I was finally able to get to the movie Waltz with Bashir last night. I was blown away. I thought it was tremendous…. very moving indeed.
I know some people have complained that it doesn’t “tell the Palestinian side” of what happened in the Sabra and Shatila refugee camps during those two horrendous days in September 1982, or that it “doesn’t give enough of the political context” of the 1982 war. I’ve heard other criticisms of it, too.
It’s true, it doesn’t do either of those things… because, I think, it never intended to. It is not really, in any central way, about the hundreds of Palestinian women, men, and children who were massacred in the refugee camps that day, or about the war in which that Israeli-orchestrated atrocity was committed.
What it is about, it seems to me, is much more memory, in general, and in particular the struggle of one man– Israeli film-maker Ari Folman– to try to recover and put into some kind of context the memories of the role that he and the other members of the IDF unit in which he served had played in facilitating the massacres.
I found it to be a profoundly antiwar movie, primarily in the way it showed that involvement in anti-humane violence– even involvement in violence in the role of a back-up perpetrator or facilitator of it— has a powerful capacity to wound and damage the human soul.
Look, of course it would be great if some of the Palestinian survivors of the massacres in the camps had the leisure, and the financing, and the skills, and the general backing that would be required for them to make their own films about their experiences during those days, and since.
Some day soon I certainly hope that can happen.
But in the meantime, many Israeli film-makers do have all those skills and resources; so I think it’s great that Folman chose to use the many resources at his command to record this interesting quest he made into his own self-knowledge and the self-knowledge– I would hope!– of Israeli society as a whole about the nature of that war, and about the nature of Israel’s wars in general.
As someone wrote recently: Maybe in another 25 years a sensitive Israeli film-maker will make a movie about what the IDF did recently in Gaza, and call it something like “Waltz with Ahmed.”
(Except that, a key difference: they don’t have a Bashir Gemayyel-like collaborating figure with whom they could have worked in Gaza. I guess Dahlan was auditioning for that job at one point, but then he wimped out. Thank G-d.)
Of course the movie is disturbing– because technically, it is so very, very well done.
I knew Bashir Gemayyel quite well. I used often to go to interview him in the Falangist headquarters when I was working in Beirut in the late 1970s and through 1981. I saw his meteoric rise within the party, propelled by his obsession with violence, and in particular by the exquisitely sadistic way in which he and his people used violence against the Palestinians in Tel Al-Zaatar in 1976.
I think the movie captures him and the zeitgeist of his murderous followers very well.
I also knew several young women in Shatila camp, since for a while in 1974-75 I used to go and teach English to them once a week, in one of their homes there. In November 2004 I was able to make a return trip to the camp, which you can read about here: part 1, part 2.
I found a number of aspects of the movie fascinating. On occasion, the sound-track was some heavy-metallish music in Hebrew, with many of the lyrics translated in the subtitles… Many of those were extremely militaristic and/or nihilistic. I’m assuming they were ‘genuine’, period rock songs from the era, or soon after? Can anyone tell me anything about them– or about the general phenomenon of Israeli rock music having some pretty heavily belligerent lyrics?
The comrade-in-arms who’d ended up in the Nethlerlands was interesting. Was I the only one to assume he’d made his fortune not with “a felafel stand,” as he said, but perhaps through some form of drug-smuggling?
Just the idea that a person can get on a plane in Israel and visit an old friend in the Netherlands would be a pretty mind-blowing proposition for most of the people living today in Sabra and Shatila, since they have no citizenship and are still prohibited under Lebanese law from engaging in most of the livelihoods that are open to Lebanese citizens.
Oh, look at the vast disparity in the current circumstances of those two groups of people, the Israeli facilitators of the massacres, and the Palestinian survivors…
Interesting to think that maybe a fairly large proportion of the Israeli men in that age-range– today, around 45-55 years old– are walking around with those kinds of memories, whether suppressed or not, and with some of those same kinds of misgivings and/or stirrings of conscience??
And then, the sea, the sea, the sea. It is a constant (and perhaps psycho-analytically important) presence in the film. But I have been on that rainswept seafront in Tel Aviv with which the film opens– and I’ve also spent a lot of time on the seafront in Beirut. One day soon, I hope, people could travel in peace right along that shoreline, from one country to the other (and also to Syria, Gaza, and Egypt.)
But not, obviously, in tanks and warplanes.
46 thoughts on “Waltz with Bashir: See it!”
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Thanks for your take Helena. Where/how did you see it? Playing again? DVD? rental? suggestions?
Vinegar Hill movie house
“Look, of course it would be great if some of the Palestinian survivors of the massacres in the camps had the leisure, and the financing, and the skills, and the general backing that would be required for them to make their own films about their experiences during those days, and since.”
It could also be great if the Lebanese Arabs who actually perpetrated this massacre also made a film reflecting on their experiences? Wouldn’t it?
Or is Arab on Arab violence regarded as so culturally entrenched as to be irreversible?
Personally I don’t think so, but this glaring omission of yours, Helena, could be seen as racist?
Waltz with Bashir is a brilliant film.
Waltz with Bashir was produced with European money. As Folman acknowledges in an interview with the publication France-Amérique, the film’s “most important source of financing” and “principal sponsor” was the Franco-German “cultural” channel ARTE.
“it doesn’t “tell the Palestinian side”
The movie does not tell about the daily terror attacks by the PLO,the the hijacking of school buses, and the assassination attempt against Israel’s ambassador to the United Kingdom, Shlomo Argov, by the Palestinians.
Israel created a “security zone”, which Israel considered a necessary buffer against attacks on its northern territory.
For your information, bb, the Lebanese who actually did the massacre on Israel’s behalf were not Arabs, as they themselves would tell you.
Wow Shirin! What would they tell us? That they are Poenicians? But then there are those among the Palestinians who claim to be Canaanites, so I guess that the Sabra/Shatila massacre (as well as Damour which preceded it) were Phoenicians against Canaanites?
Hmmn lets see:
From http://countrystudies.us/lebanon/85.htm
The Phalange Party motto is “God, the Fatherland, and the Family,” and its doctrine emphasizes a free economy and private initiative. Phalangist ideology focuses on the primacy of preserving the Lebanese nation, but with a “Phoenician” identity, distinct from its Arab, Muslim neighbors.”
Shirin was right of course. You often mock people who are right JES, especially when you know them to be. Then, to further discount your opponents arguments for casual readers, your preference appears to be to leap for high farce seasoned in appalling taste.
Gawd Roland, why don’t you go back and friggin’ read what I actually wrote in response to Shirin!
Sure the Phalangists claim to be Phoenicians – even I knew that. That’s why I pointed it out. I also know that there are those among the Palestinians who claim Canaanite descent.
And just FYI, I doubt that Shirin is an Arab.
JES, there is such a thing– you probably knew this once, but may have forgotten it?– as human solidarity. That is, a very natural tendency most humans have to empathize with other humans who are suffering regardless of race, religion, or ethnicity. From that point of view, it does not matter whether Shirin or anyone else “is” an Arab. What is significant is whether she or anyone else ever expresses solidarity and empathy with people who are suffering…. as the people of Sabra and Shatila most assuredly did, in a manner unimagineable by most people.
Israe’s own Kahan Commission report detailed the extent to which Sharon and the IDF bore responsibility for the massacres (though by most acounts it seriously underplayed the numbers of casualties.) I think the facts about the IDF and Sharon’s involvement was very adequately portrayed in the film, including through the interview with Ron Ben-Yishai and that remarkable scene near the end when the IDF officer on the ground uses a bullhorn to tell the Phalangists in English to “Stop all the fighting” and they immediately obey him.
He could have done that at any point throughout the preceding 48 hours– or better yet, never have participated in planning for the massacre to start.
I don’t for a moment exculpate the Phalangists (as I think i indicated in my main post.) But the glee with which some Israeli and pro-Israeli commenters here refer to “Arab-on-Arab violence” is quite revolting and sick. It’s reminiscent, most of all, of the glee with which South Africa’s apartheid rulers used to refer to the extremely lethal fighting between Inkatha and the ANC– fighting that they had of course stoked and enabled through the extensive military and funding help they gave to Inkatha. And then they sat back in their gated communities and watched the fighting that ensued in the townships and rubbed their hands with glee and said, “Oh look at those primitive people fighting and killing each other. Doesn’t that just prove how inhumane they are and why we can never deal with them as equals!”
Human solidarity… try indulging in it sometime. It’s a wonderful principle, and one that is absolutely necessary for the survival of all the world’s peoples.
JES, a classic case of the jewish perjurer. He questions Shirin’s Arab descent but we are to take at face value his deep and eternal connection to Palestine. Oh I forget: God promised this land to him. Check it out. It is written in a book.
I saw “Waltz with Bashir” in Asheville a few weeks ago. Helena’s made the clearest statement of the movie’s theme that I’ve heard: It’s about how the massacre had a personal effect on specific soldiers. Folman and the others can’t tell the whole geopolitical picture, which would’ve detailed out the responsibilities of the IDF and the Phalange behind the massacre, and the massacre’s effect on the regional politic’s evolution. They can only tell you how the massacre affected their human experiences.
Aestetics – The gritty artistic style and washed out color scheme matched the war story setting. Unfortunately the animation was mechanical. Everyone moved like audioanimatronics. If anyone was wondering why “Waltz” did not get a Best Animated Feature nomimation, it was probably for this reason. I’m glad it got its Best Foreign film nomination at least, though.
The movie doesn’t focus on the massacre until it’s final third. Some people might lose patience with the movie then. The first two thirds consist of soldiers’ war stories. Compelling because their true, but nothing unique about their stories.
Every Israeli soldier in the movie expresses dismay and disgust in the Phalangists’ slaughter. The movie has only one scene of a reporter talking to Sharon on the phone with Sharon giving the impression that he’s willing to let the massacre happen. That’s all the movie has in terms of implicating the IDF in the massacre, and some might find that unsatisfactory.
But the movie is worth watching for the last scene, which reveals what Ari Folman truly witnessed. After the whole film had been presented as stylized art, the last scene is, simply, reality….
BTW: Helena, do you have a good background source on Bashir Gemayal. In the West Bashir is seen as a Sadat-like hero who was about to bring peace between Israel and Lebanon, only to be cut down by an assassin, like Kennedy or MLK. I must confess that your description of Bashir as obsessed with violence and sadistic is the first time I’ve ever heard Bashir described this way. It’s a very different picture from the hero image seen in the West.
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BTW: I do feel that Muezzin’s explicitly anti-Semitic flame posts should be immediately deleted, so that they don’t become a tangent that wastes the time of the people posting on the board.
Inkan, re Bashir Gemayyel’s reputation in the west, I would say that just about all of the MSM reporters who were covering his rise within the Falange in the 1970s saw him more or less as I did, and my friend Jon Randal, then with the WaPo, wrote a tremendous book about Gemayyel’s brand of violence. It’s called “Going all the way.”
But of course, the ideologically driven discourse-suppression campaigns have also been continuous in the general discourse in the west, on this issue as on so many others connected with Israel. I must admit I’m surprised by the way you describe Gemayyel’s general rep in the west as being a Sadat-like hero who was about to bring peace between Israel and Lebanon, only to be cut down by an assassin, like Kennedy or MLK. I don’t think I know anyone in the US apart from a few very hard-line pro-Israel ideologues who actually believe that. But I guess the ideologues have been generally successful in propagating their point of view.
Many other aspects of the whole affair bear remembering. Including that the Sabra and Shatila refugee camps had been denuded of the palestinian fighters who had previously defended them, expressly through the US-brokered ceasefire agreement that ended the 10-week war of 1982 and the IDF’s brutal 6-week campaign of West Beirut in which the war culminated. So the remining families in Sabra & Shatila were completely defenseless sitting ducks for the Falangist avengers.
Also, under that ceasefire agreement the IDF was prohibited from ay further forward movement. In moving into West Beirut including the camps area, as it did right after Bashir’s assassination, they were completely violating the US-brokered ceasefire. So the massacres were a HUGE embarrassment and political setback for the US around the world. Of course footage of the aftermath was widely broadcast throughout the whole world.
And by the way in case people here didn’t realize this, Gemayyel was assassinated not by a Palestinian but by an anti-Falangist Christian Lebanese… and the original “casus belli” that was seized upon by Sharon in June 1982 as the reason to launch the war he had long planned in Lebanon was the (non-fatal) shooting of Shlomo Argov, Israel’s ambassador in London– by a strongly anti-PLO Palestinian fringe group.
But of course, mere political facts like these could not interrupt the belligerence of a man like Sharon who in 1982 was determined to find any opportunity he could to inflict severe collective punishment on all Palestinians…
My dearest Helena,
You chide me with your finger-wagging lecture that “there is such a thing– you probably knew this once, but may have forgotten it?– as human solidarity”. However, this is exactly the point that I was making. As humans, we have maybe a 6% genetic difference. That’s far less than with our closest primate relatives, and much less than within most species. In other words, it doesn’t really matter whether those who carried out the attacks were or were not Arabs, or Phoenicans or Swedes.
Nowhere did I even suggest that “Arab-on-Arab” violence was a source of glee. I expect an apology!
You are so deep in your “defencive crouch” that perhaps you don’t really see it, but in your “wish” that someday, some Palestinian filmaker who was a victim in Sabra/Shatila or in Gaza might make a film about it. However it completely skipped your mind (or, what’s more worrisome didn’t even occur to you) that perhaps a Palestinian perpetrator or facilitator of atrocities against Israelis might just make a film.
BTW, here’s a nice little piece from Ha’aretz:
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1074678.html
Dear Muezzin,
You’ve probably noticed that I have avoided responding to your posts. I did, however, want to counter Inkan’s suggestion that your posts should be deleted. I find them most entertaining – just like a pet monkey.
So, anyway, I’ll just go back to reading your posts, chuckling a bit and then ignoring you.
I agree with Inkan regarding “muezzin” (“interesting” choice of names here) and his/her constant spewing of odious, standard-issue anti-Semitic talking points. That has no place here, and only accelerates the deterioration of the discussion that began several weeks ago.
JES Cretin, if only one could write you off as a cute monkey performing tricks, but you’re as cute as a case of genital crabs.
Furthermore, you sound more like an old codger with a serious case of alzheimers. Or perhaps you are just an obsessive-compulsive troll stuck on repeat and permanently on the rag.
Anyway it is fun to see how easy it is to bait you before you start your histrionics. When you can’t debate anymore you resort to repeating the same recycled crap ad infinitum and then trying awfully hard to be witty but not quite succeeding.
You have no credibility and deserve no respect so I will just poke you periodically to get you foaming at the mouth.
Great PR job you are doing for Israel.hahahah. Keep it up douche bag.
Um, JES, I never suggested you had said anything about “Arab on Arab violence”, and guess what, you hadn’t.
(Defensive crouch, anyone?)
So JES, you can climb off your high horse of screeching your demand for an apology in very ugly screechy bold, and we can all return to having a decent conversation here?
Incidentally I’d love to learn from you if you were in Israel in 1982; whether you served in the army during that war (or in Lebanon, later on during the lengthy occupation and counter-insurgency), and if so what your experiences were… Did they track in any way with what was portrayed in the film?
What is your view of the film? I’d love to have you write about that here.
Fwit, I for one would very much appreciate it if you could keep those anatomical and sexist references out of your comments. It should be possible to say what you want to say without them.
I do feel that Muezzin’s explicitly anti-Semitic flame posts should be immediately deleted, so that they don’t become a tangent that wastes the time of the people posting on the board.
Inkan1969,
You should then really suggesting the same for N. F, commenting here with full hateful and ugly smears of Islam and Muslims here in this board.
Anti-Semitic, it’s a verse to shut up people sadly those who climes they have a great believe in freedom of speech and human rights those same people they attacking Islam and Muslims those the new Nazi & Fascists but in our time.
Absolutely agree with Shirin on the nature of TF’s contribution here. These kind of anatomical and sexist references make any forum a very hostile place for women to try to participate in with equality & respect. They add nothing to the argument you’re trying to make; indeed, they detract from it.
And (gasp!) they contravene the guidelines. please go read them and try to keep JWN a safe place for all good-faith participants in the discussion.
I agree with Salah. There has been some very ugly anti-Islam and anti-Arab nonsense posted here in the past several weeks that should be challenged as strongly as the anti-Semitic nonsense “muezzin” has been posting. None of it advances the discussion.
There *has* been a film in which the Phalangists speak about Sabra and Shatil. It is called Massaker and it only proves the Israeli complicity.
As for Waltz with Bashir, my primary problem with it is not that it doesn’t include the Palestinians (although that is huge). My problem is that it is yet another example of “shooting and crying”. Oh yes, the Israeli military kills with impunity and its soliders have the soul and morality to regret it later. Please!
Exactly, Laleh! How much do we have to hear about the “humanizing anguish” of Israeli soldiers over the horrific death and destruction they have dealt out day after day, year after year, decade after decade?
They shoot, they cry, then they go back and shoot some more, then they cry some more, then they shoot yet more…….and so on and on and on. And we are supposed to feel sorry for their pain. It really is the ultimate narcissism, is it not? It is not different from Golda Meir’s blatantly narcissistic statement about not being able to forgive the Arabs for forcing Israelis to kill their (the Arabs’) children – simply beyond belief!
Let those soldiers stop shooting first, try to make amends to their victims, and then maybe we can be asked to feel something for them. Until then, if they must cry, let them do so in private.
“As for Waltz with Bashir, my primary problem with it is not that it doesn’t include the Palestinians (although that is huge). My problem is that it is yet another example of “shooting and crying”. ”
Exactly, Laleh! They should rejoice in their blood-soaked hands or blame someone else as the Phalangists did. That’ll get us everywhere.
The Truth and Reconciliation Commission in South Africa took the black on black violence head on, and the participants movingly took reponsibility for their actions.
But I agree, Helena is at her least effective when she becomes sanctimonious.
I had mixed feelings about the movie, but in the end, I’d give it a thumbs up. It’s true there’s an element of shooting and crying in it, but AFAIK it’s an honest depiction of how some young Israeli soldiers experienced the war and so it’s valuable for that reason.
What’s bad about “shooting and crying” is not that some Israeli soldiers are troubled by what they’ve seen or done–I am glad some of them later feel guilty. What’s bad is when people use this reaction in a twisted way, to argue that this all shows Israel’s nobility and we end up with Israel’s crimes somehow demonstrating Israel’s virtues. To the extent that people might use “Waltzing with Bashir” that way, it’s bad, but it’s not the fault of the moviemakers unless they make that argument themselves.
I’ve heard people defend Israel on the grounds that it produces B’Tselem, as though the existence of a human rights group (which is to Israel’s credit) somehow cancels out Israel’s guilt for the tcrimes that B’Tselem documents. It’s not the fault of B’Tselem that people use its existence in this perverse way.
On the ‘shooting & crying’ question regarding the movie, Donald spoke (wrote) my mind.
I dealt with the ‘shooting & crying’ issue a bit recently, in point 5 of this post.
Wrong Helena. I wasn’t demanding an apology for your claim that I was suggesting “Arab-on-Arab” violence is okay. I was demanding an apology for your suggestion that there was anything in my remarks that suggests that I am against, what you call, “human solidarity”.
The Spiders of Allah Strike Again
The Awful Anti-Semitism of The Washington Post’s Pat Oliphant.
Wonder those who defended the anti Islamic religion and Prophet Mohammad, now they calling an Awful Cartoon and behavior with Anti-Semitism tag!!
Btw,
Check the smears and biased Google….
If you goggle “Oliphant cartoon” all the images were taken off from Google search, but if you Google Prophet Mohammad Cartoons you will find full images,…
Any doubt Google have biased view/bhavours ?
Wonder those who defended the anti Islamic religion and Prophet Mohammad, now they calling an Awful Cartoon and behavior with Anti-Semitism tag!!
Calling a cartoon something is freedom of expression. Burning embassies and threatening people with death is something else entirely. I guess, Salah, you can’t appreciate the difference.
JES, your 11:35 pm… The only nice thing about you using bold is that it makes it very easy to scroll quickly back up and see what it was you were demanding an apology for some eleven hours earlier.
Which was: Nowhere did I even suggest that “Arab-on-Arab” violence was a source of glee. I expect an apology!
… Now, please stop wasting our time with these silly diversions. And if you have something to share with us about your own experience of post-combat remorse or any other post-combat feelings, based on any experience you’ve had in the IDF (or heck, other militaries too), as I said I’d love to hear it. I would even waive the length limit for such a comment.
I think I’ll not waste my time and defer my response to your question as you have yet to show any indication that you have even troubled yourself to look at my earlier response to your previous question in the thread on Daraghmeh, which I posted at March 29, 2009 01:31 AM.
Exactly, Laleh! They should rejoice in their blood-soaked hands or blame someone else as the Phalangists did. That’ll get us everywhere.
The Truth and Reconciliation Commission in South Africa took the black on black violence head on, and the participants movingly took reponsibility for their actions.
I believe that bb has hit upon the heart of the issue. As Abdallah Laroui put forward in 1974 in The Crisis of the Arab Intellectual, the Arabs have found it difficult, because of their particular form of historiography, to take responsibility for anything – and particularly for having lost their empire and for failing to adapt to the modern world.
At least Israel had the Kahan and Or Commissions and films such as “Waltz with Bashir”. But cite one case where the Palestinians have taken responsibility for anything. And without both sides taking responsibility, because one side sees itself as above responsibility, reconciliation is not possible.
I pick your attention here to the type and mindset with the behaviour of Israelis who for 60 years telling the westerns that they are Peace Loving People who are surrounded by enemies who love to kill them and throw them to the sea,
These same people the Arab trying to get honest long lasting peaceful deals, as I mentioned before these group of Israelis / Zionists clearly showing the type of people who trying to buy a peace with them after 1967 till now with no progress and hope.
Back to JES, normally I don’t waste my time with; normally you’re very killed in twisting/ manipulating the words and sentences just like your ilk N. F…
If you read my comment well MY POINT was people like presumably you & your ilk rushed and spoken loudly in support Mohammad’s Cartoon as a peace of freedom of speech, used for insulting Islam and Muslims without doubt about .
Many …..many RESPONSIBEL Muslims/ leads and official made claims and objections about it, but what was said and what action taken specially was dishonest, biased and fake reflecting their hatred toward Muslims and its part of fascist/ Nazi style propaganda against Islam.
So you brought “Burning embassies and threatening people with death is something else entirely. Burning embassies and threatening people with death” this far from the discussion and irrelevant here.
Although I don’t support and rejecting any acts like these , now a single Cartoon touch Star of David, it’s an awful acts and Images blocked and all of this sort of action and more importantly tagged as anti-Semitisms act!!!
JES, Our Koran telling very well of بنوا اسرائيل” “.That why the Koran hated and attacked by them because it revelled the history before 1400 years what this sort of people behaving and acting there are no difference between your ilk 1400 ago and now just time different this very clear truth if the westerns read the Koran they will found without difficulties this is what happen in Palestine and all the propaganda surrounding, and your behaviour well demonstrated in Koran.
Finally, JES come forward and telling and answering Helena request for you and throw your words out , and don’t stick them in you mouth discussing far from real main point of discussion tell us its very clear ask by Helena you don’t need to go further.
“At least Israel had the Kahan and Or Commissions and films such as “Waltz with Bashir”. But cite one case where the Palestinians have taken responsibility for anything”
That’s an example of the misuse of the film that I was talking about. JES seems to think there are just two sides here–Israelis who take responsibility for their crimes and Palestinians who are immature children. My impression is quite different–there seem to be some Israelis who take responsibility for their government’s crimes and do the best they can to reach a just solution, and other Israelis who erect roadblocks to peace and then point to the existence of the first group as indications of their own virtue. And on the Palestinian side there are Palestinians who are critical of terrorism and anti-semitism in their own community. If we have to divide people into groups, there are people (Israelis and Palestinians) who want a just solution and others (Israelis and Palestinians) who do not. But even that is too simple, as there are plenty of people who favor justice in some circumstances and succumb to tribal feelings in others.
JES, Our Koran telling very well of بنوا اسرائيل” “.That why the Koran hated and attacked by them because it revelled the history before 1400 years what this sort of people behaving and acting there are no difference between your ilk 1400 ago and now just time different this very clear truth if the westerns read the Koran they will found without difficulties this is what happen in Palestine and all the propaganda surrounding, and your behaviour well demonstrated in Koran.
Right Salah. And that’s why you and “your ilk” yell “khaibar, khaibar al-yahud”. Don’t you think it’s about time that we leave the past 1400 years of history behind?
I support the right of Muezzin and Salah to post on this forum, because they represent the opinions of a large number of people, and thus need to be included in the discussion. I am disappointed by Helena’s lack of response to the rank anti-Semitism. Some would argue that failure to respond might be tacit agreement
Donald Johnson has illustrated my (or rather Laroui’s) point perfectly. The secular West, to which Israel belongs culturally, sees actions as having consequences for which the actors are responsible. Traditional Arab society does not, and this, as Laroui pointed out, is reflected among society’s leaders – the intellectuals – (hence the title). Writing in 1974, Laroui saw that the Palestinians (i.e. the leadership) were finally taking responsibility for their actions, and predicted that things would change. Unfortunately, he did not foresee the resurgence of religion dominating the society and politics in the region.
… there seem to be some Israelis who take responsibility for their government’s crimes and do the best they can to reach a just solution, and other Israelis who erect roadblocks to peace and then point to the existence of the first group as indications of their own virtue.
I have no doubts that there are individuals on both sides who are willing to take responsibility for their actions. Donald has, however, missed the point here. The Kahan and Or Commissions were both official, government sanctioned Commissions of Inquiry – not simply a collection of individuals. We don’t see anything even remotely resembling this on the Palestinian or Arab side.
I don’t expect groups like the ANC or Hamas or Fatah to look into the crimes of their own side until they have a peace agreement. We’ll see what happens then.
Anyway, for the most part the Israelis don’t take responsibility for their own crimes. Not that too many countries ever do, so that’s not unusual.
I don’t expect groups like the ANC or Hamas or Fatah to look into the crimes of their own side until they have a peace agreement.
There is a difference between “looking into crimes” and taking responsibility for actions. Hamas kidnapped Gilad Shalit and has held him in complete violation of all international laws, and then they whine about Israel closing the crossings (while Helena and their other other Western shills complain about the conditions under which Israel holds Hamas political prisoners, all of which are significantly beyond the minimum required of a party holding a POW). They fire missiles into southern Israel, and then yell foul when Israel invades with superior firepower.
In both cases, a responsible leadership should have weighed the alternatives and possible outcomes before taking actions likely to cause harm to their population. Hamas did neither. And they have yet to answer to their own people for their actions, and for the suffering brought on them (while the leadership were safely ensconced in their underground bunkers) due to these actions.
Frankly, I don’t find that much different that what you all have called here “fighting & crying” except maybe it should be “murdering & whining”.
Right Salah. And that’s why you and “your ilk” yell “khaibar, khaibar al-yahud”. Don’t you think it’s about time that we leave the past 1400 years of history behind?
You should turn around and tell this to yourself and to your ilk to leave their old dream of 2500 years isn’t JES?
When that happens then come telling others what to do……..otherwise you just shut up.
By they way Bano-Islarail those who are calling themselves Jew but they do not follow God orders its another one by JES here of mixing as usual and twisting here Koran clear JES and far to tell lies about it,
I think this is a terrific movie. The standard criticism–voiced from Al Jazzeera on down, is that it omits the “arab” point of view.
This does an injustice to the movie not to mention history. First the movie: The hallucinatory imagery, the cartoon technique ,the first person point of view and the avoidance of larger historic context all make the same point: this is a personal film foremost, rather than a political one. It’s no wonder Al Jazeera ignorede these obvious points, but one would expect more from a more interested and litterate audience.
As for the history: There were an “Israeli” response, the Kahane report, as well as mass demonstrations in Tel Aviv.
The ” arab” response was a hasty Lebanese report , which naturally blamed everything on the Israelis and left things at that. Two years later, the Shiite militia Amal laid siege to Sabrila and Chattila once again, and shelled it with tank fire for several weeks. The official death toll was close to 4000, but was in all likelyhood much higher. Parts of the camp were bulldozed afterwards and the head of Amal, Nabih Berri, subequently became Minister of Justice. Amal’s military fighters were eventually absorbed by Hezbollah. Elie Hobekha, one of the phalange commanders of the first massacre enjoyed a second carreer as a loyal syrian ally and continued, apparently without ill effects, his activities on the lebanese political scene.
Perhaps, sometime in the distant fututre, there will be a similar personal account, by an arab this time, that will go beyond the official posturing. Tellingly, while the movie did have a semi-illicit, but well attended screening in Beirut, it is officially banned in Lebanon.
As far as the songs go, I think “Levanon, Boker Tov” is by Nawadei HaOkef (“Good Morning, Lebanon” by Nomads of the Bypass), and roughly contemporaneous with the war, while Ze’ev Tene’s “Beirut” is more recent, a cover of Cake’s “I Bombed Korea Every Night” I’m surprised they didn’t include songs that were explicitly soldier’s songs, like “Airplane come down/and take us to the clouds/we’ll fight for Sharon/and come home in coffins.” The songs are rather grim, and each generation gets the songs of its own war. My own generation got “The Children of Winter ’73” during the Second Intifada. The songs follow to fill the lulls in the news broadcasts of terror attacks on the home front, and certain songs become juxtaposed with a sense of loss. Israeli culture still has a powerful oral tradition and comes with influences from cultures that themselves have powerful oral/poetic/mythopoetic traditions, like Bedouin, Talmudic, etc, and poetry like Alterman’s “The Silver Platter” is as powerful as Mahmoud Darwish’s “Sajil! Ana Arabi”–“Record! I am an Arab.”
There is also _Closed Zone_, the Gaza animation by one of WWB’s animators, all over youtube or at http://www.closedzone.com.