they are actually capable of ruling, something which is not at all certain to my mind.
“‘The point is of course that the strength of the Islamic Middle East lies not in the states, which are easily defeated, as we have often seen, but in the people and their faith, which are practically immovable. It was true more than a millennium ago, and it is true now.’
Yes, Alistair, but we do not live more than a millennieum ago.”
JES, it is like I said to Joshua in an earlier comment, if you want to ignore the reality of the situation and live in your own bubble, go ahead, be my guest. Israel spends its time destroying and wrecking Arab states, so it is evident that legitimacy and power will go elsewhere.
Israel spends its time destroying and wrecking Arab states…
That is an interesting assertion. Perhaps you’d like to elaborate?
David,
Again you put your stories, the fact is you are “descended into rambling” without being honest, open mind to discuss your thoughts here in this site instead you push your words stores baselessly.
To me and may be some of the readers of this site your head full of hatred to Arab/Islam for no reason, which I thinks some thing related to your believes you’re your personality.
From the Hamas Covenant:
Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it” (The Martyr, Imam Hassan al-Banna, of blessed memory).
…
The Prophet, Allah bless him and grant him salvation, has said:
“The Day of Judgement will not come about until Moslems fight the Jews (killing the Jews), when the Jew will hide behind stones and trees. The stones and trees will say O Moslems, O Abdulla, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him. Only the Gharkad tree, (evidently a certain kind of tree) would not do that because it is one of the trees of the Jews.” (related by al-Bukhari and Moslem).
Allah is its target, the Prophet is its model, the Koran its constitution: Jihad is its path and death for the sake of Allah is the loftiest of its wishes.
…
The Islamic Resistance Movement believes that the land of Palestine is an Islamic Waqf consecrated for future Moslem generations until Judgement Day. It, or any part of it, should not be squandered: it, or any part of it, should not be given up….
…This Waqf remains as long as earth and heaven remain. Any procedure in contradiction to Islamic Sharia, where Palestine is concerned, is null and void.
Etc.
To wm. tyroler at January 28, 2006 03:50 PM
Could you tell us about the Israelis and their leaders what they said in the past and what they saying now behind the closed doors about Arab / Islam, that will be more balanced than quote one side.
The acts of Israelis speaks about their attitude toward Arab/Islam when Muslims never ever killed the Jews and the Jews never ever suffered from Islamic Impair as the history tell us the Othman Sultan Abdul Hammed granted them the safe haven to live on the Muslims land because the West “Christians “or what ever their believe targeting the Jew in West Europe and East, this the fact that
Theodore Herzl start his project of the Promise Land State
Don’t tell us about the great times the Jews endured under the rule of the Muslims. (What about the whole issue of Dhimmni?) Any general history book would suffice to show a great many pogroms against the Jews at various times and various locations throughout the Arab World. Your comments typically don’t make any sense but you’ve got to get the facts right.
By the way, what’s with the ? all over the place?
various times and various locations throughout the Arab World.
Put your facts here….
Did those acts as you said reached to the Holocaust crimes? Or other in Poland, and East Europe?
These typical bathetic calms you and other put on and on to spread the faire from Arab/Muslims/Islam.
Tell us what those Serbia solders did in Bosnia after the Church blessed them? Or what those US solders who hung the Cross on the Tanks did to Iraqis? also thos in Abu Graib.
Or those Rabi blessed those sent to join the Faluja to massacre the Iraqis?
All are Christian’s believers and Judie but their acts tells you, Isn’t in the Bible or Talmud?
What about the whole issue of Dhimmni?)
OOOhhh welcome to the new Innovators of New Islam.
Look go and read very well the Islamic Empire and what they did and how they treat the Christians and Jews when was inquire Europe and West Asia. There are a lot to educate yourself from their attitude.
Do note spread you hatred to Islam by quote a parts of it without take real application of that and how the people felt about it. it’s better than Killing and spading White Phosphor on the humans, or using the Nuke to kills hundreds of thousands of people in a second, or and or….
“According to the Jewish religion, the murder of a Jew is a capital offense and one of the three most heinous sins (the other two being idolatry and adultery). Jewish religious courts and secular authorities are commanded to punish, even beyond the limits of the ordinary administration of justice, anyone guilty of murdering a Jew. . . . When the victim is a Gentile, the position is quite different. A Jew who murders a Gentile is guilty only of a sin against the laws of Heaven, not punishable by a court. To cause indirectly the death of a Gentile is no sin at all.”
Salah,
You’re a big fan of Wikipedia. I suggest you look here for starters.
Islam may have had a history of being more tolerant to Jews than Christian Europe (which isn’t really saying much), but living under Islam was far from a bed of roses for Jews. This is true even going back to medieval times. You may want to take a look at the biography of Moses Maimondides, who, along with his family, was forced to leave Spain, and then North Africa to save his life.
Moses Maimondides, who, along with his family, was forced to leave Spain, and then North Africa to save his life.
Yah, what about hundreds of thousands of Palestinians JES they forced to leave their homes Land occupied by Zionists and terrorist gropes like Kahana?
So you argue about one family what about those in Syrian the Golan Heights and Sinai, West Bank.
Could you stop and think for a moment before you put your notes here and discuses with yourself who kill and massacre and slaughters the Arab/Muslims before you give us your examples JES.
Salah,
Why don’t you read what you wrote, which was what I was responding to!
The myth of universal Islamic “tolerance” is just that: a myth.
Quite frankly, I am amazed that absolutely no one here takes you down for your unsubstantiated rants.
The myth of universal Islamic “tolerance” is just that: a myth.
oh, who is this? I think he is Ahmadinjad join us here!!!
go and show the world Isrrali tolerance we live now.
To Salah-It’s tough defending the Arab/Muslims but remember you have 1.2 Billion brothers and sisters. They will all agree with you.
However, the facts are plain. Over 700,000 Jews living in Arab/Muslim countries fled or were forced to leave their homes following the creation of the Jewish State in 1948. They left their homes where they’d lived for generations. I don’t expect anything but acknowledgement of facts. Not your sympathy or empathy.
So, from my perspective, the Arab Palestinian refugees and the Jewish Arab refugees balance each other out. Seems fair to me. So, let’s not bicker about whose hurts are greater. (I’ll show you mine if you’ll show me yours. That’s childish schoolyard stuff.)
Furthermore, please refrain from interpreting Jewish religious texts. Let’s not go there. The issue is Hamas and their ‘victory’.
were forced to leave their homes following the creation of the Jewish State in 1948. They left their homes where they’d lived for generations.
As in my old post the problem started when the early Israelis started their project in Palestine its not a problem with Arab/Muslims here, its the all project of State of Israel that some resources stated agencies belong to that project encouraged the Jew around the world to go there.
Furthermore, please refrain from interpreting Jewish religious texts. Let’s not go there. The issue is Hamas and their
Your follows started here just read the post you will find who interpreting religious texts! Before you come to attack me.
from my perspective, the Arab Palestinian refugees and the Jewish Arab refugees balance each other out. Seems fair to me. So, let’s not bicker about whose hurts are greater. (I’ll show you mine if you’ll show me yours. That’s childish schoolyard stuff.)
I think this more be applicable on you from the above funny perspective, which is ”That’s childish schoolyard stuff”
You playing Robin Hood Game, Isn’t?
Then go to Germany and do your Holocaust to be more “balance each other out. Seems fair to you”.
Ya. Now I get it. There is no place for Jews in Israel er… Palestine. Is that it Salah? That’s the Hamas answer as well. Are you Hamas? No matter.
The Israelis have the picture quite clear in their crystal ball. It is that there is no room for a terrorist state along the borders of the State of Israel. Should there be an incursion/attack across the border from Hamastan/Palestine then war will have broken out. War where the gloves are off and there will no longer be a question of ‘it’s all about the settlements’ or ‘the occupation’. If Hamas attacks there will be a swift and extraordinary response. I believe the coming days will prove me right. Should Hamas attack.
Are you Hamas
Don’t put your wards in my mouth be clear and honest with your post and respond honestly with the stated post.
Don’t divert main talk which really disturbing and unhealthy.
You already fired all the guns in my face.
God help us with a neighbour stat that don’t know just the War and Distractions.
I believe the coming days will prove me right. Should Hamas attack.
Your state already taken action “the gloves are off” for coming war no surprise
Stan,
”You better first dig two graves before seeking revenge.”
Jewish Proverb
Well spoken Salah like a true son of Ahmedinajad. There really is a disconnect with the West and the Muslim/Arab world. The cultural class between civilizations is taking place on TV every night.
We have the Western leaders meeting to agree to clarify the position of the rational world towards Hamas. That is, no money to support the P.A. without a clear [i] renunciation of terrorist activities and [ii] recognition of Israel, the Jewish State. Unless that happens the true intent of the Palestinians and the Hamas movement will become exceedingly clear to one and in the West be it small l liberal or capital C Conservative.
Hamas and the Palestinian electorate have chosen to reject Israel and a two state solution. I’m not living in a state of wishful thinking. The ball is firmly in the court of Hamas.
Let’s see what happens…
“Well spoken Salah like a true son of Ahmedinajad”
I think you are bad reader, Read my previous post and keep it your mind next time don’t through you “Rubbish”.
Look whatever words and language all we know you, most Israelis when it’s coming to the reality you bashing and through you’re “Rubbish” as we see.
I wounder and I really would like what the reaction from you about the King Abdullah offer to Israel to take his offer. I would like to hear for you why Israelis objected if they are really keen to settle to peace in ME?
Hamas and the Palestinian electorate have chosen to reject Israel and a two state solution
WRONG, Israeli objected from first second refused to Talk with Hamas despite Hamas offer.
The ball is firmly in the court of Hamas.
How it’s come as you said
“We have the Western leaders meeting to agree to clarify the position of the rational world towards Hamas. That is, no money to support the P.A. without a clear [i] renunciation of terrorist activities and [ii] recognition of Israel, the Jewish State.”
You already boycotted them and defined them AXIS of EVIL what you think they can do with this sick environments! Did you give them the chance to think and to demonstrate there good will to you? Did you or the world continue support the Palestinians to help the voted leaders to continue there leadership in friendly environment?
The fact is by boycotted the aid is you bring them down and humiliated the voted leaders and is as I see it a punishment to all Palestinians because they spoke freely and chose democratically their leaders, where is here the support for democracy in ME as you and other western world shouting loudly in ME?
Or you looking for some one singe the paper for you with reading what on the paper that’s it?
Look Salah, it seems to me we won’t settle the issue just go back and forth over and over again.
This problem in the ME is intractable in only one way. The Arab/Muslims do not accept Israel as a soverign state. Let me ask you plainly, “Do you accept the State of Israel as a sovereign state, allowing for the borders to be set as currently adjusted with Gaza and for some adjustments to be made on the West Bank?” A simple yes or no.
If you insist on any of the following: i. Return of the refugees to their ‘homes’ ii. Jerusalem as the capital of a Palestinian State then we are simplying wasting time talking about 2 different realities.
Furthermore, nobody is saying the Palestinians haven’t a right to make a choice. However, the Palestinians continue to make poor choices. In 1948, in 1994, 2000-2004, 2006, they have continued to make poor choices. As I’ve said before, ‘they take every opportunity to miss the opportunity’.
Peace could have and will be achieved once the Arab/Muslim world accepts the right of Israel to exist. Trying to annhilate, expunge, bury, wipe out the State of Israel has until this date only made Israel stronger and left the Palestinians in a decrepit condition. Isn’t it time for a change?
Hamas is the most implacable foe of Israel since it declares NO RECOGNTION, NO PEACE, NO PLACE FOR THE EXISTENCE OF THE STATE OF ISRAEL. Therefore, the Palestinians by choosing have made sure their life will continue to be one of suffering and depravity. When Palestinians and in general Arabs/Muslims stop educating their own people about Jews being ‘pigs and apes’ and stop teaching them about ‘the Protocols of the Elders of Zion’ and expunge the vile words in the Koran about ‘murdering the Jews’ then there will be a chance for success in the ME.
Let’s see what happens…
I dont have time too to wasted with” That’s childish schoolyard stuff.)”