I can’t resist writing something quickly about the Lebanese elections. And about the Michel Aoun phenomenon.
I thought I’d lost my capacity to be amazed (and frequently amused) at Lebanese politics many, many years ago… Maybe around 1983 or 1984, when I saw the brutally anti-Palestinian Falangists aligning themselves with Fateh against the Syrians…
Well, the kaleidoscope that is Lebanese politics has been twisted and re-twisted many times since them. With each twist the colored pieces fall into a new, and ever more amazing pattern…
We pick up the tale in late February of this year. Then, in the aftermath of the dastardly killing of Rafiq Hariri, the mainstream media in the US started crowing about the newfound strength and power of what they called the Lebanese “opposition”. Opposition, that is, in relation to Syria’s then-stifling military and political presence in the country.
At that point, Aoun was still in exile, rallying his supporters against Syria’s presence in the homeland he had been chased out of some 15 years earlier.
And many neocons and others close to the Bush administration in Washington were braying about the imminent victory of the Lebanese “opposition”, and the need for both a Syrian withdrawal, and the speedy disarming of Hizbullah…
Okay, since then, the Syrians have left Lebanon, and Aoun has returned. Has this led to the victory of the “opposition” forces– and is Lebanon now that much closer to the disarming of Hizbullah?
No, indeed. For a number of reasons. One is that none of the “parties” in the Lebanese “opposition”– with the possible exception of Aoun’s own Free Patriotic Movement– is really worthy of the name of “party” at all.
Another is that Aoun has suprised everyone on three crucial counts:
- (1) He has said that since the Syrians have now withdrawn, he’s not going to get drawn into continuing any anti-Syrian vendetta
- (2) , As a result, he has not joined with the “nativist” (and feudal) strands of the “opposition”; on the contrary, in many of the electoral districts he has run against them, and won; and–
(3) He has repeatedly stressed his longheld position that what Lebanon really needs is to abolish its creaking system of political sectarianism completely.
Aoun’s amazingly strong showing vis-a-vis the widely touted “opposition leaders” has many causes. One is probably his strong identification with the fight against nepotism, corruption, and political cronyism– phenomena that, sadly, tar just about every member of the group of “opposition leaders”The great mass of hard-pressed, ordinary Lebanese voters are completely fed-up with these practices.
In addition, far from being a strong, national coalition of robust political parties, the “opposition” has proved, throughout the three rounds of elections held so far, to be a creaky conglomeration of feudal or neofeudal blocs. The young people who stayed in the tent city in downyown Beirut for many weeks were drinking their own euphoria there much more than they were ever prepared to go out to the villages and towns and do the hard, consistent work of building a strong national political organization. And the “opposition leaders” who were much touted in the US MSM were mainly “abna’ a’ilat” (sons of wellknown families), whether these families were neodfeudal (e.g. Hariri) or paleofeudal (e.g. Jumblatt).
There is only one real political party that I know exists in Lebanon today — in the sense of being a disciplined, nationwide organization united around a single program and a single political vision, that pays attention both to grassroots organization and to national organization on a continuing basis. That’s Hizbullah.
It’s possible– and I’m not sure about this– that Aoun’s supporters could also be qualified to fall somewhat into this category. But his FPM hasn’t really been properly tested in open Lebanese politics yet.
But as for the rest of them? No. Feudal loyalties and unbalanced, completely top-focused political organizations still rule their day.
Which means that Hizbullah, with its discipline and impressive political smarts, has been able to run rings round them in the election this time. Jumblatt sees that he needs allies to save even his own usually safe seats in the Shouf? Who does he turn to? Hizbullah. Saad and Bahiyeh Hariri, the same.
But the party has also, elsewhere, been in close allience with the FPM….
I’ve written a lot about Hizbullah elsewhere. (E.g., here.) What interests me mainly this week is Aoun, Aounism, and the notable degree of support that Aoun has so far been able to muster at the polls.
Does this mean that there is a much larger swathe of Lebanese opinion (including, especially, Christian Lebanese opinion) that supports Aoun’s twin agendas of “normalizing” relations with Syria and pushing for deconfessionalizing the Lebanese political system, than I had previously thought?
Secularizing the political system is something that several Christian politicians have urged before… Including the first Pierre Gemayyel. Back in those days– the 1970s– it was hard to test the sincerity of that position. Both because of the ongoing calamity of the civil war, and because most of the politically powerful forces in the Muslim community still seemed so opposed to it.
But now, the major force in the Muslim community is, without a doubt, Hizbullah.
Might an alliance between Aoun and Hizbullah now be able to put secularizing (democratizing) the political system right onto the active agenda? That would be pretty exciting… To envisage Lebanon escaping from the ghastly trap of the rigidly confessionalized system and the emergence of a much more truly accountable and democratic politics there.
Well, who knows? To a certain degree, we still have to wait and see what will happen in the last round of voting this Sunday, in the two electoral districts up in the north. Between them, those districts have 28 seats in the parliament– and the “opposition” (such as it is) needs 19 of them if it is to have a majority in parliament.
One last point is probably still worth making, though. It is still great to see– despite all the differences and upheavals roiling around inside the Lebanese system– the remarkable degree to which the Lebanese people have been able to keep their interactions nonviolent. Not total, obviously. But still, remarkable. The lebanese people, of all the peoples of the Middle East, really understand the unbearable costs of civil war.
Long may their present violence-aversion continue.
Helena,
Interesting to read that you finally support the Bush doctrine, which,as you are well aware, calls for democratizing the entire Middle East. I fear however, that you are doing so only with evil intent.
In your most recent article published in the CHRISTIAN science monitor, referring to Hamas and Hezbollah, you write that “[the U.S. ] should encourag[e] the entry into the democratic process of politically effective, mass parties with whose policies they happen to disagree.”
Helena, should the U.S. encourage political parties that explicitly call for genocide to enter the democratic process of foreign nations? Should the U.S. have encouraged the entry of the Nazi party into pre-world war II German politics? After all, Adolf Hitler was democratically elected.
I encourage you to carefully read the political platforms of Hamas and Hezbollah before you advocate for the U.S. to intervenve on behalf of those genocidal Islamofascists.
As you rightly note, radical Islamofascist parties are very popular in Lebanon and “palestine.” They might even win a truly free and fair election in their respective jurisdictions. Once in power however, these thugs would have the full apparatus of the state (at least in the case of Lebanon), including an army, to carry out their genocidal plans against the Jews, and probably of the Lebanese Christians (if there are any left in Lebanon) as well. Hamas and Hezbollah, like the Nazi party before them, would be able to use the fact that they were democratically elected to provide legitimacy as they worked to carry out their stated political goals: mass murder.
Hamas and Hezbollah at the helm in “palestine” and Lebanon, respectively, is a sure recipe for further violence, not peace, since it’s highly unlikely that the IDF would sit back as two genocidal regimes developed on Israel’s borders.
If there is a choice between the Bush doctrine, calling for democracy everywhere in the middle east, or democratically elected genocidal regimes coming to power which would surely lead to war and endless bloodshed, some might argue that its best to throw the Bush doctrine down the toilet, at least when applied to “palestine” and Lebanon.
Contrary to your view, genocidalists such as Hamas and Hezbollah, like the Nazis, are much harder to stop after, not before, they rise to political power. Think of how many lives would have been spared had Hitler been the victim of a “targeted interception” prior to his election in 1933.
Finally, I fear that you speak out in support of of Hamas and Hezbollah for the sole reason that they advocate the destruction of Israel. It is really sad that a supposed liberal like yourself has such twisted, evil values, arguing on behalf of chauvenistic, homophobic, xenophobic and violent Islamo-fascist terrorist groups.
Shame on you.
Sorry, my comments regarding the bush doctrine aren’t clear in my last post. My point is, if the Bush doctrine of democratization means Hamas and Hezbollah rise to political power, likely leading to another Arab-Israeli war, the bush doctrine should be dumped for the sake of peace, at least as applied to Lebanon and “palestine.”
For the education of fellow readers, here is an excerpt from the covenant of the Islamic Resistance Movement,(HAMAS) a party whom Helena feels is deserving of American encouragement to enter the political process. After you read it, think to yourself, if HAMAS ever came to power in the middle east, would this likely lead to peace or bloodshed….?
“Our struggle against the Jews is very great and very serious. It needs all sincere efforts. The Islamic Resistance Movement is but one squadron that should be supported…until the enemy is vanquished and Allah’s victory is realized. It strives to raise the banner of Allah over every inch of Palestine…It is one of the links in the chain of the struggle against the Zionist invaders…
The Prophet, Allah bless him and grant him salvation, has said: “The Day of Judgement will not come about until Moslems fight the Jews (killing the Jews), when the Jew will hide behind stones and trees. The stones and trees will say O Moslems, O Abdulla, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him.'”….There is no solution for the Palestine question except through Jihad. Initiatives, proposals and international conferences are all a waste of time and vain endeavors. Palestine is an Islamic land.
Zionist organizations under various names and shapes, such as Freemasons, Rotary Clubs, espionage groups and others…are all nothing more than cells of subversion and saboteurs. The Islamic peoples should perform their role in confronting the conspiracies of these saboteurs.
Moslem society confronts a vicious enemy which acts in a way similar to Nazism. He has deprived people of their homeland. In their Nazi treatment, the Jews made no exception for women or children.
Our enemies took control of the world media. They were behind the French Revolution and the Communist Revolution….They were behind World War I, when they were able to destroy the Islamic Caliphate, making financial gains and controlling resources. They obtained the Balfour Declaration, formed the League of Nations through which they could rule the world. They were behind World War II, through which they made huge financial gains by trading in armaments, and paved the way for the establishment of their state. It was they that instigated the replacement of the League of Nations with the United Nations and the Security Council to enable them to rule the world through them. There is no war going on any where, without [them] having their finger in it.
The Palestinian Liberation Organization adopted the idea of the secular state, which completely contradicts the idea of religious ideology. The day the PLO adopts Islam as its way of life, we will become its soldiers, and fuel for its fire that will burn the enemies. Until that day, the Islamic Resistance Movement’s stand towards the PLO is that of the son towards his father, the brother towards his brother and the relative to relative, who suffers his pain and supports him in confronting the enemies, wishing him to be wise and well-guided….
The Zionist invasion is a vicious invasion. It does not refrain from resorting to all methods, using all evil and contemptible ways to achieve its end. It relies greatly on the secret organizations it gave rise to, such as the Freemasons, the Rotary and Lions Club, other sabotage groups. All these organizations work in the interest of Zionism… They aim at undermining societies, destroying values, corrupting consciences, deteriorating character and annihilating Islam. It is behind the drug trade and alcoholism in all its kinds so as to facilitate its control and expansion.
Writers, intellectuals, media people, orators, educators and teachers, and all the various sectors in the Arab and Islamic world
It’s none of your business, Derrick.
The Yankee must go home, that’s all.
Derrick– Please try to stick to the word limit for comments (as posted in the guidelines.) Also, please try to stick to the topic of the main post, which as you may have noted is Lebanese politics.
You seem filled with fearfulness. To the point of getting into escalatory name-calling and pulling in all kinds of fear-inducing accusations from goodness only knows where.
Why are you so fearful? If you were in Israel you would surely know that the northern border, with “Hizbullah-land”, has been exponentially calmer since Israel pulled out of Lebanon in 2000 than it was before then. Hizbullah did not “chase” Israelis back into their own country in hot pursuit, which they might well– after suffering 18 years of killings, gross oppression, and ravaging during Israel’s occupation of their country– have felt motivated to do.
Also, Hamas stuck pretty well to the recent ceasefire, until the IDF decided to resume its old habits of extra-judicial executions in the occupied territories.
If you’re concerned about the wellbeing of all these people, Israelis, Lebanese, Palestinians, I think the best thing you could do would be to seek paths of de-escalation and help to open up space for resolving differences through negotiation not escalation and name-calling.
Or perhaps you actually get some kind of a buzz out of your own paranoia?
[Aoun] has not joined with the “nativist” (and feudal) strands of the “opposition”
Quite a few zu’ama on his electoral lists all the same, though – the Murrs, Arslan and now Franjieh and Karami. The FPM itself may be a formally non-sectarian party but it has a very sectarian base.
Inter-sectarian rather than sectarian, I’d say. Aoun’s electoral coalition– like the anti-Syrian coalition’s. That is one of the advantages that the present Lebanese system has over a more classically consociational system– that it does actually reward building coalitions across confessional lines. In fact, in Lebanon it’s quite impossible to get elected without such coalitions.
Having said which, though, the idea of strict confessional distribution of parliamentary seats, as of government jobs, is the highly dysfunctional part of the present system.
Inter-sectarian rather than sectarian, I’d say. Aoun’s electoral coalition– like the anti-Syrian coalition’s.
The coalition is inter-sectarian, certainly. The FPM isn’t really, which is why Aoun had to reach out to the Druze and Orthodox (and now Sunni) zu’ama to make up his electoral lists rather than running party candidates. Call me cynical if you will, but it seems to me that he’s playing the game as a postmodern zaim, albeit with a base following that is founded in personal rather than feudal loyalty.
Re Hizbullah: is it really possible to speak of a “Muslim community” in Lebanon as opposed to Sunnis and Shi’ites? And regardless of HA’s future as a political party in Lebanon, is there any rational reason for them to remain armed at this point? (And just out of curiosity, what are the chances that HA will pick up on the Lebanese Forces’ federalist idea? Given their lock on Nabatiyeh governorate, federalism would enable them to remain a state within a state even if they give up their arms. HA/LF is a pretty strange alliance, but they’ve made a lot of those lately.)
Derrick, you seem to be confused about whether you support Bush’s alleged doctrine of democratizing the Middle East, or oppose it because groups like Hamas and Hezbollah might gain power. I suggest that you work out your own position before posting.
Hizbullah has zero support outside the shiite community and even within that there are other trends, less influential for sure, but then again, Hizbullah has an edge: the intimidation of weapons. Absolutely no one in lebanon sees Hizbullah as a national party, you must know that. The Druze overwhelmingly rally behind Jumblatt, the sunni behind Hariri, and the christians apparently behind Aoun. So please just call Hizbullah what it is, a shiite party that possesses weapons and therefore is the most destabilizing actor on the lebanese scene.
Helena,
Please don’t worry about Tony Badran and his posts. I read both of you for your insights and appreciate both of your perspectives. I am not entirely sure why Tony is often vindictive and occassionally hysterical, but such is life in the blogosphere. I hope both of you keep up the good work. It is a valuable service and one that can only be diminished by childish tit-for-tat.
When I said “national party” I meant more geographically than in trans-confessional terms. Because of the presence of three distinct areas of Shiite population in Lebanon the community has far less of a temptation to be centrifugal than other more geographically compact communities like the druze or the Maronites.
Having said that, I think the party does have some following among the Sunnis, though perhaps recently diminished.
Re a “muslim community”– yes, on some key political occasions they do all come together, including the Druze. Mainly that’s when they perceive a need to defend against Maronitist over-reaching, as in late 1982. At the Adha feast in around Dec ’82 Sunnis and Shias and Druze all worshiped in public together.
Some folks in the west seem to have (and others, to actively promote) the idea of longheld enmities and rigid divisions between Sunnis and Shias. It’s not quite like that. Of course there is a huge inherent problem in Lebanon in that one’s confessional affiliation– or more accurately, one’s father’s confessional affiliation– is inscribed on one’s national ID card from birth. What a ghastly colonial idea that is (in Lebanon as in Rwanda, Israel, or elsewhere.)
Some folks in the west seem to have (and others, to actively promote) the idea of longheld enmities and rigid divisions between Sunnis and Shias. It’s not quite like that.
Really? You should tell that to some folks not in the west, like Abu Musab al-Zarqawi, Osama Bin Laden, the Saudi Royal Family and their Wahhabi clerics.
They seem to have “longheld enmities” and “rigid divisions” with the Shiites.
Washington Post, February 28, 2005
Saudi Arabia (and more Sunnis) on Shiites:
I think it’s fair to say that not considering Shiites to be “true Muslims” is probably indicative of some kind of enmity or rigid division. Or is the Washington Post just part of those in the West “actively promoting” falsehoods that “aren’t quite like that”?
And here’s the AFP conspiring with USA Today to push the “myth” that the Wahabi hatred of the Shiites goes back centuries. :
Yeah. Muqtada al-Sadr, the eyes and ears of America.
There are very likely many pockets in the Muslim world where Sunnis and Shias get along famously. But it’s not Western propaganda that has been driving the horrendous and frequent Sunni on Shiite violence that’s destroyed several mosques just this past year or so in Pakistan.
30 dead in bomb attack on Pakistan Shiite mosque
Ten Die in (Shiite) Mosque Explosion in Pakistan
32 Die in (Shiite) Mosque Explosion in Pakistan
Pakistan (Shiite) Mosque Explosion Leaves 16 Dead
Sadly, that’s just a sampling.
And Zarqawi, Bin Laden and Prince Nayef are not reading Daniel Pipes or Paul Wolfowitz to learn how they’re supposed to be treating Shiites.
there are christians in the south, remember who was in the SLA, in the north, in beirut and in the mountains. Sunnis are in sidon, beirut, tripoli and the bekaa. So all three major groups are represented in the totality of lebanon’s geography. Hizbullah is funded by Iran, carries weapons in lebanon that challenge the state, and is a massive destabilizing element within the country as well as a block to foreign investment. Dec 82 was a special time as there was the israeli presence, but let’s not forget the druze and shia fighting in 1986-87 in beirut. That is of more recent vintage. And why not recall march 2005, for sunni-christian-druze praying and protesting together. I would love to see the end of sectarianism in lebanon, but there better be very strong minority rights included in the package, and unfortunately Hizbullah does not inspire much confidence on that. After all they are the party of god literally, they are not for secularization, they are for an islamic state. It is explicitly part of their mission. To gloss over this is irresponsible. Why do many of the same people who bemoan sectarianism in lebanon, clamor for more sunni representation in the political process in Iraq? Because in Iraq they fear the exclusion of certain key segments of the population. Well ditto for lebanon. The only difference I see is in the political leanings of the groups who fear exclusion vis a vis the west, which results in the different treatment they receive in the media
Derrick,
What exacly “genocidal Islamofascists”,
“genocidalists” mean ? Can you elaborate ? Are your opinions ‘cold’ analysis or your (raw) emotions ? Personally, I don’t trust emotionally-charged posts. Emotions tend to obscure (cold) analysis
Of course there is a huge inherent problem in Lebanon in that one’s confessional affiliation– or more accurately, one’s father’s confessional affiliation– is inscribed on one’s national ID card from birth.
here’s another tidbit about Lebanon’s creaky voting system–people don’t vote in the neighborhood where they live, but instead have to vote in the place where they were born.
all of the gerrymandering that’s been involved in this election makes the Republican party seem like pikers…of course, Amercian politics is brutal, but it’s not bloodsport, like the ME!
Andrew, the genocidalists are those who support, and who work to carry out the goals of Hamas, as expressed in Hamas’ own covenent, excerpted above. The genocidalists are Hamas, whom Helena Cobban would like to see the U.S. support if they happen to win an election in the palestinian authority. Just as the U.S. should not have supported the Nazis simply because Hitler was democratically elected, the U.S. shouldn’t support Hamas today, regardless of its electoral success. Unless you are in favor of another Arab-Israeli war, leading to further bloodshed and a further loss of allegedly palestinian land, there is no reason to support Hamas as head of the palestinian authority.
Thanks Derrick,
Let me then continue with questions: If Hamas might win free election,(they seem to have quite noticable support among population)- what would that say about the population itself ? Would it indicate that they are ‘bad’ people (electing ‘bad’ party into power), or that the circumstances are as such ?
Hummbumm, hi–
You make many excellent points, so thanks. I agree there are many reasons to be wary of Hizbullah’s longterm goals. However, they are far from being in a position today to impose any kind of a theocratic state, and so long as they say say that (1) they favor a nonconfessional, one-person-one-vote system and (2) they don’t intend to impose their views on anyone, it strikes me there is no harm in everyone trying to engage with them on that basis. With eyes wide open.
In addition, there is nothing to gain and a lot to lose from the US-led campaign to continue to quarantine and marginalize them. Hizbullah is not about to go away or wither on the vine. Far better, surely, to continue having them inside the political system than trying to exclude them?
Let me just add to this discussion that the situation in Lebanon today is somewhat similar to pre-civil war Lebanon.
Before the election of the elder (now dead) Suleiman Franjieh, It was Fouad Shehab and the Lebanese intelligence that kept the Zaims in check. The Deuxim (sp) Bureau was very powerful and capable of checking the power of not only the zaims but also of the PLO that was operating a state-within-a-state in Lebanon.
The power of the intelligence apparatus was eclipsed when Franjieh was elected president. He weakend and purged that apparatus which in part helped lebanon slide into civil war.
After the end of the Gulf war in 1991, Lebanon was proxied by Bush SR. for Syria to control. Syria, IMO, followed the Fouad Shehab formula of controlling the Lebanese Zaims, ie, give them a role in govt and allow them spoils, but empower the intelligence apparatus to prevent the system from falling apart. This was achieved with the election of Emile Lahoud who was also responsible for rebuilding the Lebanese Army.
Lahoud is the last remnant of the Syrian sponsored Itelligence apparatus in Lebanon. Jumblatt and Harriri want his head. But they should be carefull what they wish for. With his head comes to end of the intelligence apparatus that kept the chaotic and violence prone zaim system in check.
Hizballah today is the state-wihtin-the state that the PLO was back in the late 60s and early 70s. Granted HA has much more legitimacy in the eyes of the Shiite public in Lebanon, but it is still an exported party and still has its own military to protect itself from the Lebanese state.
US policy is pretty simple. The US wants to destroy HA since organizations like HA are the only ones that have ever forced an Israeli occupation to end w/o conditions. Aside from oil, Israel is the most important plank in US policy to the ME.
The US wants a post election Lebanese govt that will use its power to destroy HA. The question is who of the Lebanese factions will be willing to do the US bidding in Lebanon? I know that Aoun has his eye on the presidency, but is he willing to pursue the destruction of HA as per US request? Would the young Harriri be willing to play such a role? I really do not know the answer.
I will believe Hizbullah does not intend to impose their views on anyone when they disgorge their weapons. they have in fact imposed their views by insisting on retaining their weapons no matter what. Is that not an imposition? Naji makes good points, I don’t think the parallels are all there but Hizbullah is indeed operating as a state within a state. On internal lebanese politics, I am cautiously optimistic. There are two major flies in the ointment. Hizbullah and its arms and how to improve the situation of the palestinians in lebanon, while also imposing government control of these armed camps. Helena though respecting some of your views I do still believe that you are too rosy on Hizbullah. If the lebanese forces were to arm themselves to “protect lebanon vs. syria”, you and I would both be up in arms, seeing this as dangerous. Substitute Hizbullah and Israel, and it is okay? As someone who had a farm in the security zone in south lebanon, I know first hand that dealing with Hizbullah was as difficult as dealing with the israelis. Several employees were kidnapped by Hizbullah, they would launch attacks from our property putting us in danger of israeli retaliation. They are respected in the south, sure, but they are also feared, let us not forget that, and in towns like Marjayoun, Jezzine, Hasbaya, they are just plain feared. Their way is the way of the gun, though you do not support that you basically seem to ignore it
Derrick,
Your insistence on comparing Nazisms and Hamas or Palestinians makes me sick it is pure ideology. The Nazists persecuted the Jewish people and exterminated them in Germany and in all the territories they conquerred. Meanwhile, the Palestinians were thrown out of their land by Israel. I don’t see how you can compare the two when looking at facts.
Andrew,
When the Germans elected Adolf Hitler to power, what did that say about the German people? Were all Germans bad? No. But many Germans explicitly chose hatred and war over peace. The Germans were well aware of Hitler’s genocidal intentions; he laid it out for the German people in Mein Kampf. Similarly, Hamas has made no secret of its genocidal aims vis a vis the Jews of palestine. Were the palestinians to elect Hamas, it is a clear signal that many of them are not ready for peace or reconciliation with Israel, but are only interested in further bloodshed. Once again, the Palestinians need to be saved from themselves. If Hamas rises to power, a full fledged war, and another Arab defeat, is likely.
CHRISTiane,
Let’s not make this discussion a history of the Arab Israeli conflict, but you should learn your history: the Jews accepted the 1947 partition plan and the Arabs rejected it and attacked Israel in 1948. The “palestinians” were not thrown out of “their” land. 70% of the borders of mandatory palestine is now the country of Jordan. Had the Arabs accepted the partition plan, Israel would not be as large or powerful as it is today.
I’m not comparing the palestinians to the Nazis. I’m specifically comparing the genocidal idealogy of one very popular palestinian organization, Hamas, with that of the Nazis. The difference is in the 1930’s the Jews were unarmed and unable to defend themselves while the non-german CHRISTIAN world stood by and watched. Today that isn’t the case.
Helena,
Wouldn’t the election of Hamas and/or Hezbollah just give Israel an excuse, (in case Israel lacked enough excuses already), to pummel the Palestinians and south Lebanese? The radical Islamic groups, your love and sympathy for them notwithstanding, generally don’t play well in the non-Muslim world. I can’t fathom why someone so supposedly supportive of the palestinian cause would argue for the U.S. to support these radical groups even if they were elected.
Derrick, in case you can’t read my previous writings carefully, let me just repeat here that I don’t “support” Hamas and Hizbullah; more straightforwardly I believe the US and other governments should be prepared to talk to them. Including about any misgivings they have re their policies.
The policy of exclusion, marginalization, and attempts to “delegitimize” and suppress these parties has been pursued by the US and Israel for many, many years… With notable lack of success but at the cost of inflicting huge human and material losses on Lebanese and Palestinian society.
A commitment to democracy should certain;ly include a commitment to try to resolve political differences through nonviolent means.
I don’t see why this is hard to understand?
Derrick
“Were the Palestinians to elect Hamas, it is a clear signal that many of them are not ready for peace or reconciliation with Israel, but are only interested in further bloodshed”
Derrek, I think you can not put it in this context if the Palestinians to elect Hamas because there are many factors make this happen, the frustrations of the Palestinians from the Israelis with daily home distraction more killing more valances more assassinations……, in other hand the frustrations of the Palestinians from both Arabs states and International community in regard of thier problems for more that 50 years.
Can we say same thing for the Israeli elected Ariel Sharon that means what!!!?
I am not with you by putting Black and White statues; you need to read all the factors that playing on the ground. Personally I am not supporter for Hamas or Hizb Allah but there is no chose there are their, work with them.
I am LEbanese. I am Christian. THis “Derrick” is a fool. Hezb Ahllah has no friends that are not Shiite. Poor Shiite at that. The rest of us Lebanese HATE THEM. That is why they have to go to the inferior Iranians for support instead of other Lebanese. They are nto even a majority in Lebanon. They cannot take over Lebanon. If they did, I and the rest of the Lebanese brothers would fight them and slaughter them. You seem to hate Palestine and LEbanon because of a few idiodic Muslim parties. Get over it! They are nto that popular. You seem to think there are Jews in Lebanon. This is not the case. They all left for Brooklyn years ago. So how can these Muslim parties do as you say here
“Once in power however, these thugs would have the full apparatus of the state (at least in the case of Lebanon), including an army, to carry out their genocidal plans against the Jews, and probably of the Lebanese Christians (if there are any left in Lebanon) as well. ”
Also, there are MANY CHRISTIANS STILL IN LEBANON. Just like me. We predominate in many areas. Why are there Christians running for office? Why is the puppet heathen president a Christian? Your condisention and ignorance of Lebanon is astounding. Also when you said that Hitler was ‘elected”, you again are wrong. He was appointed. That is not an election.
In Lebanon we hate foreigners and foreign proxies (except for those idiot Maronties and their love of the French and Americans and any other blonde hair heathen that invades our land). The Shiites have no natural allies. All the Lebanese are disgusted by them. They are down there with the Palestinians to most people. They are descended from Persian invaders and they try to bring that Persian dog Mohammed Katami into our country. They court with those heathen invaders and then expect us to yield to them?!! Never. The Shiites and especially their Hezb Allah are the biggest problem facing Lebanon since the invasion of the heathen crusaders from Europe. No Lebanese would vote for them. A Persian would but not a Lebanese. If there is another war involving Lebanon, I put the blame explicitly on Hezb Allah—>Iran because Hezb Allah=Iran. Iran=heathesn=down fall of Lebanon. We cannot have peace with the Shiites but you show little knowlege of the other sects who balance out the heathens in the south. Maronites, Armenians, Sunnah, Greek Orthodox (my sect) and so forth. Lebanon is NOT a Muslim country, it is Christian. We have established it to be that way and it will stay as such.
Samir al-Ghassani
I agree with you, the problem in with some, they think we are scattered individuals Arab states, the reality we are one NATION from ARABIC GULF/ EAST to ATLANTIC OCEAN IN THE WEST, these 22 Arabic state speaks one language the roots is the same tribes they have same history and we proud of it.
They are so naive that even they knew the truth they try to diverted for some reason in there hart I can say it
Samir,
Thanks for enlightening me about Lebanese politics and demographics. For some reason I got the impression that many Christians have emigrated from Lebanon, but perhaps I am wrong. I have this fear that someday Lebanon will become an Islamic state since many Christians have left and the Muslims have many more children. Plus the Hezbollah are fanatics and they just might be willing to sacrifice more than the Christians to seize power. I think this is the same situation in the Palestinian areas, like in Bethleham where the Christian population has decreased. I know there are no Jews in Lebanon, but Hezbollah would like to kill Jews even outside of Lebanon, ie in Buenos Aires, Argentina, where they blew up the community center in 1994.
Here is the ethnic breakdown of Lebanon according to the CIA world fact-book:
Muslim 59.7% (Shi’a, Sunni, Druze, Isma’ilite, Alawite or Nusayri), Christian 39% (Maronite Catholic, Melkite Catholic, Armenian Orthodox, Syrian Catholic, Armenian Catholic, Roman Catholic, Protestant), other 1.3%.
You say Lebanon is a Christian country, but Muslims are the majority. That doesn’t make it a Muslim country anymore than the fact that because there are more women than men in the U.S., the U.S. is a womens’ country. But today, it seems hard to argue that Lebanon is a Christian country.
Derrick
Hezbollah would like to kill Jews even outside of Lebanon, ie in Buenos Aires, Argentina, where they blew up the community center in 1994.
That the key point, these guys (Iranian backed, and Iranian background) they do and speak what ever they can heart Islam and Muslim that the drama. look to Iran the Jew there no one kill them these groups hired and supported by Iran doing the dirty jobs in our society in name of Islam, Islam never and ever allowed any Muslim to kill any Christian or Jew the history gave us a good prove for what I am saying and specially in the west when Islam was in the middle of Europe.
But we got these fanatics on our ground colour themselves as Muslims but they are not, and some parties sport them to make harm to the Arab nation and divided them to rise the hatred against them around the world by these dirty acts of these groups.
If we need to kill this DOG and save the world from these fanatics we should face Iran and stop the support of these group , not the MOUTH OF THE DOC living between Lebanon
This might come a bit late in the dicussion, but I feel compelled to insert a few corrective comments on what us “Lebanese” think of Hizb Allah:
It is not true that Hizb Allah has no support outside the Shiite community. What they don’t have outside the Shiite community is unconditional support. My mother’s family comes from Marji’youn (i.e. Christian) and they, along with other Christians, vote for Hizb Allah candidates, but not for their list. Members of the family living in Marji’youn have had nothing but decent treatment from Hizb Allah.
There are also active secularists in Lebanon who work with Hizb Allah on common issues. In addition to that, there are many in my community in Beirut (of different confessions, I must add) who do not support Hizb Allah per se, but see in them a stable force against US meddling in an extremely ideologically flexible political elite. The same way many of us supported Aoun in his stand against the Syrians even as he was shelling us.
It seems to me most of the anti-Hizb Allah drivel in the blogosphere is ideologically driven. It is also not surprising coming from Lebanese themselves since bloggers do not exactly represent a cross-section of the Lebanese community. Granted, Lebanese politics and society are complex, but why drop the complexity when it comes to Hizb Allah?
Well, Helena, maybe you did not intend so, but I thought your Boston Review article did give the impression that you supported Hizbullah. You were idolizingly glowing of Hizbullah for the first half of the article. To your credit you mentioned Hizbullah’s annihilation-of-Israel rhetoric in detail later on. But your only answer to that came off as, “Oh, they’re not REALLY that way.” That has been the general theme of most of your comments on Hizbullah: They’re not REALLY like the horrific rhetoric they do for the Arab crowd. Such whistling in the graveyard is not acceptable. In keeping with Derrick’s theme I have to wonder if in the 1930’s there were people who figured Nazi rule wasn’t going to be so bad because the Nazi’s would never really be as bad as in their Mein Kampf rhetoric.
Bottom line, there’s no excuse for the nightmarish rhetoric of Hizbullah or Hamas, and so Derrick’s attitude to them is reasonable. For that not to be so Hizbullah and Hamas has to explicitly renounce the annihilation rhetoric. If the “Arab crowd” insists on that rhetoric there’s something very wrong with the soul of this so called crowd. None of this requires endorsing settlements or the bulldozing of homes. No injustice committed by the Israeli government would be condoned. The annihilation rhetoric has to be abolished before we can really believe in the rosy picture of Hizbullah that you seemed to support.
Helena, I do think Derrick was often rude to you. But I’m glad he spoke out at least. I’m worried too about the possibility of a second Holocaust, and warm feeling to Hamas and Hizbullah give the impression that the world is being condition to embrace that Second Holocaust. That embrace has to be fought against.
BTW: Salah, yes we CAN say the same thing about Israeli voters for Sharon. Every effort must be made to support the anti-Sharon opposition so that they will oust him in the next election.
Thanks for hearing me out, Helena.