In this piece on the Israeli settlements issue in the NYT today, Isabel Kershner and Mark Landler report this:
- Mr. Mitchell has been negotiating reciprocal measures with Israel’s Arab neighbors, in which they would take steps, like granting visas to Israeli citizens or allowing Israel to open trade offices in their capitals, in return for Israel’s action on settlements. But administration officials say the onus is on Israel to show progress.
Is this really true? They give no source for the claim.
I certainly hope it is not. There has always been a fear that Washington’s response to the Arab Peace Initiative might be to require the Arab states to make a substantial upfront deposit on the “normalization”-type steps they promise to give Israel in the wake of conclusion of the satisfactory Israeli-Palestinian peace agreement.
For them to be expected to make good on some of these promises simply in return for Israel stopping undertaking the illegal acts it has been carrying out for 42 years now defies belief.
Remember the history of Oslo…. As a direct result of Oslo Israel won normalization with around 32 countries around the world that had previously expressed their solidarity with the Palestinians by withholding full relations with Israel.
Israel won those enormous benefits, which opened significant new markets for its arms industry in many rich countries in East Asia, while the Palestinians won… nothing except incarceration in the ever-shrinking open-air prisons that the West Bank and Gaza soon after became.
Actually, there is some reason to wonder about the accuracy of the NYT writers’ claim about Mitchell’s position. After all, which of “Israel’s Arab neighbors” might they be referring to? Israel has five Arab neighbors. With two of them– Egypt and Jordan– Israel has full peace treaties, and Israeli citizens and business-people can get visas very easily. The other three are Palestine, Syria, and Lebanon.
Israel itself prevents its citizens from visiting occupied Palestine (except in the context of doing army service there.)
So is Mitchell negotiating the kind of “reciprocal steps” Kershner and Landler write about with Syria and Lebanon? I highly doubt it.
The way the NYT writers and their editors refer to the settlements is also mealy-mouthed and misleading. They write:
- Almost 300,000 Israelis now live in settlements in the West Bank, excluding East Jerusalem, among a Palestinian population of some 2.5 million. Much of the world considers the 120 or so settlements a violation of international law.
Why not count the settlers in East Jerusalem, too?
I am certainly assuming and hoping that when Clinton and other administration officials talk about a settlement freeze they at least are talking about the settlements inside Jerusalem as well as elsewhere in the West Bank.
The whole settler-vs.-Palestinians question is at its most intense and tinderbox-ish inside Jerusalem… And Jerusalem is a city that all Arab and Muslim leaders care about, passionately.
Reporting in the NYT, particularly on Middle East issues, is frequently so delusional that I wonder why I even bother to read it online anymore. While it has been said that an infinite number of monkeys at typewriters would, given infinite time, eventually produce a perfect script of “Hamlet”, I venture to guess that to produce the accurate and substantive portion of a typical NYT article on Israel/Palestine would require only one monkey and only a few minutes.
For them to be expected to make good on some of these promises simply in return for Israel stopping undertaking the illegal acts it has been carrying out for 42 years now defies belief.
Hey, I think this makes perfectly good sense. For a substantial portion of those 42 years the Arab League was bound by its three “NOs” from Khartoum. I think that it’s all well and good to put pressure on Israel. At the same time, I think that the US should stop pandering to the Arabs and tell them to put up or shut up as well.
This issue clarifies the viewpoint of some of the settlers.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/may/27/israel-palestinian-water-dispute
Throw five Palestinians out to rpreserve enough water for a new settler.
Cromwell’s slogan for the Irish was “To Hell or to Connaught”. We have never forgiven him.
The Red Dead feasibility study is going to have to clarify how the fresh water is going to be distributed to the West Bank farms and the Jordanian aquifers.
Israel argues that the water problem should be solved by finding new sources, through desalination and water treatment.
“There is not enough water in this area,” said Dreisen. “Something must be done. The solution where one is giving water to the other is not acceptable to us.”
That’s exactly right. The Palestinians and Israel need to concentrate on developing these resources. Fouad Bateh and other Palestinian officials should stop whining about “new wells” (which will only create more problems) and start cooperating on long-term projects.
I clx’ed my NYT’s a long time ago. The few columns I read,like Krugman, I read online.
The crowning blows for me were Judy Miller and an article by Tom Freidman on the Egyptian-US-Israel cotton export/import deal several years ago.
“My head is flat” Freidman wrote a glowing article about how Egyptians were clebrating the “new’ deal that required them to use as least 20% Israel goods in their cotton exports or lose access to importing into the US from their free trade zone.
While Freidman was reporting the celebrations over this new “partnership” between Egypt and Israel in the NYT, the European and Egyptian press was describing the ‘riots’ on the street in Egypt because a third of all Egyptians employed in the cotton industry lost their jobs to this new requirement that Israeli produced material be used in their cotton exports.
This is a perfect example of why, besides the Palestine issue, the ME countries hate the US….the ‘strongarming’ of other countries economics by the US to gain a benefit to Israel goes on all the time…and it hurts the US, not to mention that countries that get strongarmed by Uncle Sam.
And a perfect example of why Israeli activist and supporters shouldn’t be allowed to mislead the public in our major newspaper.
These days when I read anything having to do with the ME I do a nexis lexis search on the author or reporter to see whether or not he or she has any personal agenda they promote in their work and reporting. And these days more do than not…a sad condition for our so called press an a crime against the public.
In short, I wouldn’t wipe my dogs ass with the NYT’s.
What a shill you are jes…. You ignore the whole point of the article with your hasbarisms:
Israelis get four-fifths of scarce West Bank water, says World Bank Palestinians losing out in access to vital shared aquifer in the occupied territories
and your solution is for the Palestinians and folks who dare to look at the science to “quit whining”
Maybe the solution is for Israelis to use their own water and stop stealing somebody else’s. Ah, but that would be whining.
What a hack u r
I certainly hope it is not.
Helena, I really surprised this things NEW to you while most ME people knew that? Are you really cut off the realities in ME ? or you new in the ME? or you try to play some things here?
This is not out of the blue. This very old idea that most Israelis / Zionists marketing.
The argument of how land Israel have comparing with her Arab neighbours, also the argument of Palestinians refugees are made by Arab themselves by not allowing/granted Palestinians refugees citizenship and settle them on vast big Arab “ uncultivated wasteland” .
So what’s strange if US envoy talking about this long standing the west has hold it and supported Israeli on these claims Helena?
Helena, go talks to the majority of US they will tell you same stories and believes, I doubt it its strange thing to here or that US trying to push forward.
This outside of argument that Israeli not willing for peace with here neighbours that long lasting build on respect and defined lines of border that UN and international laws agreed on.
Instead Israelis threatening here neighbours and on going wars in the region gave Israeli more benefits that harms as Israeli have real alliance with US and the west not like the friendship with some shaky Gulf kingdom and rough regimes who have not support from their citizens and also they are tyrant.
This goes more deep as the Helena last post of Iran War and Israeli.
The big step forward for Israeli when Iraq dismantled and occupied by US now clear the field is more open and more accepting more radical Zionist idea of more land and more open doors for them to get their share from Walkcake that US telling isn’t Helena?
Btw, Helena with your believes and articulates of US will withdraw from Iraq in 2010, read this and I hope your stand as Human for the rights of other humans make changes as one of Quaker member, no worries not will change and all thing what you say and you write is HOTAIR not more not less, just look to Africa and hunger what the world did for them?
US troops could stay in Iraq for a decade
JES,
looks you fulfil your inside happiness things moved forward , despite your consistence attacking / labelling people here who guessing or telling things that you don’t love to here and its all “rationales, Nuts, or conspiracy theorist…..all these labels but on the ground things different.
I tell one thing about war with Iran /Israeli will be no war just comparing Iran case with Iraq how many Iraqi Scientists killed by Mossad? How many Israelis worked hard undercover to destroy Iraq technology for years with complete silence not on media as with Iraq.
The main fact of war is the sudden hit of the enemy without any notice, so the war with Iran in the media cheep way of faking things, finally don’t forgot the letter from Israeli to Iran highlighted the historical things that Iranian have of here help for the Jew to free them from Babylonian captivity and retuned most the Gold and all things that Nebuchadnezzar II taken them to Babylon.
What’s that smell?
If you care to look, iliketotouchmyself, at a map, you’ll see that he aquifer in question runs along the Green Line, i.e. it’s a shared resource and needs to be administered jointly. However, in the meantime, the Palestinians have not developed the means or skills to deal with the issue (apart from drilling wells and, yes it pains me to say, tapping into pipelines to steal water). This is probably due to the fact that an entire generation of young Palestinian men have developedd no other skills than to fire a Klaschnikov or an RPG – or, perhaps to put together and explosives belt. But that is another topic.
Both Israel and the Palestinians need to work together – and soon – to develop alternatives to the aquifers, primarily desalination. Israel, today, uses more water (and I question the report cited in the Guardian article, but we’ll leave it be) because it is an industrialized country. Most of that water is not used for drinking, bathing or flushing your crap down the toilet.
JES–you seem terribly mis-informed on the water issue. Here’s a highly credible source that describes the situation quite well: http://www.btselem.org/english/Water/Shared_Sources.asp
“The water crisis in the Occupied Territories resulted not only from the restrictions Israel placed on Palestinian residents, but also from Israel ‘s relatively minimal investment in water infrastructure.”
Have fun educating yourself!
JES, your characterization of other commenters with crude name-calling is completely out of bounds. I have only kept your comment there because it exemplifies, as a whole, the crude racist depths to which you have sunk.
What on earth do you mean by demeaning “an entire generation of young Palestinian men” in the way you do? You have NO IDEA what you’re talking about. If you’d had the guts to go to either the West Bank or Gaza any time recently you’d have seen– as I have– the vast majority of Palestinian young men and women studying and working hard to improve their skills, to master new technologies, and to undertake activities that make the lives of their compatriots as much better as they can be under the truly inhumane circumstances imposed on them by the governments you and your compatriots have elected.
How dare you come to my blog and be so vilely racist and arrogant?
“Shared aquifer”: what baloney you write. Once your government has withdrawn its forces to the June 4th, 1967 line, y’all can drill your side of the border and the Palestinians can drill their side. (And take your settlers with you.) That’s how the sharing gets rightly done.
This is ridiculous.
Why doesn’t Abbas just say there will be no more negotiations until Israel agrees to freeze the settlements? Why doesn’t Hamas say the same re Galid Shalit?
It is pretty rich for a partisan of Israel, which trains not only its young men but its young women, to use weaponry of every sort from the infantry carbine right through to nuclear armed bombers, to sneer at the supposed obsession among Palestinians with weapons training.
The sad truth is that people like JES cannot but reveal that their attitudes towards ‘Arabs’, is very similar to that of earlier generations of fascists towards Jews.
As Israel slides into open dis-association from the ‘softness’ of democracy and freedom of speech, the masks its apologists wear begin to slip. And underneath there is the very familiar visage of the snarling racist, whose contempt for the ‘other’runs the gamut from “let them drink champagne” to “they commit suicide, don’t they.”
One senses a desperation to put an end to discussions which are beginning to conclude that, with the best will in the world, the case to support Israel with its insatiable thirst for land and power and its utter disregard of opinion, convention, taste, precedent or law cannot be suffered to continue to drag humanity towards Armaggedon, leaving a trail of broken countries and dead people behind them.
Right on, JES! Tell it like it is!
You know Helena, sometimes you are so transparent. You can ignore the names and vitriol thrown at one side and then turn around and come down on the other. I don’t know how many times I’ve had to put up with the attitude of “I know what the truth is… all the rest is hasbara”, including from present company (and let’s not forget the “Anschlusses” and “Israel uber Alleses”). Why don’t you just go back and look at what this “person” has said over the course of the past two days, and then come back to me with your repremands!
As far as generalizations about “entire generations of Palestinian men and women” go, I think that you are hardly in a position to complain here. You’ve made, in the past, generalizations about “latte drinkers” and about what you call the “IOF”. And just yesterday, someone calling himself “Carroll” made a generalization about Israelis being thieves and monkeys. Why don’t you go and lecture him. I’d be happy to have my knuckles slapped with a ruler after in that case!
BTW, for the record, there is nothing racist about my remarks. I have not said that the Palestinians are somehow limited genetically or inferior. They can (and should), however break out of the antiquated political and social structures that have held them back for so long.
JohnH, there are many credible sources, many of which are not as heavily politicized as b’tselem. In any event, I don’t think that what you have cited is really in disagreement with what I have stated. If you go back and read my original post, you’ll see that that is the case.
I have checked again. The aquifer in question clearly runs along the Green Line. It needs to be shared. Helena is just plain wrong. What’s more, Israel is rapidly coming to the conclusion that it needs to do even more that it is to recycle water and, above all, to speed up the construction of desalination plants along the coast.
The Palestinians have a choice. They can either cooperate with Israel in these efforts or they can go it alone. But, somehow, I am reminded about that old blues song “You don’t miss your water, till your well runs dry”.
Helena
Do you think Obama will announce sanctions against Israel in Cairo next week?
Frank,
Whatever you are smoking, I want some of it!
Actually JES remarks are no more racist than Helena’s claim that Israelis as a class are “bellophilic” or that they are seeking war with Iran, both gross generalizations about the “hostile” nature of members of an “Other” group that can only be described as crude and escalatory. I’m surprised any Israeli feels comfortable commenting here in light of such overt group-hatred.
And yes, JES remark is also mild in comparison to *anything* written by Muezzin or Carroll. yet whereas I’m certain that JES knows that not all Palestinians are violent fanatics. “Carroll” truly believes his crap about Israelis being “scorpions”, “friends to no one”, cultists etc, claims that were totally ignored by the hall monitor, as is similar racist bile on almost every thread pertaining to Israel.
Do you think Obama will announce sanctions against Israel in Cairo next week?
No Frank. I think that he’s going to tell the Muslim world that they should was their hands to avoide getting swine… no,no, make that Mexican… no,no… make that Jew flu.
“there are many credible sources, many of which are not as heavily politicized as b’tselem”
Really? Could you let us know what they are? The Israeli government perhaps?
Bernard,
I’ll settle for the original World Bank report, which you can find here:
http://siteresources.worldbank.org/INTWESTBANKGAZA/Resources/WaterRestrictionsReport18Apr2009.pdf
It’s certainly less politicized – as well as being more detailed than what appeared in either the Guardian piece or the b’tselem piece cited by JohnH. (Although, the first line in the Executive Summary tells us that it was the Palestinian Authority who requested the study.)
Overall, however, I think that the study substantiates my argument that it is a combination of Israeli restrictions and Palestinian mismanagement that have contributed to the current situation:
“Whereas Israel is known for efficient water infrastructure and management, Palestinians are struggling to attain the most basic level of infrastructure and services of a low income country.”
(At the risk of a lecture by “Earth Mother”, perhaps the Palestinians might consider family planning and birth control rather than using “the Palestinian woman’s womb as a weapon” – sheesh, even Abu Amr only had one child!)
Further, in also confirms, yet again, that the aquifers in question run along the Green Line and need to be shared.
Memo to JohnH: You might also want to have a look at the the World Bank document. Have fun educating yourself!
Obama takes tough and risky stance on Israeli settlements
Obama made the demand after a White House meeting with Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas, building on unusually blunt language the day before from Secretary of State Hillary Clinton.
“Each party has obligations,” Obama said of the so-called Road Map to Peace, to which Israel is a party. “On the Israeli side, those obligations include stopping settlements.”
Even before Obama sat down with Abbas, however, Israel’s government sent the message that it will continue construction in the settlements… his renewed push on Israel — coming hours after Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu’s government signaled that it will keep building in the settlements — suggested an ambitious and perhaps high-risk strategy that could either jump-start peace talks or leave Israel angry and the U.S. looking weak.
US repeats settlement freeze demand
Barack Obama has repeated his call for Israel to stop settlement construction after holding talks with Mahmoud Abbas, the Palestinian president.
Obama’s comments, made alongside Abbas at the White House on Thursday, came as Israel appeared to rebuff Washington’s demand, made a day earlier, that it stop all settlement expansion without exception.
In remarks on Wednesday, Clinton said that Obama “was very clear” when Binyamin Netanyahu, Israel’s prime minister, visited the White House last week that “he wants to see a stop to settlements. Not some settlements, not outposts, not natural growth exceptions”.
But an Israeli government spokesman rejected Clinton’s remarks on Thursday, saying settlement activity would continue as usual.
Netanyahu: Settlements to expand
Israel’s prime minister has said that Jewish settlements in the occupied West Bank will continue to be expanded. “… it makes no sense to ask us not to answer to the needs of natural growth and to stop all construction.”
Barack Obama, the US president, pressed Netanyahu to halt all settlement activity when the two men met in Washington last week.
US aide rejects Middle East policy
Dennis Ross, Hillary Clinton’s special adviser on Iran, has rejected the idea of a link between that conflict and others in the region, a position that puts him at odds with the White House.
Barack Obama, the US president, has openly embraced the idea that peacemaking between Israel and the Palestinians would aid negotiation efforts over Iran’s nuclear programme.
Marwan Bishara, Al Jazeera’s senior political analyst, said it was likely that Ross would have to retract his statements or resign his post.
“He stands in 180 degree contradiction to his own president. This book [Myths, Illusions, and Peace] is going to undermine America’s policy in the Middle East”.
McClatchy thinks that all “we’ll” have done is earn Israelis’ wrath after they’ve slapped us down(!!!).
We’re about to see who runs the US government : Americans or Israelis.
I’m afraid that it’s Barak Obama who’s going to back down.
Will dance in the streets if wrong.
Yes, JES, since you affect to be so hurt at being characterised as a racist, you might reflect on the fact that those who urge ethnic groups they don’t like to breed less generally run the risk of incurring that epithet.
Hell Bernard, I also think that haredim and religious settlers should practice family planning. In this day and age, to have 10 kids is absurd, especially when the societies who have so many kids as a norm also tend to be impoverished and endemically short of resources.
To hold that opinion is not racist in any way. Remember Margeret Sanger and family planning?
BTW, who said that Palestinians are an ethnic group I don’t like? I guess that it’s quite okay for white Europeans to practice family planning – they are apparently members of ethnic groups that you don’t care for!
One of the worthwhile things about JWN is that it often looks for positive solutions to ME problems. It’s unhelpful that some of the comments detract fom this. Could people please be more constructive in the way they present their comments.
I agree Ric. It would be nice if people would be more respectful and not refer to others as “hasbaristas” and dismiss their arguments as simply “hasbara”. It would also be nice if people would refrain from insulting language like “Anschluss” for the annexation of Jerusalem, or “Israel uber Alles”. It would also be great if some people here wouldn’t automatically assume that others are getting paid to post, or that they are working for some government agency. (I think this last one reveals their own insecurity at not being able to dominate every discussion with their POV.)
I try to look for the middle ground, because I know that that is where difficult problems are solved. Extremists – those who want to transfer all Arabs out of Palestine and those who hold out their dream for a “Right of Return” – are, in my opion going to be frustrated.
Finally, it would be nice if people simply apologized when they were wrong. I know I have in the past, but it’s very difficult to get some people here to admit they are human.
who hold out their dream for a “Right of Return” – are, in my opion going to be frustrated.
What makes thier dream diffrent from YOUR dream of “Promised Land” JES?
What makes your 2000 years old dreem acceptable than those “human” who lived also thousands year on that land.
As human should be respected with their asset and thier lifes that distroyed by invasion/occupation of thier land?
Sorry Salah. I thought I was clear. Just as the idea of a “Greater Israel” without Arabs is unrealistic, so is the idea of a “Right of Return” to homes that no longer exist and the uprooting of millions of Israeli Jews that that would entail.
Sorry Salah. I thought I was clear.
JES,
I was clear in my words, you try to divert from main the main point.
You support Jews and their “Right of Return”, you admitting you are a human, so what about Palestinians and their “Right of Return” to their land and homes?
JES, let demonstrate as human, show us how that fit in your word you said: “ be very difficult to get some people here to admit they are human.
“I also think that haredim and religious settlers should practice family planning.”
Yes, you think that poor religious Jewish people, the majority of them Middle Eastern in origin, should also control their breeding. That makes you a snob and a bigot. But your comments about Palestinians breeding too much is aimed at Palestinians as a whole, so can fairly be characterised as racist.
I have nothing against Europeans which is why I live in Europe. I would not however move to another continent and then complain about people not behaving like Europeans.
And Ric, if you find JES’s habitual tone of frat boy flippancy a “positive” contribution to debate, all I can say is good luck.
Salah, the Jewish “Right of Return” is not to the exact homes from which they left! That’s what I meant.
If the 100,000 or so Iraqi Jews who fled, together with all their children and grandchildren, wanted to demand a “Right of Return” to Iraq to the exact locations from which they fled, would you support that?
Yes, you think that poor religious Jewish people, the majority of them Middle Eastern in origin, should also control their breeding.
Just shows how much you know. The vast majority of the poor, haredis are Ashkenazi chasidim! They are not of “Middle Eastern origin”. I am, quite frankly, unaware of the “origin” of religious settlers, however based on the names that I most often hear associated with the settler movement, I’d say they are also Ashkenazim.
Bernard, I think that you have a lot of nerve to make assumptions about me without even knowing me. I also take umbrage at your misrepresentation of my statements here. (I did not say the Palestinians should not “breed”, nor did I refere to Palestinians as a “whole”. I am more than certain that a great many Palestinians do practice birth control so that they can pull themselves out of poverty.)
I have nothing against Europeans which is why I live in Europe. I would not however move to another continent and then complain about people not behaving like Europeans.
Good for you Bernard. You just support family planning in your own continent, I suppose? Well, imo, that makes you a hypocrit!
Wow, Helena has been steadily declining for some time now, but for her to come out and OPPOSE any attempts to jump start normalization of relations with Israel marks yet another new low.
I have to say I have the utmost respect for JES. He has tried to conduct a civil discussion among some of the most hateful commenters I have seen on any Mideast discussion site, all egged on by a frighteningly hypocritical host, who bleats about “courtesy” and then allows the insults to fly, as long as the poster hates Israel as much as she does.
Watching Helena’s latest tirades, I recall the immortal words of Joseph Nye Welch. “You’ve done enough. Have you no sense of decency, [madam], at long last? Have you left no sense of decency?”
“The vast majority of the poor, haredis are Ashkenazi chasidim! They are not of “Middle Eastern origin”.”
At the level of political representation Shas is by far the dominant haredi body and this was my point, that much of the anti-Shas rhetoric, including a focus on its followers having too many children, is racist in tone and implication.
“I did not say the Palestinians should not “breed”, nor did I refere to Palestinians as a “whole”.”
“perhaps the Palestinians might consider family planning and birth control” seems fairly clear to me to be a reference to Palestinians as a whole.
“You just support family planning in your own continent, I suppose? ”
No, I am a Catholic. I recognise however that people have the right to practice birth control and would be extremely dubious of any European politician who expressed the view that the breeding of certain ethnic minorities should be controlled.
Bernard, although Shas is a more dominant party than the Ashkenazi haredim parties, that’s because Shas has, for a long time, expanded its electoral base beyond Sephardic haredim. Many non-haredim Sephardi find Shas an attractive party for various reasons. I’m not sure of the exact numbers of Ashkenazi and Sephardic Haredim, but the number of seats in the Knesset is not a good indicator of total population.
In any event, your accusations of racism toward JES were absolutely uncalled for. You should apologize, even though Helena has created an exception to the courtesy rules for anyone who dares speak in support of Israel.
You’re grasping at straws about something you don’t really know much about, Bernard. Again, I never even alluded to the concept of “breeding” that assert that I had in mind. And yes, Shas may be the largest religious electoral bloc, but their voters are by no means all “haredim”, nor do they all have large families. However, right behind them is the United Torah Judaism party, which is made up almost entirely of Ashkenazi haredi Jews. And then there are the Ashkenazi haredis, such as the Neturai Karta, who don’t vote because they don’t recognize the legitimacy of the state. (And, BTW, I oppose Shas because they are (a) corrupt (b) have a history of opposing progress in peace, and (c) because their spiritual leader has publicly made racist statements against Arabs.)
Joshua, yes I am aware that the haredi population as a whole is mostly Ashkenazi but the irrational hostility shown towards Shas concentrates elements of anti-haredi and anti-misrahi bigotry in a revealing manner. In any case, ashkenazi or otherwise, I find it distasteful when anybody proclaims that any sector of the population is breeding too much. Actually the haredi population is growing quite rapidly in Europe – I wonder what you would make of a European politician who proclaimed that too many ultra-orthodox Jews were being born, but claimed there was nothing racist about their comments?
Joshua, thank you for the compliment. I have done a lot of thinking about it, and I am convinced that our host is truly certain that she is being fair in her responses and in her actions. She doesn’t see them as petty or one-sided, just as she doesn’t recognize her own fawning over Hamas and Hizballah’s “Sheikh Said Nasrallah” while heaping vitriol on Israel’s “rulers”. She sees them as “just”, as in her ideal of a “Just World”.
At the risk of a lecture by “Earth Mother”, perhaps the Palestinians might consider family planning and birth control rather than using “the Palestinian woman’s womb as a weapon” – sheesh, even Abu Amr only had one child!
For the last time, where did I say anything about “breeding” here???
One can’t advocate 8+ children per family and then complain about poverty and shortage of resources – that was my point.
And, BTW Bernard, getting back to the subject of our engagement here, how’s it going with the World Bank report?
“For the last time, where did I say anything about “breeding” here???”
What on earth do you think family planning and birth control are intended to prevent?
“One can’t advocate 8+ children per family and then complain about poverty and shortage of resources ”
Of course you can – the problem is an unfair allocation of resources, not the existence of too many people.
“getting back to the subject of our engagement here, how’s it going with the World Bank report”
It wasn’t the subject of my engagement, I don’t know anything about it.
Bernard,
Some hostility toward Shas may be prejudiced in nature. I don’t doubt that.
Still, there are plenty of other reasons people can’t stand Shas. There is Rabbi Yosef’s penchant for offensive and racist comments of his own. There is perceived malleability of its principles in exchange for more funding for Shas’s programs. There is the conviction of its former parliamentary leader on bribery charges. And there is the fact that many secular, masorti, and even modern Orthodox Israelis do not appreciate Shas using its political muscle to intrude on their personal lives. The Ashkenazi ultra-orthodox parties are not completely innocent in these matters, but they are nowhere near as prominent and brazen as Shas.
Having said that, I recognize that Shas has played an important role in supporting social welfare and in highlighting the Sephardic/Ashkenazi divide. Rabbi Yosef also was a key force in having Ethiopian Jews recognized as Jews. And although he has not always adopted a peace platform, his ruling that the State of Israel could in fact give up land for peace in accordance with halacha is absolutely crucial to get sufficient religious backing behind any peace deal should one be reached.
Shas has shown that they can pretty much guarantee 10-12 seats in the Knesset no matter what the political trends may be. It does remain to be seen what will happen after Rabbi Yosef leaves the scene, but it’s not really polite to think in such morbid terms.
Oh yea Bernard:
Bernard: “‘there are many credible sources, many of which are not as heavily politicized as b’tselem’ Really? Could you let us know what they are? The Israeli government perhaps?”
JES: Bernard,
I’ll settle for the original World Bank report, which you can find here:
http://siteresources.worldbank.org/INTWESTBANKGAZA/Resources/WaterRestrictionsReport18Apr2009.pdf
Does that ring a bell, Bernard?
What on earth do you think family planning and birth control are intended to prevent?
Unwanted children. (Perhaps “breeding” has another meaning in French or whatever language you speak.)
Of course you can – the problem is an unfair allocation of resources, not the existence of too many people.
Of course it is. Did you ever hear of Malthus? The fact is that there are limited water resources in the West Bank, and the answer is not to make the area Judenrein. At the current rate for population growth among the Palestinians (I believe that it is well above 3% per year) both the land and water resources will simply give out.
Large families were a necessity up until the last century, because the chances of a child surviving to maturity were so slim. Today they are not.
Just one example of unfair allocation of resources brought about by having a large number of children are the land inheritance practices of the Palestinians. In the past, they have married within the extended family – the ideal marriage being a man with his father’s brother’s daughter. This practice has been developed over the generations to ensure that the family land holdings stay together, and it worked up until the 20th century. Today, however, the land is increasingly fragmented into parcels – so fragmented, in fact, that it is impractical (if not impossible) for a large number of sons to marry and work their small parcels.
JES, if you’re sincerely worried about the water/resource crunch in Israel/Palestine you and the many thousands of other US-origined Jewish people who made aliyah over the past five decades could move back where you came from. The US has plenty of resources and is much safer for Jewish people than Palestine/Israel.
You made a choice to move there and use up disproportionate amounts of water and other natural resources that the Palestinian indigenes need. (Disproportionate, since the water useage by Jewish Israelis is so much heavier per capita than by OPT Palestinians… who, btw, are absolutely NOT free to drill for their own land’s water, as you have erroneously claimed.)
In the circumstances, your cavilling and preaching to Palestinians about their family size is quite outrageous.
Also, please note you’ve used up a disproportionate amount of the space on this comments board.
If you want to get your voice out as expansively as you seem to want, start your own blog. I’ll even give you one link to it here. The blogosphere is yours to join!
Ooooooo! Actually, my parents came on aliya nearly seven decades ago, but it’s very kind of you to be concerned. (BTW, as a “Jewish person”, I don’t feel particularly unsafe here.) So, I don’t find my “cavilling and preaching” to Palestinians about their family size any more outrageous that you “cavilling and preaching” to me about my choice to move here.
Do you think that making this blog Judenrein will free you from unwelcome criticism? Here’s a suggestion. I’ve noticed over at Mondoweiss that Phil and Adam, while posting lots (of, in my opinion, dubious value), never respond in the comments section – even when the comments are directed at them.
…are absolutely NOT free to drill for their own land’s water, as you have erroneously claimed….
Just where did I make such a claim, erroneous or otherwise?
Goodbye now, and God bless.
JES. I thought I was clear?
JES, you never come forward answering what questions paused to you. you keep running in a circle and keep diverts the point that very clear in my post.
As human JES tell us honest and clear what your replay to what I said .
read curfully what I wrot and come back with answers not more qestion.
You get to be real man here.
Salah: You support Jews and their “Right of Return”, you admitting you are a human, so what about Palestinians and their “Right of Return” to their land and homes?
JES: Salah, the Jewish “Right of Return” is not to the exact homes from which they left! That’s what I meant.
Is that clear, Salah?
Now, perhaps you wouldn’t mind answering my question:
If the 100,000 or so Iraqi Jews who fled, together with all their children and grandchildren, wanted to demand a “Right of Return” to Iraq to the exact locations from which they fled, would you support that?
Come on Salah. Be a man!
Jes comment below illustrates the problem
Do you think that making this blog Judenrein will free you from unwelcome criticism?
He is a prisoner of his people’s history. While it might be a major even in his country’s history it is seventy years years ago.
This helps them rationalise their apalling conduct today.
Nobody talks about Judenrein any more.
We talk about the real and current misery of Gaza and the iniquitous distribution of water in the West Bank.
Frank me lad, first of all I was chiding Helena for her use of the terms “Anschluss” (instead of “annexation”) and “Israel uber Alles” instead of …. well you can imagine. These are terms that are designed, plain and simple, to be hurtful. And yes, her threats (whether she knows so or not) are only directed to one side of the argument: Those who criticize her.
Secondly, you’re right: It has been 70 years. However, it has gone on for over 2,000 years. Now, I hope you all have gotten over it, but I just don’t think that I can trust either you or Helena to do a better job than your parents did 70 years ago!
Salah, the Jewish “Right of Return” is not to the exact homes from which they left! That’s what I meant.
Is this a jock here or some thing through to play game?
You pushed people from their homes, their land Israelis destroyed farmland, Israeili occupied land of Palestinian.
Then you built settlement and walls God knows what you did on their land, so their “Right of Return” gone as their land gone, isn’t JES.
As for Zionist the “Right of Return” is the promised land so where that land and what boradrs will be as you believer human?
And your answer please:
What makes their dream different from YOUR dream of “Promised Land” JES?
What makes your 2000 years old dream acceptable than those “human” who lived also thousands year on that land.
Is the time to leave 2000 years old dreams mantra and live like a human together JES?
Babylonian also have dreams older than yours 5000 years old will they come and got you again?
Salah, I answered your question. Now you answer mine:
If the 100,000 or so Iraqi Jews who fled, together with all their children and grandchildren, wanted to demand a “Right of Return” to Iraq to the exact locations from which they fled, would you support that?
But of course, their homes and land are also “destroyed”, because other people are living there. Perhaps you and your family are living there, Salah? Would it be acceptible for Jews (who had lived in Iraq longer than many Arabs) to come back to their homes and land and collect the other property that they left behind when they were stripped of their citizenship and nationality?
JES do you agree the Jewish sate should par compensations for Iraqis of the cost and all the damages for their nuclear Centre in Baghdad 1980?
Do agree the Jewish sate should pay compensations to the families together with all their children and grandchildren for those dozen Iraqi Scientist killed by Jewish state for no reason just because there are smart and working in their field of science?
Do agree the Jewish sate should pay Iraqis for the cost for the Jewish state acts by destroying a complete brand new nuclear reactor with all consequences of damages that caused of loosing it just shipped from franc late 80’s?
Before demanding any rights from others either Iraq or Iraqis or Arabs for your old 2000 years dream which you believing with your denial for the others dreams, shouldn’t you first give them their rights, “ to go back to their homes and land and collect the other property that they left behind when they were stripped from them due to invasion and occupation of their country… then you can argue for your rights that 2000 years old, … isn’t JES?
You did answer one question with funny explanation.
JES, we still waiting your answers for the list go back and check and list your answers pleas.
For the last time Salah:
If the 100,000 or so Iraqi Jews who fled, together with all their children and grandchildren, wanted to demand a “Right of Return” to Iraq to the exact locations from which they fled, would you support that?
Or is your reluctance to answer because you or your family are living in one of those homes?
Or is your reluctance to answer because you or your family are living in one of those homes?
Go and asked your Iraqi Jew from Hilla/ Massyab town, they knew my father well while he had many many Jws friends JES at that time, they cried leaving him as very close friend and neighbour JES, he had his own house he lived in not Iraqi Jews owned JES.
Yes Salah. And what happened to all of those Jews property? Is it still waiting, empty and unused, for them to come back?
Yes Salah. And what happened to all of those Jews property? Is it still waiting, empty and unused, for them to come back?
Yes JES. And what happened to all of those Palestinians property? Is it still waiting, empty and unused, for them to come back?
Finally! You got my point!
Goodbye now!
Jes
What on earth are you talking about?
I can trust either you or Helena to do a better job than your parents did 70 years ago!
My father was a corporal in the LDF in North Dublin and distinctly remembered the night the Luftwaffe got lost and bombed Dublin under the mistaken impression thta they had found liverpool.
My mother used to tell us about her family sheltering under the stairs as their house collapsed on them in Belfast the night the Luftwaffe came calling.
Her stories helped me empathise with the helpless civilians being bombed and shelled in Gaza at Christmas.
Lets blame the diaspora on Herod and Hadrian and leave it that.
I think Helena and I will do just fine supporting the miserable, the downtrodden, and the ones without a voice.
But leave my parents out of it. Capisch!!!
What am I talking about? You “progressives” think that the Holocaust was simply a one-time episode in the two-thousand year history of the diaspora. It wasn’t, and, frankly, if I have to rely on you to watch my back, I’ll pass until you can prove that you’ll do a better job of it than your parents’ generation did protecting my parents’ generation 70 years ago.
Capice?
Jes
You are entitled to your opinion.
I don’t have to prove anything to you.
If you want a useful learning exercise from history try reading about the Penal Laws in Ireland and compare them with the situation of the Palestinians.
Open your mind. (and check your second passport to make sure we will still take you in when it all falls apart)
Ma Salama
Frank
Hey Frank, thinking about how you’ve affected the attachment of “al-Irlandi” to your name, it occurred to me: How many Arabs with the name “al-Falastini” have you met? I know I have met a one.
JES, you have abused my hospitality on the blog so many times by violating the discourse-hogging guideline and numerous other guidelines including courtesy, constructiveness.
You have used the comments broads on JWN as your personal tribune, trying to ‘answer’ everyone and to dominate the discourse here.
I’ve pointed this out to you many times and you have responded only by continuing to behave the same.
I’ve invited you to go start your own blog as an alternative to seeking to dominate the discourse here. That path is still open to you.
I therefore feel free to delete as many of your incoming comments as I please or to ban you from the blog completely.
The rest of the blogosphere is open to you– just in case there’s a huge readership out there waiting to hang on your every word, which I suppose is a possibility. You do not need to be parasitic on my venture here.