Jerusalem is a city that has many different meanings to many different people, in many different contexts. It is a home-town to some, a much-loved but now unattainable birthplace for others, an place of special religious value to others. It is a center of commerce, education, and professional services. It’s a city of breath-taking beauty and also one in which 30-foot-high concrete walls pierced by even higher watchtowers march plumb through residential neighborhoods, brutalizing everyone…
At the political level for nearly 41 years now it has been a city of far-reaching, deeply institutionalized discrimination against people who happen to be non-Jews of a sort that if it were practiced anywhere in the world against Jews would (rightly) be the cause of massive international opprobrium.
It is not a unified city, as anyone who lives there can attest to.
It is a city in which the war crimes of the construction and peopling of illegal settlements, and of destruction of the homes and infrastructure of the indigenous residents, have been continuously committed for nearly 41 years.
It is a city whose wellbeing and integrity is a matter of intense concern to just about all Arabs (Christian and Muslim), and to monotheistic believers around the world but especially perhaps to the world’s 1.2 billion Muslims and 14 million Jews.
It is also, intriguingly to me, a city whose 220,000 current Palestinian residents form a special kind of bridge between the concerns of the Palestinians of the other occupied Palestinian territories and those of the 1.2 million Palestinian citizens of Israel.
Jerusalem’s remaining Palestinian community has been under tremendous stress– since their city came under Israeli occupation in 1967, and even more so since Yasser Arafat’s conclusion of the Oslo Agreement in 1993. Before Oslo, and even throughout most of the First Intifada, the Jerusalem Palestinians could easily sustain their relationships with their compatriots (often close relatives) who happened to be residents of the rest of the West Bank, of Gaza, or of 1948 Israel. After 1993, the Rabin government started erecting a ring of steel between Palestinian East Jerusalem and the rest of the occupied West Bank. Jerusalemites could go out through the checkpoints– which were later supplanted by The Wall– to visit the West Bank, but West Bankers were prohibited from traveling in to the city that had previously been their main urban center.
Cut off from its longstanding natural hinterland in the West Bank, the commercial and professional bases of Jerusalem Palestinian life quickly started to wither and in many cases die.
Gaza meanwhile became cut off from the whole of the West Bank, including East Jerusalem, by the upgraded Wall the Israelis started constructing to encircle it right after 1993.
Jerusalemites have, however, been able to keep up (and expand) their contacts with the Palestinians who are citizens of Israel, the greater numbers of whom live in Galilee, in northern Israel. this relationship has become increasingly important for the Jerusalemites’ survival– both commercially and politically.
The vast majority of Jerusalem Palestinians– along with the few-thousand remaining Syrian residents of the occupied Golan– always refused to take up the “offer” of Israeli citizenship that was made to them, fearing this might strengthen Israel’s claim to longterm control over the areas they live in. This decision has left the Jerusalemites extremely vulnerable to the whims of the occupying power. And though the ICRC and some other international organizations continue to try to exercise some form of monitoring over the many violations of the Geneva Conventions to which the Palestinian Jerusalemites have been subject, the vast majority of the US-led world long ago seemed to acquiesce in practice in the argument strongly proclaimed by Israel that East Jerusalem “is already” part of Israel, and should remain so.
This, though only the “governments” of Micronesia and a couple other very small countries ever formally accepted Israel’s claim to sovereignty over the whole of the city.
The Palestinian Israelis, however, are citizens of Israel– even if only of a second-class nature, given the institutionalized discrimination that still exists within the proudly “Jewish” state. Palestinian-Israeli leaders and popular movements have maintained long campaigns to, for example, send busloads of their people up to Jerusalem on weekends so they can spend discretionary shekels in the souks and restaurants of East Jerusalem, thus keeping alive businesses that might otherwise founder. They have also rallied strongly around the campaign to try to prevent home demolitions in Jerusalem, one that has been gathering steam in recent weeks.
The politics of the Jerusalem Palestinians has therefore become increasingly closely tied to that of the Palestinian Israelis. (Over recent years, this has become an increasingly Islamist form of politics.)
In a seminar I recently went to in East Jerusalem’s Ambassador Hotel, the recently re-elected Palestinian-Israeli Knesset member Said Naffaa described the Palestinian people as configured like a triangle. Its three sides consisted, he said, of:
- 1. The Palestinian residents of the occupied territories;
2. The Palestinians of the “ghurba” (the diaspora), which is by far the largest of these three groups; and
3. The Palestinians who are citizens of Israel, who constitute the smallest of the three groups, in number, but also by virtue of their citizenship have special capabilities and special responsibilities to the nation as a whole.
It seems to me that the Jerusalem Palestinians occupy a special position within this basically triangular structure. They are part of Group 1, but they also occupy a key bridging role with Group 3. (Also, like all other members of Group 1, they have very close familial relations with Group 2, since just about all the OPT Palestinians have close family members who have been forced into exile by the combination of Israeli policies to which they’ve been subjected.)
Jerusalem is emerging as an increasingly critical issue in Israeli-Palestinian relations. The city’s 220,000 Palestinian residents lie, obviously, at the heart of that issue.
Well, Jerusalem is an issue in the dispute. But, not just for Arabs.
An important fact overlooked in your essay is the destruction of the Jewish quarter in the old city by Jordan, the expulsion by Jordan of the entire Jewish population of East Jerusalem (and of the entire West Bank), the destruction of synagogues in East Jerusalem and the refusal, in violation of the armistice agreement, to permit Jews to visit East Jerusalem.
You see only injustice to Palestinian Arabs. But frankly, injustice towards Jews is also at the heart of the matter. The expectation I have is that Palestinian Arabs would do no more than the Jordanians did.
For the record, I have no problem with an international organization controlling the city. Arab rule, however, has shown itself to be far worse, so far as equality is concerned, than Jewish rule. Actually, that is too kind since the Arabs expelled Jews in their entirety from all regions they conquered in the 1948 war.
One sided presentations do nothing to resolve the dispute.
At the political level for nearly 41 years now it has been a city of far-reaching, deeply institutionalized discrimination against people who happen to be non-Jews of a sort that if it were practiced anywhere in the world against Jews would (rightly) be the cause of massive international opprobrium….funny, but when Jerusalem was under Jordanian rule, and Jews were not allowed into the Old City, there was not a peep from Helena or the AFSI. During Jordanian rule, every synagogue in the Old City was destroyed. No opprobium then. What is really inflammatory to Helena and Islamists is that Jews control Jerusalem. It may be that there really is a connection pointed out by Shyryn that AFSI believes that Jews must suffer for rejecting Jesus and the Islamist belief that Jews are apes, dogs, and pigs. Obviously, Helena cannot stomach the fact that apes, dogs, pigs, and rejectors of Jesus control Jerusalem
Well, isn’t it amazing how Noah always manages to get his word in here first.
Re, “Scott’: When Jordan was last in control of East Jerusalem I was 14 years old. The current post does not pretend to be a complete survey of the history of Jerusalem’s two peoples, but some observations on the situation of the indigenous Palestinian residents of the occupied east of the city.
Fwiw, in the 2004 book that AFSC (not AFSI– where did that come from?) published on the I/P situation to which i contributed, we did give such a broader record of the history of the city. We noted there that while Jews were indeed banned from East Jerusalem by Jordan, during 1948-67, in that same period a much larger number of Palestinian Arabs were ethnically cleansed and then kept out of Israeli-controlled West Jerusalem. Those Jerusalem Palestinians have never been able to return to live in their family’s original homes in West Jerusalem… yet another instance of the discrimination under Israel’s administration of the city.
And now, hasbarista friends, your space on this comments board is up until at least six other people have had the chance to contribute. You wouldn’t want to be guilty of discourse-hogging, would you?
the 2004 book that AFSC (not AFSI– where did that come from?) published on the I/P situation to which i contributed, we did give such a broader record of the history of the city…. what did AFSC do to remedy the situation between 1948-1967?
bbbbbut, We noted there that while Jews were indeed banned from East Jerusalem by Jordan, during 1948-67, in that same period a much larger number of Palestinian Arabs were ethnically cleansed and then kept out of Israeli-controlled West Jerusalem…can you provide evidence for this? Perhaps their houses got occupied by the Jews who got kicked out of Arab lands
Can you provide weblinks that show AFSC condemning violence against Jews?
You state “The Palestinian Israelis, however, are citizens of Israel– even if only of a second-class nature, given the institutionalized discrimination that still exists within the proudly “Jewish” state.”
Would you give some examples, please. It is my understanding that Palestinians enjoy all the same rights as Jews. Please correct me on this.
David –
For all the examples you want just read Haaretz and other Israeli news media.
Thank you, Helena, for this analysis and the insights you provided here.
Helena, a lady should never give away her age…….;-)
Your hasbara claque seem to forget that the ultra-orthodox Jewish area of Mea Shearim was entirely unharassed and protected under Jordanian rule, and still harbours Neturei Karta, one of the very few genuine Israeli peace groups.
But when Israelis took Jerusalem in 1967 they demolished a large part of the city opposite the Western Wall, up to the Jewish Quarter, so they could get enough room to look at it.
If you visit the Jewish Quarter now you will see very, very expensive new apartment blocks, built in the settler fortress style.
You may be lucky enough to get a Jewish guide to take you on a tour of the city’s rooftops, from which Arabs are banned.
Since I’m not number six I will comment. I hate recalcitrance when I discover it, again, in myself. And I am sad when I see others, more intelligent than myself perhaps, give themselves up to it.
The operations of Israel in Palestine and of the US in Iraq and in Afghanistan are wrong, plainly wrong for all to see. The reaction of many Americans and Israelis is to retreat from the facts, which are wrong, and to defend and embrace their errant behaviour on the basis that… it is ours. So soon enough the coherence of the community is based upon a common knowledge of, a common owning up to wrong behaviour, and the community’s need to defend itself in the face of its cherished wrong behaviour.
“Yes, our behaviour is like the American genocide against the red peoples who came before them to America. It’s just our turn!”
“Yes, our behaviour is similar in kind to that of { the Khymer Rouge, the Third Reich, the Tutsis and the Hutus } but we’re not that bad!”
“You dwell upon our sins because you hate us!”
No, you hate yourselves because of your behaviour. And the only respite you have from your growing self-hate is when you band together making common cause against those who insist that you curb your wrong behaviour. For you are married to it, dedicated to it, defined by it.
Give it up.
Take it from an old drunk like myself who just quit drinking. How lucky I am to have been able to do so. Yeah, you’ll have to give up treasured delusions nursed by the bottle, or the battle. But you’ll be free.
I cannot make an adequate case for freedom versus slavery. The difference is too great. Take it on faith, as Blaise Pascal took the existence of God. The father of probability, of the analysis of risk, reasoned that the payoff inherent in the belief in God’s existence was infinite whereas any wager he’d risk in making it was finite, and that only a fool would not take a finite risk for an infinite payoff. Maybe only a gambler can make it. But I’m here to say that freedom, freedom from being driven by the need to expunge your guilt, an impossible task as long as you are married to your “sinful” self-destruction, is infinitely better than slavery.
So give it up. Let the Israelis and Palestinians live like brothers and sisters in the land of milk and honey. There is no reason why they cannot.
Richard, what you lack in rhetorical skill you make up for in lack of historical and geographical knowledge.
All of Mea Shearim was under Israeli rule from 1948 through 1967. It was never under Jordanian rule, and that is why the Naturei Karta were protected – despite the fact that they are anti-Zionist.
Further, Mea Shearim is not inside the walls of the Old City and nowhere near the Western Wall. The Wall is inside the Jewish Quarter, and it was the structures within the Jewish Quarter (from which Jews had been ethnically cleansed by the Arab Legion 19 years before) that were demolished to make room for the throngs of expected visitors.
Perhaps on your next visit you’ll get a guide who knows something.
Oops – JES forgot to mention that the structures around the Western Wall that Israel demolished to make room for throngs of visitors were Palestinian homes. He also forgot to mention that the human beings who lived in those homes were ethnically cleansed from the area, and not given alternative places to live. In fact, thousands of them were taken to the river and forced to cross into Jordan.
Shirin,
Palestinian homes just as the homes in Katamon (St. Simon) in Western Jerusalem are Jewish homes.
But let’s get back to the point, shall we?
JES – I’ve checked, and I was wrong in thinking that Mea Shearim was under Jordanian control. I was told so by my Israeli guides when I visited many years ago. The graffiti on the Mea Shearim walls equalling Israelis to Nazis, surprised me,a little.
It’s not inside the walls of the Old City, of course, as you must know.
So what is this piece of junk from you:
‘were demolished to make room for the throngs of expected visitors’.
These people are venerating a bit of an old wall built by Herod, a very unJewish Edomite.
“These people are venerating a bit of an old wall built by Herod, a very unJewish Edomite.”
I don’t know Richard. I think that, despite being an “old fart”, you haven’t yet learned the art of separating historical fact from religious venerations. One might just as easily ask the same question about Muslims – and particularly Palestinians. After all, the Haram ash-Sharif/Temple Mount was also explanded by Herod (and, in fact, the Western Wall is the retaining wall for that construction).
In the interest of deflating an old and quite false Israeli propaganda chestnut repeated, even by Helena, here: Jews were not banned from East Jerusalem etc under Jordanian rule, Israelis – Jews, Muslims and Christians alike, were. This is not too surprising for states formally at war. American Jews could and did go sightseeing in Jerusalem.
In fact, thousands of them were taken to the river and forced to cross into Jordan….Shirin, can you provide evidence for this, or is this a product of your fertile imagination?
These people are venerating a bit of an old wall built by Herod, a very unJewish Edomite…Herod’s father, Antipater, converted to Judaism. Richard, I think you need to make another trip to Israel, and this time obtain a knowledgable guide, not one who believes history began in 1990
Helena,
I am surprised by your reaction to the legitimate criticism I presented. Mine was not an exercise in propaganda.
You now recall an AFSC article mentioning a ban on (but evidently not, since you do not mention it, the ethnic cleansing of) Jews from Jerusalem and the West Bank. Your reply suggests that you still seem unable to appreciate their centrality to both understanding and resolving the dispute. Moreover, eliding facts central to how Israeli Jews understand the dispute– most especially when you write to an audience sympathetic to the Arab position and that is either unaware or unwilling to accept any blame on the Arab side–only serves to embitter and inflame hatred by those sympathetic with the Arab cause, rather than help reconcile the dispute. Has that not occurred to you?
I am even further surprised by the fact that, until the Antisemitism of one Shyryn Pourpour Mossadegh was pointed out by a number of posters, you did not leap at that posters several comments advocating religious war against Jews under the formula of Christian and Islamic replacement theology. Upon finally objecting, you felt the need to assure us that “there are of course other, much more valid and anti-colonialist grounds for rejecting the Zionists’ claims on Palestine.” For the record, your assertion confuses migration to escape persecution with colonialism and overlooks that migrants nearly always migrate with or thereafter adopt a political agenda related to their new homeland that comes into violent conflict with the existing society. For the record, the poster’s religious claim is propounded by numerous “respectable” Christian religious leaders and deserves a stronger objection than your easy dismissal.
Lastly, having posted the fact that I am not Noah, why do you persist in calling me by that name?
I wish to thank Jack for pointing me to Haaretz and other Israeli media. That’s the point I was hoping to make. When we make a statement here in the states that some group are second class citizens we naturally think it’s codified somewhere in the constitution or laws of that country. As an example, Jews cannot become citizens of Jordan, nor can the Palestinian refugees in Lebanon. The second class status of Palestinians in Israel is not by law any more than Blacks are second class citizens here in the US. Yes, Palestinians in Israel do not have access to the same education or opportunities as Jews do, just as Blacks do not access to the same education or opportunities as whites.
Israel isn’t perfect, but nor is it the bastion of evil.
Calling them second class citizens is misleading at best. I might even go so far as to call it outright lying because most Americans, and I imagine it goes double for the readers of this blog, that these are not differences in the law.
David: The second class status of Palestinians in Israel is not by law . . .
bzzzt. Wrong. Try again. You are correct, however, in that it is not in the Israeli “constitution”.
N. Friedman: . . .unwilling to accept any blame on the Arab side.
If only we could correctly apportion blame. Much better use of time than actually working for justice. Because once that blame was correctly portioned out by ethnicity, language, and class status in South Africa everything else just fell into place.
pulaski,
I have no brief for or against apportioning blame. I would not know where to begin and that was not where my comment was primarily directed.
My concern is with half-way presentation of the dispute in a manner that, by virtue of its one-sidedness, promotes hatred. By blame, I mean that Helena’s presentations, however innocently, blames Israel while exonerating Arabs and thus helps to stir up hatred.
In the case of Jerusalem with its long standing and continuous, from ancient times until 1948, Jewish community, Helena’s article overlooks the fact that Jews were ethnically cleansed from Jerusalem by the Arab side and were not even allowed to visit places wholly to Jews – notwithstanding the Armistice Agreement which required the Arab side to permit such visits. Such facts – and they are facts – present an obstacle to any imaginable future Arab rule with regard to Jerusalem. No Jewish leader could possibly ignore that bit of injustice from the Arab side. Frankly, not to understand the centrality of that point to the Israelis is to not understand the dispute.
The meanings of Al Quds
Al-Quds is the Arabic and Muslim name of Jerusalem, meaning “the Holy.” According to Surah Al Israh of the Qur’an, Muhammad was transported to “the furthest mosque” on his horse, Al Buraq. Muslims believe that the site of the furthest mosque or furthest place of worship is the temple mount in Jerusalem, site of the ancient Jewish temple and currently the site of the al Aqsa mosque. Muslims hold Al Quds to be the third holiest city, after Mecca and Medina, and it was originally the Muslim Qibla – direction of prayer.
The compound of the Beit-el-Maqdes (holy house, as in Hebrew- “Beit Hamiqdash – meaning the temple) is holy to Muslims. The Dome of the Rock or “Mosque of Omar” which is not a mosque but a shrine. Next to it is the al-Aqsa mosque. The same ground is holy to Jews as the Temple Mount. The original buildings were apparently built by Caliph Abd al Malik between 687 and 691, but the original al-Aqsa mosque did not survive.
In the 1960s the dome was resurfaced with gold. The dome covers a rock that according to Muslim tradition is the place where Muhammad departed to heaven. According to Jewish tradition it is the rock upon which Abraham sacrificed his son Isaac.
Muslims also revere the remains of the West Wall of the temple, which they believe is the place where Muhammad tied his horse when he he was flown to Jerusalem in one night.
Timeline of significant events for Al-Quds (Jerusalem)
5th millennium: The “Canaanites” (or Yevusites) conquer the site.
15th century: The area is conquered by Egypt.
About 990: The Hebrew king David conquers Yevus, including Zion and renames it Jerusalem, Yerushalayim or city of peace. He makes it his capital, and the Ark of the Covenant is brought to Jerusalem.
10th century: King Solomon builds the temple and has a wall built around the city
c. 920: Jerusalem is sacked by the army of Egyptian pharaoh Sheshonk 1.
c. 785: Joash, king of Israel sacks Jerusalem.
c. 701: Unsuccessful siege of Senacharib, king of Assyria. According to some sources, Jerusalem is nonetheless forced to pay tribute. A tunnel built by Hezekiah, king of Judea, contains a Hebrew inscription from this time, recording that the tunnel was dug to bring water to Jerusalem in preparation for the siege, and deny it to the Assyrians, as was related in the biblical book of Chronicles and the book of Kings. (See Hezekiah’s Tunnel)
c. 612: Assyria yields its supremacy over Judea to Babylonia.
c. 604: Jerusalem is pillaged by the Babylonians, and the king Jehoiakim and his court are captured and transferred to Babylon.
c. 587: The Temple of Jerusalem is destroyed by Nebuchadnezzar. Many of the inhabitants of Jerusalem are deported to Babylonia.
c. 538: The Persians defeat Babylon, and allow the Jews to return to Judea.
c. 515: Second temple is built under the patronage of Cyrus, king of Persia.
c 444: Nehemiah supervises rebuilding of the fortifications.
333: Jerusalem is part of Alexander’s empire or sphere of influence.
320’s: Jerusalem comes under control of Hellenistic Egypt, ruled by Ptolemy 1 Soter.
198: Jerusalem is transferred to Seleucus 1 Nicator, of Antioch.
167: Repressive measures spark a rebellion led by the family known as the Maccabees. The manage to drive the Selucids out of Jerusalem and Judea. Roman Senate recognizes Judah Maccabee as a “friend of the Roman people and senate, and places Judea under its protection.
63: Jerusalem conquered by Pompey of Rome, after he was invited to adjudicate a dispute regarding the priesthood.
40: Herod the Edomite becomes king of the Roman province of Judea.
4 Herod dies, and is succeeded by his son Archelaus.
6 ACE: Judean kingship is abolished and replaced by Roman procurators.
66: The Jews rebel against Roman rule.
70: Vespasian lays siege to Jerusalem; his son Titus conquers Jerusalem and razes the city, destroying the temple.
c. 132: After Romans under Caesar Hadrianus outlaw circumcision, a Jewish rebellion is staged by Simon Bar Kochba. The rebellion is crushed by 135 and large numbers of Jews are killed or exiled. With the advent of Christianity, Jerusalem becomes the center of that religion for a time, under the Church of St. James.
336: The Church of the Holy Sepulchre is built over the ground where Jesus was buried according to tradition.
Mid 4th century: Large immigration of Christians to Jerusalem, and Christian pilgrimage becomes popular. The relatively small city of Jerusalem was soon turned into a Christian city.
6th century: The Armenian church establishes its patriarchate in Jerusalem.
614: Jerusalem was briefly conquered by the Sassanid Persian king Khosrau 2. Many of Jerusalem’s inhabitants are massacred, and the churches destroyed.
628: Jerusalem reconquered by the Byzantines.
c. 637: Jerusalem is conquered by the Arab Muslims.
c. 688: Caliph Abd al Malik builds the holy compound over the ruins of the Temple of Jerusalem, and the place where the Muslims claimed that Muhammad had ascended to heaven. It includes the Dome of the Rock and the Al Aqsa mosque.
10th century: The current al-Aqsa mosque is built next to the Dome of the Rock.
969: Jerusalem comes under the rule of the Fatimids of Egypt.
1010: Fatimid caliph al-Hakim orders the destruction of the Christian shrines of Jerusalem, including the Church of the Holy Sepulchre.
11th century: New city walls are erected, which exclude the City of David and Mt. Zion.
1071: Seljuq Turks conquer Jerusalem.
1098: Jerusalem is recaptured by the Egyptians.
1099: European crusaders conquer Jerusalem, murdering about 70,000 and expelling all the Jews. The Latin Kingdom of Jerusalem is founded.
1141: Spanish Jewish poet Yehuda Halevi goes to Jerusalem.
1149: The new Church of the Holy Sepulchre is consecrated.
1187: Jerusalem is reconquered by the Muslims under Salah-eddin (Saladin). The “Kingdom of Jerusalem” continues to exist as a small state limited to the coast of Palestine.
1192: Richard the Lion hearted fails to retake Jerusalem.
1229: The crusaders resume control of Jerusalem under a treaty between German Emperor Frederick II and the Egyptian Sultan al-Kamil.
1244: Jerusalem is conquered by the Tatars.
1247: Jerusalem conquered by Egyptian Mameluks. The only Christians remaining in town were Greek Orthodox and some eastern churches. Jews were allowed to return.
1259: Jerusalem is sacked by the Mongols.
1517: Jerusalem conquered by Ottoman Empire under Sultan Selim.
1535-8: Suleiman the Magnificent rebuilds city ramparts and wall around Jerusalem.
1556: Earthquake in Jerusalem.
1831: Jerusalem is conquered by Egyptian troops of Mehmet Ali.
1840: The Ottomans conquer Jerusalem.
1847: The Latin Patriarchate (Roman Catholic Church) is reestablished in Jerusalem.
1859-60: Mishkenot Shaananim constructed outside the walled city by Jews.
1869: Nahlat Shiva constructed outside the walled city.
1873-5: Meah Shearim constructed outside the walled city.
1887: A municipality is established for Jerusalem.
1917: British troops take control of Jerusalem, following the defeat of the Ottomans in the World War I.
1918: Cornerstone of Hebrew University is laid in Mount Scopus, northeast of the old city.
1920: Arab riots against Jewish community.
1921: Arab riots against Jewish community.
1922: Jerusalem becomes part of the British Mandate for Palestine.
1920s: Hajj Amin Al Husseini, Grand Mufti, solicits funds from Arab countries to renovate Muslim holy places.
1929: Arabs riot in Jerusalem and Hebron, killing Jews, owing to a false rumor claiming that the Jews planned to violate the sanctity of the Al Aqsa mosque.
1936: Arabs riot in Jerusalem as part of the “Great Arab Revolt,” committing atrocities against the Jewish community in the old city. British authorities lose control of the city for a time. About half the Jews of Jerusalem leave the old city.
November 29, 1947: UN General Assembly Resolution 181 designates Jerusalem as an international enclave following the partition of Palestine into Jewish and Palestinian states. Arab states refuse to recognize internationalization.
December 1948: Arab riots break out in Jerusalem immediately following the partition resolution.
January 1948: Arabs begin blockade of Jerusalem.
January 16, 1948: Jewish rescue mission (“convoy on foot”) to Gush Etzion, which guarded one of the approaches to Jerusalem, is intercepted and massacred.
April 9, 1948: Irgun and Lehi raid the Arab village of Deir Yassin, at the entrance to Jerusalem, and kill over 100 civilians.
1948: Israeli forces take control of western Jerusalem, as well as a corridor from the coastal regions. Arabs are expelled. Jordan legion conquers the old city of Jerusalem and eastern areas, expelling all the Jews.
pulaski,
Again, an example would be much appreciated. It shouldn’t be that hard. Here in the states we could point to the disproportionate funding of our schools that put Blacks at such a disadvantage. That’s in our laws and our state constitutions. One could argue from there that that makes Blacks second class citizens.
Please, give me an example.
David
Sadly, the discource here of late boils down to “look was Israel is doing” with retorts along the lines of “but Arabs did this to Jews first”.
The desire to apportion blame on one side or the other does nothing to further a solution.
So, with that my primary focus, I’ll offer my suggestions.
All house demolitions should be halted. No new settlement units should be built in the occupied teritories (and that includes ‘natural settlement expansion’). The siege of Gaza should be lifted. Checkpoints in the occupied teritories should be either dismantled or manned by UN Blue Berets. It should be illegal for civilians to carry weapons in the streets.
Violence from whatever quarter begets violence.
IrishQuaker,
Yours is yet another example on this website of pretend interest in peace. If you were really serious about efforts to bring peace, then you would not be one sided with your suggestions.
In fact, people embroiled in the dispute should not do all sorts of things that they do. That goes for Arabs, not just Jews. Your list is only directed at Israelis, as if only Arabs have legitimate concerns. In the scheme of things, negating legitimate Israeli concerns foments hatred and makes peace less, not more, likely to break out.
So, you should add to your list that people should not walk into malls, buildings, pizza parlors, buses, etc., etc. and blow themselves and everyone around them up. Bombs should not be planted in markets. People should not shoot rockets at civilian neighborhoods hoping to murder as many civilians as they can. And, people should not take captives. And, people should not deny the legitimacy of the other side in the dispute and should not advocate the mass expulsion of other people or their being massacred. Etc., etc.
Scott Benson, I am, unfortunately, an empiricist, and have never been blessed with much imagination at all. Therefore I am forced to depend upon observable or verifiable facts to draw conclusions about reality. It makes me a bit geeky and dull at times, but it is how I am.
For the 1967 expulsions of Palestinians I do not have a single source, but literally hundreds of sources to choose from. That is far too many to list here, so please let me know where you would you like to begin? Would you prefer a list of UN documents? News reports? Eyewitness accounts? Accounts from some of the Palestinians who were forced across the borders? Or do you prefer citations from books? Just let me know your preference.
It’s really quite surprising that you, obviously a knowledgeable person, are unaware of the very well-known fact that some 300,000 or so Palestinians were “assisted” across the border in 1967, but I guess no one can possibly know everything, can they?
“it is not in the Israeli ‘constitution’.”
Did Israel finally get a constitution?! Wow! What’s next? Will Israel finally declare its borders?
How Israel Gives Jews a Bad Name
Most Jews I know get little pleasure from the existence of Israel; just the opposite. They feel disgusted by the behavior of their tribal kin toward Palestinians.
More and more Jews worldwide are apparently tiring of slavery, of being dragged along, and down, by the far right-wing in control of Israel. They want to assert their independence. They want finally to cut Israel lose. They have nothing to lose but their chains!.
I am, unfortunately, an empiricist, and have never been blessed with much imagination at all. Therefore I am forced to depend upon observable or verifiable facts to draw conclusions about reality.
LOL@Shirin. That’s exactly what Scott Benson has been asking you to provide: observable or verifiable facts! Instead you “backpeddle” here and send him to hunt for his own evidence that there were not “thousands…taken to the river and forced to cross into Jordan….”
So far, you haven’t provided a single “fact” or piece of evidence. Rather you have flailed about hurling abuse anyone who disagrees with you. I’d say that’s hardly a mature approach. Certainly no more so than “liar, liar pants on fire”, or arguing that your thies are chubby.
John Francis Lee,
Anecdotal evidence is often suspect. In this case, what you write is contradicted by scientifically conducted surveys which suggests exactly the opposite of what you report.
N. Friedman,
What a shame !
How can you be so hateful, insensitive and cynical ?
I presume that’s just because of the actual circumstances. Would you be so combative in the case you were oppressed ?
I’ve got a good exercize for you : go out, have a walk and try to smile to others (as many as possible, have a try, they don’t bite!). Important: don’t forget to breath deeply to get more relaxed.
I’m sure you’ll sense love and compassion (or kind of; it’s all about practice Noah! Be patient) and finally understand complexity is also in your blood and in your thought.
Sincerely,
PS: Nobody is perfect, take it easy !
PS 2: Please, respect the rule of my game. Read this article only after finishing your first training, ok? You promise? Then go ahead : An Interview with Haider Eid – Massacre in Slow Motion (Eric Ruder, Counterpunch, 13-15/03/09)
http://www.counterpunch.org/ruder03132009.html
PS 3: Then repeat the first exercize. Remember? Smile at people whoever they are.
PS 4: I’m sure you’ll soon notice physical and mental health improvement. Breath and smile, that’s the key, Noah! Yes, you can!
Yann,
I have no idea what you have in mind.
I favor resolving the dispute so as to address the legitimate concerns and interests of both sides to the dispute. Denying that there are legitimate concerns and interests on both sides is an unproductive, dishonest endeavor. It is the view of a person who has hate in his or her heart.
I shall not reply to your “Noah” comment other than to call it moronic.
Wow, Helena has created a little toxic clubhouse for Israel haters like herself, and then has the gall to claim that those who engage in counterspeech are “discourse hogging.”
So now there is a limit on the number of comments someone who does not engage in one-sided bashing of Israel can post. Sort of like the Jewish quotas in universities not too long ago.
It’s not so much Helena’s view on the conflict that is so sad. It’s that she a) tries to wrap her support for racist warmongerers as “peace activism” and b) tries to portray counterspeech as “discourse suppression.” She’s not only racist, but Orwellian about the whole matter.
It really is sad to see how this site has descended from its original days.
N. Friedman
I have often criticised the criminal and counter-productive tactic of suicide bombing, which Hamas has long abandoned.
I have also condemned indescriminate rocket fire whether from homemade rockets or laser guided munitions.
Of course, if Israel really had the interests of its citizens in mind, last summer’s cease fire in which Hamas fired no rockets and not a single Israeli was killed whould have been extended after the siege of Gaza was lifted. But no; Israel broke its promise to lift the siege and refused a renewed cease fire because (as Ha’aretz reported) the planning for the assault on Gaza which had gone for months was about to be put into action.
The fact that your posts never mention the illegal appropriation of land, house demolitions or extra-judicial assassinations, all of which violate international law, speaks volumes.
IrishQuaker,
Now you are resorting to propaganda. My comment was about attacks against Jews. You, in reply, claim more narrowly that Hamas fired no rockets and Hamas gave up the suicide attack – a dubious claim in any event.
For the record, less your elision be confused with the truth, rockets were fired from Gaza – which is ruled by Hamas such that it is the responsible party – during the lull. According to The Intelligence and Terrorism Information Center, there were 223 rockets and 139 mortar shells fired from Gaza during the lull. There were 20 rockets and 18 mortar shells before November 4.
There were martyrdom attacks in Israel during 2008: in Dimona, Israel on February 4, 2008. One Israeli, a 73 year old woman, was killed by the Jihadi. Nine other people were injured in the attack, including one who was critically injured.
There was also the massacre at the Merkaz Harav yeshiva. Eight students were kille; eleven more were wounded, of which five of them were in serious to critical condition. That one was technically not a suicide mission but the Jihadi surely knew he would not survive the attack and it was treated by Palestinian Arabs as a martyrdom attack. It led to celebrations by Palestinian Arabs. According to the Associated Press:
Evidently, Hamas and Palestinian Arabs believe that massacring innocent civilians is a blessed thing.
On April 9, 2008, two Israeli civilians were killed and two others were wounded by Palestinian Arabs. It was reported to be the work of a collaboration by various Jew hating groups.
The reality here is that Israel’s defensive measures – checkpoints, fences, walls, armed civilians, etc. – have made the suicide massacre more difficult. There, however, is no evidence that Hamas (or any of the other hate groups) has changed its view on martyrdom missions. None at all.
JES, as you know, I very clearly did not send him to hunt for his own evidence. At least try to be honest about that.
I am actually a bit shocked that anyone challenges the fact and nature of the 1967 expulsions since even avid Israel apologists admit they occurred.
While there are no credible accounts of widespread Israeli atrocities as in 1948, in 1967 the Israelis “encouraged” and in many cases “assisted” Palestinians in the West Bank (including East Jerusalem) and the Gaza Strip to cross the border into Jordan, Egypt, or Lebanon. They transported thousands of Palestinians to the borders and “encouraged” them to cross, sometimes with gunfire. They demolished homes and entire villages, preventing the refugees’ return, even after making radio announcements that the refugees should return to their homes. Those are facts which have been documented by the UN, by Israeli officials, by Israeli soldiers who participated, by journalists, by eyewitnesses, by historians and other authors.
Unlike in 1948, in most cases the Israelis did not expel the people at gunpoint, though in some they did. In some cases they made use of loudspeakers and radio announcements to “encourage” people to leave and then demolished their homes and/or barred their return.
In some cases they forced people onto trucks and buses which transported them to the border. In other cases they “helpfully” provided transportation to the border for those who “wished to leave” (as you will see below, for the most part refugees were given very little alternative but to leave). As just one example, the BBC reported the following Israeli radio announcement on June 15, 1967: “A special transport service for Arab civilians who want to be transferred from the Old City of Jerusalem began operating today. This was announced by the West Bank headquarters. People who want to leave are carried from the Nablus Gate to Jericho by special buses. From Jericho they cross the Jordan river to the eastern bank. Similar arrangements have also been made for Arab population centers in other areas in the West Bank.” (BBC “Summary of World Broadcasts, ME/2493/A9)
Among the villages the Israelis wiped out very early on were Beit Nuba, Imwas, Yalu, Beit Marsam, Beit Awa, Habla, and Jifliq. A French nun, Sister Marie-Therese wrote in her diary about what she and her fellow nuns from the order of Companions of Jesus saw in Latroun: “…there was what the Israelis did not want us to see: three villages [Beit Nuba, Imwas, and Yalu] systematically destroyed by dynamite and bulldozer. Alone in a deathly silence donkeys wandered about in the ruins. Here and there a crushed piece of furniture, or a torn pillow stuck out of the mass of plaster, stones, and concrete. A cooking pan and its lid abandoned in the middle of the road. They were not given enough time to take anything away.” (Les Cahiers du Temoingnage Chretien, 5 October, 1967, p 47)
There were also reassuring radio announcements from the Israelis encouraging those who had been forced out to return to their homes. Amos Kenan, an Israeli soldier wrote an account of his experience in Beit Nuba after its inhabitants had been forced our. “We were ordered to block the entrances of the village and prevent inhabitants returning to the village from their hideouts after they had heard Israeli broadcasts urging them to go back to their homes. The order was to shoot over their heads and tell them not to enter the village. Beit Nuba is built of fine quarry stone; some of the houses are magnificent. Every house is surrounded by an orchard, olive trees, apricots, vines, and presses. They are well kept. Among the trees there are carefully tended vegetable beds….At noon the first bulldozer arrived and pulled down the first house at the edge of the village. Within ten minutes the house was turned into rubble, including its entire contents; the olive trees, cypresses were all uprooted.”
He goes on to describe the scene as waves of returning refugees approach the village and are turned away, told to go to Beit Sura. He says he asked the officers “why those refugees were sent from one place to another and driven out of everywhere. They told us that this was good for them, they should go. ‘Moreover’, said the officers, ‘why do we care about the Arabs anyway…?” He goes on to write “We drove them out….in the evening we found that they had been taken in, for in Beit Sura, too, bulldozers had begun to destroy the place and they were not allowed to enter….The promise on the radio was not kept…” (Israel Imperial News, London, March, 1968) It is not difficult to see why many thousands of Palestinians might have taken the Israelis up on their kind provision of transportation to the border.
And Sister Marie-Therese describes the scene she witnessed at the Allenby bridge. “With their children and their parcels they had to clamber down the smashed bridge and wade through the water with the help of ropes. The Israeli soldiers, seated in armchairs, had been watching them pass for a fortnight….As we were leaving, a weeping woman approached me; she told me that she had just crossed the river to help some relatives who were leaving, but that she herself had to return to Bethlehem where her children were; for the soldiers had said that, according to the law, she had to go to Amman since she had crossed the bridge. We thought this little business could easily be settled by speaking to the officer. The officer, who remained seated in his armchair, said: ‘This woman has signed at the first station and they all know that once they have signed they never go back…” (Les Cahiers du Temoingnage Chretien, p 20)
Numerous others, including some Israelis, have described a similar scene at the Allenby bridge, including in some cases Israeli soldiers “encouraging” the refugees along their way with gunfire.
There are also numerous accounts of similar “encouragement” and “assistance” in Gaza.
So no one wants to give me an example of a law that specifically differentiates between Jews and non-Jews to justify the use of the phrase “second class citizens”.
OK, I’ll go even further to point out your double standard. Non-Jews in Israel face less discrimination both by law or through society that minorities in any of the 21 sovereign countries of the Arab league.
Anyone want to give me actual facts that I can confirm to prove me wrong?
Sherry’s last entry well exceeds Helena’s 300 word limit for comments. My questions is will Helena promptly take corrective action?
Oh, I forgot, Helena has to repeatedly bend the “rules” for anti-Israel posters in order to allow for “open discourse.”
Oh, c’meon david, you can’t be serious in claiming you know nothing about these matters? Try going to the website of Adalah (English, here.) Look for info on the lengthy series of court cases regarding restrictions on the right of non-Jews to reside where they choose, as exemplified in the Qa’adan case. Look at HRW’s work on inequities in funding for Arab schools in Israel. You’ll find Jim Crow laws and regs maintained against Palestinian citizens of Israel wherever you look. A Jewish person who just got off the plane from Moldova (like Avigdor Lieberman) has more rights in Israel than Palestinians whose forebears have been there since time immemorial.
that specifically differentiates between Jews and non-Jews to justify the use of the phrase “second class citizens”.
Look to you Torah first and as your state is JEWISH State make it more closer with the believe in that book.
Don’t tell us, It’s is the ONLY democracy in ME State…
Oh, grow up, Joshua.
And, David, in addition to the very good resources Helena has suggested, try talking to Jewish and Palestinian citizens of Israel about their experiences traveling out of, back into and within that country of which they are supposedly “equal” citizens. You will find them pretty consistently and quite starkly different, and not in a good way – unless, of course, you happen to be a “more equal” Jewish citizen of the Jewish State.
I apologize, N., for calling you “Noah”.
Please, could you stop essentializing the analyze of the conflict? It’s getting more and more boring, counter-productive and racist.
You don’t want to recognize the right of the Palestinians to live in peace?
Any innocent Israeli can’t fairly suscribe to your segregationist approach that finally leads the country towards isolation and desappearance.
Self-destruction is your only argument.
I am amazed at the amount of energy and time the hasbaristas are spending to pseudo-intellectualize the discourse. This is all the same method – get away from facts and from reality which everyone can see – as some commenter earlier said. They (the Israel wright of wrong people) seem to be paid to do this kind of jamming of some websites. The old soviet tactics of jamming are hard to die among Israelis, many of whom came from USSR or from current Russia. Freedom will win, get over it !! That what the people behind the Iron Curtain always knew – they kept listening to the forbidden western radiostations.
My comment to you was that I hoped to resolve the dispute. It was not essentialist unless you consider resolving the dispute to be an essentialist matter.
N. Friedman.
In your world, every Palestinian who commits a criminal act is a ‘Jihadi’ but Israel just kills people in self defence. Sixty years of illegal occupation are irrelevant?
In your response to my post about the cease fire, you intentionally avoided my main point. It was a success but Israel broke its promises.
The killings in Dimona and Merkaz Harav had nothing to do with Hamas.
Regarding the support in Gaza for these acts of violence, I remind you of the pictures of children writing slogans on shells being fired into Lebanon, or the groups of young Israels on hills overlooking Gaza during the recent assault.
I would like to ask a simple question. Is Israel legally entitled to build settlements in the West Bank or East Jerusalem?
Helena,
I want to thank you for the link. Obviously I have not read everything on the site, but I found what I was looking for. In Press Releases, under “The Palestinian Minority in the Israeli Legal System.” It first states that the Declaration of Independence makes reference to the “complete equality of political and social rights for all its citizens irrespective of race, religion and sex.” In the next paragraph it states that they have identified 20 laws that discriminate against the Palestinian minority. They didn’t give an example but I have no doubt that to varying degrees that would be true. In election 2000, Kathrine Harris removed tens of thousands of names from voter registration rolls, since these names were disproportionately Blacks we could easily argue that this discriminated against Blacks.
But this does not make Blacks second class citizens in the same sense of the word as when you refer to Arabs as second class citizens of Israel.
The statement of equality in Israel’s Declaration of Independence I don’t believe you will find in any of the countries of the Arab league. How well or poorly it is executed is of course unfortunate to tragic. Most of your readers need no further incentive to hate Israel but for a new reader to your site who wants to try to learn what is going on in the middle east they will be unpersuaded to your cause when they figure out that when you say Arabs are second class citizens you mean it in the same way as Blacks are second class citizens in the US.
I will continue reading as it would appear that things are worse than when I lived in Israel.
David, Scott, N., Noah, JES, Vadim, Joshua,
Break on through to the other side.
If Israel were the US, and Palestinians were offered the so-called “second class” citizenship of Blacks in America under a Barack Obama administration, I am betting that Palestinians today would jump at the opportunity.
Can you imagine a Prime Minister Barack Obama of “the Jewish state of Israel?”
Nahhhhh! And therein lies the difference.
I did not think there were any prototypical liberal American Jewish supporters of Israel left in the blog world who make the same kind of inane arguments made by the HAsbara-folk on this comments section. Still unconvinced of the officially-manufactured gross betrayal of humane values which is the state of Israel today?!?!
Oh, I almost forgot, the Hasbara folk on this comment section are not actually serious commentators. They just habitually enjoy making arses of themselves, before being handed their hats.
IrishQuaker,
The main problem with your thesis is that Israel did not, in fact, promise to end the blockade. According to the Economist (June 18, 2008):
I have no reason to think that contemporary report wrong. Are you saying the Economist is wrong?
You also argue that Hamas did not kill anyone in Dimona. The issue raised by me was not whether Hamas has killed people. It is whether Palestinian Arabs have killed people. You keep attempting the narrow acts by Palestinian Arabs, as if everything is ok if Hamas is not the killer. Why, if you want to condemn all killing, elide it?
Your argument about a 60 year “occupation” – a legal, not a descriptive term – is contradicted by the fact that Israel is in the UN. So, the occupation could not be for 60 years.
You ask whether it is legal for Israel to build homes in East Jerusalem or the WB. Let us say, for argument sake, that it is legal. Would that change your view? I doubt it.
What you really mean to say is that Jews have no moral right to build homes in East Jerusalem, a city – notwithstanding the elisions from Helena’s article – from which Jews were ethnically cleansed in 1948 and from which the Jewish Quarter had been destroyed in that war.
Morally, there is nothing wrong with building in East Jerusalem. In the case of the rest of the WB, Israel should not, for practical reasons, build anywhere that the country contemplates ceding for a Palestinian Arab state.
N. Friedman.
With regard to the cease fire terms, the BBC reports:
“Under the terms of the new agreement, Israel will ease restrictions on the trade of certain goods between Gaza and Israel on Friday morning, and open up the crossings for all commercial goods next week.”
Note: all commercial goods
The New York Times said that both sides failed to meet their obligations fully.
You see no problem with settlement building in East Jerusalem and only believe settlement building in the West Bank shouldn’t occur for merely practical reasons. Sucessive UN General Assembly resolutions, security council resolutions and international law are completely disregarded.
Being a member of the UN does not mean that Israel has no obligations as an occupying power. Rather, it reinforces those obligations.
Land stolen must be returned.
Sd,
I would agree with you that given the chance most Palestinians in Israel would jump at the chance to live with the same status of Blacks here in the US. But I’m going to go a step further along the theme I have been making that Arabs are not true second class citizens and say the most true second class citizens around the world would probably jump at the chance to live the second class status of Palestinians in Israel. They have access to university, they are not restricted to given professions and albeit with some legal restrictions have the ability to live where they can afford. Not many true second class citizens around the world have those opportunities.
Final note: we have a black president and it is unlikely that Israel, at least anytime soon will see an Arab Prime Minister. But I’m wondering, if we had a Parliamentary system like Israel or the UK, would we have elected Obama. It helped to have a choice between just two.
IrishQuaker,
The requirement was not that all commercial goods would be allowed in. What was agreed to was an reduction in restrictions.
The UN is not arbiter of what is moral. It is an organization which institutes the views of various majorities, based on narrow political grounds, not on justice and not on morality. So, there may be a moral argument for the UN view. That does not, however, mean that if the UN says something, it has asserted what is moral.
yawn
I think it is time for Quakers and other people of justice to defend and promote supercessionism against zionist pressure. For too long, we have ignored this common theological bond between us and Islam, and have not paid attention to what happened to the Catholic church when it was forced to abandon it. Catholicism has been seriously weakened. The adhrents of Judaism need to pay for their theological errors in rebuffing either of the choices we have given them
“most true second class citizens around the world would probably jump at the chance to live the second class status of Palestinians in Israel”
You live in a deeper dream world than even I imagined. Most people around the world, whether first class or second class citizens of their own countries, know that being Palestinian in Israel means that you can be shot by a Jewish citizen acting with impunity on virtually any day of the year.
Most people in the world know that being Palestinian in Israel means having your national and cultural identity smothered or marginalized on the way to extinction.
Most people in the world know that Israel, a state which at one time held up the lantern of humanitarian ideals (although drawing attention away from the ethnic cleansing of 1948-1949), has become a state exhibiting some of the most reactionary religious nationalist and bigoted tendencies in the world today.
The idea that Israel’s political culture compares to the kind of tolerance in America for multi-culturalism and social diversity and hyphenated nationalism (African-American, Hispanic-American, Asian-American, etc, which is by the way something which tolerant minded and secular Jewish Americans have been at the forefront of advancing through civil rights movements going back to the early 20th century) is a cruel joke.
No, this is precisely where Israel does not resemble America. It is precisely where so-called “Israeli democracy” fails in comparison to other tolerant secular civil democracies around the world. And it is precisely where the model of Israel as a “Jewish state” has no foundation and will inevitably come crashing down.
Israelis can not deny Palestinian rights (whether those Palestinians are carrying Israeli passports, or living under Israeli occupation and behind Israeli Israeli “Iron Walls,” or continuing to dwell in exile) and still claim to be a civil democracy. On the other hand Israelis know full well that to grant those Palestinians full democratic rights, it would mean the end of Israel as a Jewish state because, like the disappearance of a racist White South African system, Israel would one day be transformed by a non-Jewish majority.
This is the fundamental dilemma of 21st century Israel, and the dread it evokes in ISraelis, and the burden it places on the Israeli conscience, explains why Hasbaristas like yourselves waste your time trying to convince people otherwise. Around the world, there is no longer tolerance for Israel’s make-believe imaginations.
People want to immigrate to Israel? Don’t make me laugh.
“People want to immigrate to Israel? Don’t make me laugh.”
The great majority of Jews do not want to immigrate to Israel despite increasingly desperate attempts to induce them to do so.
And then there is the growing emigration problem Israel is experiencing – and it’s not “Arabs” who are leaving in increasing numbers, it is Jews.
N. Friedman.
I am aware that Israel holds the UN in contempt.
Over the years, successive Israeli governments and their few allies (notably the US), have done everything in their power to de-legitimise the UN and wave away the nicities of international law, the Hague and Geneva conventions.
UN facilities have frequently been attacked, most recently in Gaza and Lebanon. Indeed, Irish peacekeepers in Lebanon have often been on the receiving end of Israel’s munitions.
I would have hoped that you could agree that natural justice demands the return of land stolen by Israel just as we demand that property stolen in WW II be returned to its rightful owners.
If Israel maintains its current policies in the West Bank, Gaza and East Jerusalem, it will create a one state apartheid solution with Palestinians living in isolated Bantustans with no control over their borders with Egypt and Jordan.
I don’t think this is in the long term interest of Israel. But who am I to say?
There are some wonderful groups in Israel pushing for a meaningful two state solution such as Gush Shalom, B’tselem and Peace Now. Their policies guarantee peace and justice for Israelis and Palestinians.
I would have hoped that you could agree that natural justice demands the return of land stolen by Israel just as we demand that property stolen in WW II be returned to its rightful owners.. what about the restitution of Jewish properties that were confiscated in Egypt, Iraq, Lebanon, Iran, Syria, Morocco etc in the 1940s and 1950s? Or perhaps the accounts of what the Palestinians lost would be balanced by what the Sephardic Jews lost. Why not resettle Palestinians in the homes abandoned by Jews of Arab lands?
Etty, justice demands restitution for property confiscated from the Arab Jews in Iraq, etc. However, the Palestinians should not be made to pay for what Arab governments did anymore than non-Israeli Jews should pay for what Israel stole from the Palestinians. It is not justice to tie one to the other.
IrishQuaker,
Nothing I have said holds the UN in contempt. What I have said is that the decisions of the UN are about politics, not morality. No serious person, whether they agree with the UN’s view of Israel or not, can possibly disagree.
East Jerusalem is not stolen land. Neither is the West Bank or Gaza. It is land over which there is a dispute. Each side makes claims. Many of them are bogus. Some claims are real.
There is a difference between propaganda and reality, and claiming that any part of Jerusalem was stolen by anyone has no basis in history. Perhaps you recall the UN 181 did not award East Jerusalem to a proposed Arab state. It left the matter to future decisions. That does not make it Arab land.
As for compensation, both sides are due compensation for wrongs committed. There is nothing unusual about that and were cosmic justice the way to resolve problems, I can assure you that no one is due more from Christians and Muslims than Jews. But frankly, I think that cosmic justice is a bad way to go. It is the talk of revenge and resentment and I believe in rejecting revenge and resentment. The parties should try to reach a pragmatic settlement that ends the conflict. That means walking away from what each side believes it is due as a matter of morality, law or cosmic justice.
My view is that the “wonderful” groups you mention are naive – sometimes driven by deep seeded resentments – and make it less, not more, likely that the dispute will ever be resolved. I have no use for such groups and much of what they claim turns out to be wrong anyway.
Etty,
Let me restate my previous comment about Palestinian property stolen by Israel and government-confiscated Arab Jewish property.
Both Palestinians and Arab Jews who have had property taken from them unjustly are entitled to restitution.
The property confiscated by Arab governments from their Jewish citizens should not be held hostage to a resolution of Palestinian property claims.
The property stolen from Palestinians by the Zionists and the State of Israel should not be held hostage to resolution of Arab Jews’ property claims.