Uh-oh. Tragic and very unsettling news from Gaza about extreme discord and violence being used among the general circles of Fateh there.
Specifically,
- About 100 masked militants stormed the heavily guarded home of Gaza’s former security chief early Wednesday, dragged him out in his pajamas and killed him in a burst of gunfire
While many prepare to celebrate Israel’s Gaza pullout , Palestinian leaders fear that without an Israeli agreement to open up Gaza’s borders and allow businesses to freely export, the impoverished region will be doomed to a future of unending despair.
Helena, are you sure the assassination of Moussa Arafat represents discord within Fatah? I wouldn’t really call the PRCs part of Fatah any more.
And it looks like an agreement on the Gaza borders is imminent.
BTW, while I agree that the withdrawal from Lebanon was a good thing, I’m sure most Israelis would rather have the Lebanese army patrolling the southern border than Hizbullah.
Also, I doubt that many Israelis outside the far right would want to see chaos in Gaza. This goes even for Sharon, whose continued political career now depends on the withdrawal being seen as successful.
Jonathan,
I think that you are correct that very few Israelis would want to see chaos in Gaza. However, I don’t believe that what Israel wants is the relevant question. The issue is whether or not the Palestinians have the comittment to do what needs to be done to ensure that there isn’t chaos in Gaza.
I firmly believe that, as long as armed bands are allowed to roam freely, there will be violence. I also think that Ziad Abu Amr got it backwards. Inter-family and inter-clan competition is the norm; not the exception. The question is whether or not the leadership has the means to control this competition and, more important, whether the population will continue to support the leadership should it not have the will or the wherewithall to do so.
BTW, in all the reporting that I have heard today on Kol Yisrael from Gaza, no one is too upset with the fact that the “general” isn’t around any more.
JES, I would listen to Gaza-born PLC member, political scientist, and high-level political negotiator (and a good friend) a hundred times before I’d listen to any Israeli self-styled “expert”. What are your credentials?
I just heard Ehud Ya’ari on Channel 2. He says that Abu Samadani and the PRC have openly announced that members of Hamas took part in the assassination of Musa Arafat.
Helen,
I don’t really think that there’s any call for you to be so strident.
I am entitled to express an opinion. I am sure that Ziad Abu Amr sees things in light of his position and his ideological leanings. I see things within the context of my training in the social sciences and as a long-time resident of the Middle East.
You are entitled to believe whomever you want and to be a self-styled “expert” in your own right.
i also don’t believe that the PRCs can really be associated with Fatah. maybe i’m wrong about this, but i’ve always seen it as an organization that exists simply as an outlet for consistent and constant “armed struggle” against Israel with little other political ideology. now maybe this takes away some people who previously would have supported Fatah (non-religious types who support armed struggle) but i don’t think it makes it a Fatah offshoot or anything of the sort. again, this is based on my limited knowledge of the PRCs, so I could be wrong.
Also, i don’t think Gaza can be compared to Lebanon, simply as a result of the size, population density, poverty, etc. i recommend Sara Roy’s article Praying with Their Eyes Closed for more on this.
“You are entitled to believe whomever you want and to be a self-styled “expert” in your own right.”
Gee, how magnanimous of JES to say so, since last time I checked this was still HELENA’S blog.
Helena, thanks for this blog and all your work; it’s greatly appreciated.
What I do know is that the vast majority of Israelis now seem happy with the results of the 2000 withdrawal from Lebanon, five years on. There, people both sides of the international border have been able to rebuild their lives and communities after many long years of insecurity and– on the Lebanese side at least– huge amounts of physical and human destruction.
Helen, the goal for the Israeli invasion of south Lebanon was to destroy the state of Lebanon that done even they withdraw by the civil ware as you said
I know the Gaza-Lebanon anlogy is not an exact one, and have written here somewhere before that the possibility of stability along the international border between Gaza and Israel after Israel’s unilateral withdrawal– which has NOT been completed yet, of course– has some significant additional sources of instability that the international Israel-Lebanon border did not have in May 2000.
Primarily that some 80% of Gaza’s residents are refugees from 1948 Israel with huge outstanding claims against Israel that are not currently even being negotiated by Israel; and with correspondingly little actual self-interest in seeing the rebuilding of Gaza per se. As opposed to the people of south Lebanon who were in (or able to return to) their ancestral villages and had a strong interest in building up their villages and their region there.
Another is that in Lebanon you had a state that, though functioning badly, was still a state. As opposed to in Palestine…. ?
Plus, Israel’s withdrawal from Lebanon left the Lebanese citizenry’s territorial claims against israel substantially satisfied, give or take a Shebaa Farm or two– whereas the Palestinian citizenry’s territorial claims against Israel will still be massively unrealized… Even if we disaggregate the political-sovereignty dimension of the Palestinians’ claim– which is to the whole of the WB as well as Gaza– from the ‘mere’ property dimensions of it– that are to properties inside Israel, as well (and that MAY, after negotiation, be satisfied through compensation.)
Let all those negotiations– over the Palestinians’ still unaddressed soveriegnty claims and property claims– start and be pursued with seriousness and speed!
Anyway, the dissimilarities with Lebanon notwithstanding there are still numerous similarities (as I’ve also written here.)
In both places, having the armed forces of a duly constituted independent state controlling the whole territory and all of its borders would of course be far preferable to having armed militias play any of these roles.
Too bad the IDF shelled the Lebanese Army when it attempted to deploy in South lebanon in March 1978, huh?
I’m hopeful that rceent pronouncements from Sheikh Hassan Nasrallah indicate Hizbullah is moving toward a disarmament/decommissioning formula. In Palestine, the suppression of all non-state armed actors will be complex and (to put it mildly) a multifaceted challenge.
JES, btw, I’d say that you seem to be one of the most ideological commenters here. So I found your claim that Ziad sees things, “in light of his position and his ideological leanings” while you see them oh-so-coolly and neutrally in light only of your “training in the social sciences and as a long-time resident of the Middle East” very amusing indeed.
I wasn’t being strident. I had explained for the benefit of any readers who’re not familiar with Ziad’s work how I see the strength of his credentials as an analyst of political matters inside Gaza; and I asked what yours were. Why your defensiveness? (Oh, perhaps because you could not, actually, adduce any particular credentials in the matter at all.)
a reader,
Yes, I am aware that it is Helena’s blog. It is not Helena’s world though, and she has opened this blog up to comments. As far as I can see, everyone on this blog is pretty much a “self-styled expert”.
Helena,
First of all, my remark about Ziad Abu Amr’s ideological bent was not meant as a value judgement. I did not say that he was “hot” and that I am “cool”. I simply voiced another opinion, and clearly stated that this is what I thought.
Secondly, I very explicitly stated what my academic background was following your last strident attack when you told me that I should learn more about American society.
But I really don’t think that one has to be an “expert” to see the divisiveness in Palestinian society based on extended family or clan relationships. (For example, just a few days ago, a Muslim clan raided the West Bank village of at-Taiba and terrorized its residents over a matter of “family honor”).
I have a strong feeling that, were you to pose the question to Dr. Abu Amr, he would probably agree that one of the main challenges for any emerging Palestinian state government is to reign in the inter-clan competition.
Helena, I do not claim to be an “expert”, but I don’t think that this precludes me from having a reasonably informed opinon. This is, as “a reader” said your blog. And perhaps you could take on some objectivity. For example, why attack me, with challenges to my ability to have an informed opinion, and then put on the kid gloves when somebody accuses Israel of having tried to destroy Lebanon? Why make statements about people being racist, and then not respond when questioned about it? Why end a discussion with the ad hominem that Camera.org is “harshly anti-Palestinian”, and then not substantiate the charge when asked?
Yes, I am aware that it is Helena’s blog. It is not Helena’s world though, and she has opened this blog up to comments. As far as I can see, everyone on this blog is pretty much a “self-styled expert”.
I didn’t say you didn’t have a right to express your opinion – don’t twist my words.
Rather, I was commenting on, what I view, as your arrogant demeanor in telling the owner of this blog, “You are entitled to believe whomever you want and to be a self-styled “expert” in your own right.”
Somehow, I think this point will be lost on you.
Cheers
”Israel of having tried to destroy Lebanon?”
This is fact, when we talking as Arab and Muslims we knew before you born what Hertzil up to and how the Israeli state started and what the ideology built on.
By assuming we are racist this is fake and funny clams by kid like you, looks to your comments and to all the Israeli behaviours and ideology, there is no doubt the state of Israel built on racist ideology you agree or not dos not matter but the acts of Israelis and behaviours prove this facts.
a reader,
Before you comment on my supposed arrogant demeanor, I suggest you go back and look at the demeanor of the owner of this blog. My statement was a reaction, not a provocation.
Salah,
You, sir, are a demagogue.
Before you comment on my supposed arrogant demeanor, I suggest you go back and look at the demeanor of the owner of this blog. My statement was a reaction, not a provocation.
Actually, I think Helena has shown remarkable restraint and patience.
Cheers
All these years I thought that Lebanon was torn by a nasty intestine civil war. Helena lived there, she probably remembers. But somehow in Salah’s mind Lebanon was the pearl of the Middle East until you know who broke it into pieces. I know, Herzl in 1897 had a plan to destroy Lebanon in 1980, it is all part of a master plan.
Equal doses of denial and ignorance make a potent mix indeed Salah.
David
Helena,
Primarily that some 80% of Gaza’s residents are refugees from 1948 Israel with huge outstanding claims against Israel that are not currently even being negotiated by Israel; and with correspondingly little actual self-interest in seeing the rebuilding of Gaza per se.
I’m not sure why the one would follow from the other. Property claims aside, Gaza is the place where they now live and where the great majority of them were born. I’d say that most people have an intrinsic interest in making livable the place where they reside and where they will continue to reside for the foreseeable future.
BTW, as I know you’re aware, Israel isn’t currently negotiating the property claims but has done so in the past. All the final-status proposals made in 2000-01 included compensation packages plus the right of return for a limited number of refugees (I believe the figure proposed at Taba was 40,000 with priority for those with family in Israel). So the issue is on the table when final-status negotiations resume.
In both places, having the armed forces of a duly constituted independent state controlling the whole territory and all of its borders would of course be far preferable to having armed militias play any of these roles. Too bad the IDF shelled the Lebanese Army when it attempted to deploy in South lebanon in March 1978, huh?
Yes, that was bad – but March 1978 is March 1978, and there have been 27 years under the bridge since then. Israeli political attitudes and policies, especially toward Lebanon, have undergone quite a bit of change since then. I very much doubt that Israel would shell the Lebanese Army if it deployed along the border now.
I hope this isn’t the reason the Lebanese Army is holding back from a border deployment. Viewing current policies exclusively through the lens of the past (and Israel is certainly guilty of this as well) can lead to very unhealthy decisions.
BTW, do you know any details on exactly what assurances Nasrallah is looking for in return for disarmament? The reports I’ve seen have been very non-specific in that regard.
Rabbi Ovadia Yosef : Hurricane punishment for pullout
Full of lies and racist this is your follow leaders….
helena,
yes, you certainly made no claim that the gaza situation was exactly like lebanon, and thank you again for spelling out some of the differences and parallels.
as for ovadia yosef, it seems to me that levee maintenance probably played a bigger role in the disaster than the level of torah study among blacks in new orleans. but hey, i’m no expert (though certainly that’s a hotly disputed term on this comments thread).
Rabbi Ovadia Yosef is widely considered a crackpot by Israelis.
Jonathan
When some kids shouting and dancing in occupied Palestrina, US media keep streaming these photos to show you till you got sick of it. But Rabbi Ovadia Yosef an effective member in Shas Religious Party in a collation with Sharon he is “a crackpot” Those US media showed you those kids suffered a lot by Israelis occupations of their land keep silent not bothered.
But Rabbi Ovadia Yosef an effective member in Shas Religious Party in a collation with Sharon
Shas isn’t part of the coalition, and if you want to see what Israelis think of Rabbi Yosef, you can look here.
BTW, you’re absolutely correct in saying that it’s wrong to blame all Palestinians for the things a few of them say and do. But at the same time, you seem quite willing to project the words of Rabbi Yosef onto all Israelis. Do you see the double standard here?
But at the same time, you seem quite willing to project the words of Rabbi Yosef onto all Israelis. Do you see the double standard here?
We being out of topics, but this is final, sorry Helena
The Truth Jonathan no one like it, and when its comes to accusing Israeli we all becomes
Salah, it isn’t really very hard to understand.
On the one hand, you object to people blowing individual Arab or Palestinian acts out of proportion and projecting them onto all Palestinians. You’re absolutely correct to make that objection, because doing this is wrong. If people tell lies about Arabs or make accusations without proof, they should be called on it.
On the other hand, you have time and again taken the words or actions of individual Israelis and used them to accuse all Israelis of being racist or “evil” (you’ve used the word “evil” on at least one occasion). You also keep making accusations without proof – such as your statement that there’s a map in the Knesset showing Israel from the Nile to the Euphrates – and then you refuse to listen when people who’ve actually been in the Knesset say that isn’t so.
So tell me, Salah – if that kind of tactic is wrong when supporters of Israel do it to Arabs, then why is it right when you do it to Israelis? Are Israelis not entitled to be judged as individuals, just like Arabs are?
I’ve hijacked Helena’s thread enough already, so this will be my last statement on the subject.
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