Israel’s leaders have given contradictory signals about how they want the current war to end. Some say they want to force Hamas to bend to their will. Some have said they want to break the organization completely. But now that Israel has sent ground forces deep into Gaza it is clearer than ever before that it will be unable to bring about either of these outcomes.
At the end of the day, to extricate itself from the uber-quagmire that Gaza represents, both physically in itself and politically throughout the region and the world, Israel will still have to engage in a negotiation with Hamas. Here’s why.
1. Hamas’s leaders have shown that they cannot be “broken” to the extent that they will bow to Israel’s will. Israel may be able to kill or capture most or all of Hamas’s leaders in Gaza– and it is possible, though unlikely, that some of those men may break under torture and give an appearance of bowing to Israel’s will. But Hamas’s overall leadership structure remains outside Gaza Through an intentional decision of Hamas in the 1990s, the overall leadership was vested in leaders not subject to any direct Israeli pressure. Hamas’s overall leader, Khaled Meshaal, lives and works in Damascus. Beyond him, Hamas has an extensive network of leaders distributed throughout the Arab states and further afield. (And contrary to US-Israeli hasbara attempts, Hamas has supportive relations with a number of Gulf Arab states.)
2. But Hamas’s structures inside Gaza are steely and resilient, too. They have been honed through 20 years of confrontation with Israel, in the course of which Israel has assassinated more than 100 Hamas leaders, including the highest layers of its leaders in Gaza. Also, for 38 years ending in 2005, the IDF had direct control over all of Gaza, which it exercised using very repressive means, including very intrusive house searches, mass arrests, torture and other means of intimidation, and extensive systems of movement controls. But Hamas in Gaza (which, ironically, had in an earlier era been incubated by the Israeli occupation forces as an alternative to the secular nationalists of the PLO) overcame all those measures taken against it prior to 2005, regenerating capable new layers of leadership to replace those annihilated by Israel. As I’ve noted previously, each new generation of leadership emerged steelier than the last one.
3. Many Israelis close to the government have suggested that Abu Mazen’s US-trained Fateh forces could be brought into Gaza from the West Bank and help Israel both to police Gaza and to impose a political endgame on a defeated Hamas. That is impossible, for two reasons. First, Hamas is not about to be defeated– so if Fateh forces do come into Gaza, it will be through a negotiated agreement between the two Palestinian movements, not through the imposition of Israeli-Fateh force on Hamas. Second, the Fateh forces are already coming under considerable pressure in the West Bank, where opinion has shifted sharply in favor of Hamas since Israel began this war December 27. The rising tide of criticism that Abu Mazen faces in his comfortable Ramallah home-base will not allow him to enter Gaza as an Israeli proxy. If he did, he might lose Ramallah and the rest of the West Bank to Hamas. Today, Abu Mazen has made clear that he won’t accept a role as Israeli cat’s-paw in Gaza.
4. Might Israel seek to impose a solution on Hamas by bringing in Arab or international forces to replace the IDF as it withdraws? This, too, is a quite illusory goal. No country is going to send forces into Gaza to replace (or even more, supplement) the IDF presence there unless it has credible guarantees that this deployment will not expose it to Hamas’s opposition both within Gaza and possibly far beyond. Every country recognizes that the desperate situation of the population in Gaza means that any security system that is imposed on them will be harshly resisted. Also, no country is going to deploy forces there without guarantees that Gaza can simultaneously be opened back up to the world economy. No country wants to openly collaborate with Israel in maintaining the siege on Gaza’s people.
5. Israelis and its backers in Washington and elsewhere also need to understand the region-wide and global implications of any prolongation of the infantry (and air and naval) actions against Gaza’s people. The longer this war goes on, the higher the regional stakes rise. At some point– in Gaza as in Lebanon in 2006– Israel’s leaders themselves will start crying out for a way out. So will the United States, which has its own very extensive interests in the region and whose forces are noticeably more over-stretched than they were in 2006. The terms on which Israel is able to extricate itself from the mess it has created in Gaza will become more unfavorable for it with every day the war continues. Better for Israel to nail down the exit/end-game now, rather than wait any more days. (So they may hope to kill another two dozen Hamas leaders if they can just carry on fighting– possibly including the elected Prime Minister and Foreign Minister? It would change nothing, see #2 above. But killing Haniyeh or Zahhar would certainly have broad political/security consequences throughout the region.)
6. All the above proves that the only way for Israel to minimize the damage it ends up suffering from the present, very ill-chosen war of choice is by winning the agreement of the Hamas leadership to the terms of a negotiated ceasefire for Gaza. Hamas leader Meshaal, who has been calling for a renewed ceasefire throughout the war, has clearly laid out the movement’s terms for it. It must be, he said, a ceasefire that is reciprocally binding on both parties (as the previous six-month ceasefire was.) But this time, unlike in the previous ceasefire, Israel must be obligated to follow through on the commitment to lift the siege of Gaza.
7. There are many channels through which this indirect negotiation can take place. The mediation effort of Turkish prime minister Rejep Teyip Erdogan may be the most effective. The UN Security Council could play a role in the negotiation (if the US weren’t blocking this). But it will certainly need to play a role in helping orchestrate and perhaps monitor the implementation of the ceasefire.
8. Since the world is now in a crisis over Gaza, the leaders of the P-5 nations at the security Council should all seriously consider the benefits of “using” this crisis as a springboard directly into an authoritative, international peace conference at which the terms of final peace agreements between Israel and the Palestinians, Israel and Syria, and Israel and Lebanon are finally hammered out. The peoples of the region and the security of the world have suffered far too much already from the endless ineffectuality of the efforts the US has made over the past 15 years to exercize complete control over the peacemaking. It is the failure of those efforts that have brought us where we are.
48 thoughts on “A negotiated ceasefire: The best Israel can expect”
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A very well argued piece. I sense the ground moving underneath the States in the Middle East that obey Bush’s instructions.
Es dificil conseguir una solucion en este conflicto… los conflictos del medio oriente siempre van a existir, alomejor es dificil para nosotros que vivimos en otras partes del mundo comprender a estas naciones.
Es claro el odio que existe en israel hacia Hamás.. y eso se comprende. Lo que no se comprende en mi punto de vista, es por que el pueblo palestino tiene que pagar, por las acciones de hamás.
Pienso que las instituciones- los entes internacionales pueden ayudar mucho en la busqueda del cese al fuego en Gaza… Pero nos preguntamos, sera que realmente ellos quieren que la guerra acabe y comience una etapa de Paz? Sera que realmente quieren un Medio Oriente sin conflicto?… Es absurdo cuando vemos que el Gobierno Estadounidence pide un cese al fuego en Gaza… y donde dejamos a Irak?
Creo que este tema es muy complejo, por que mas alla de las culpas que puedan tener cada nacion, internacionalmente hay muchos culpable o complices nose como lo quieran ver. Y repito los entes internacionales son parte de ese granito de arena para que pueda comenzar el cese al fuego en Gaza, para que pueda comenzar la paz en el Medio Oriente, la cosa es que realmente hagan su trabajo y no se conviertan en un complices mas al fortalecimiento del odio en estos países.
Isabella Pacheco
Encargada de Asuntos Internacionales
de la Federacion de Centros Universitarios UCV
Caracas, Venezuela
0058-04141381155 – BB_PIN 2538132F
“No country wants to openly collaborate with Israel in maintaining the siege on Gaza’s people.”
Sadly, the US and the EU members states have thus far done so with little obvious discomfort.
If Helena is correct, the Israeli cabinet (Olmert, Livni, and Barak) are facing a catastrophic problem in the runup to the elections.
If they end up negotiating with Hamas without any ironclad way to stop future rocket attacks, then they tacitly admit the failure of the policy that drove the attack on Gaza. I see no way for Ehud to be able to convince the Israeli public that he has definitively destroyed Hamas’ ability to launch rockets. So the cabinet’s election gambit has failed, though Ehud, Livni and Olmert will try to avoid negotiations and maintain the ambiguity of the outcome until after the elections.
Prolonging the war past the election will heighten malaise inside Israel as it did during the Lebanon 2006 war, virtually guaranteeing the defeat of Labor and Kadima. And it will heighten the sense of outrage throughout the Arab world and further convince the rest of the world that Israel is indeed a rogue state, fully supported by the United States.
So it’s hard to conceive of the benefit that Ehud, Olmert and Livni envision in prolonging this fiasco. Better to declare victory now and cut their losses.
Pat Lang makes a similar point about the bankruptcy of the current Israeli policy. Of course, Israels are much more sensititive to this since they are directly effected by the outcome. It’s hard to see how the perpetrators do not get devastated in the elections. There must be a LOT of Israelis who wish they had a credible alternative besides Likud!
http://turcopolier.typepad.com/sic_semper_tyrannis/2009/01/questions-on-ga.html#comments
Helena, that was an excellent analysis, the best.
It’s hubris that will bring down the Theocracy.
To Isabella, How can you be responsible for the foreign contacts at your university and not know English? You are asking why the Palestinian population is paying the price for the actions of Hamas. How did you arrive at such an Israeli-inspired propaganda idea? The Palestinian people are paying the price for the actions of the Israeli state. If the Americans were to bomb your university, as the Israelis have bombed many Gaza schools, and kill a good number of your students, would you blame Hugo Chavez?
You further claim that the Palestinian situation is a complex one. It is not. It is about occupation. If the United Fruit Company expropriated your ancestral farmland, and you resisted, is that a complex issue?
Talk to Hugo Chavez. I think you are a plant, and I don’t mean a bush.
Helena, that was an excellent analysis, the best.
It’s hubris that will bring down the Theocracy.
To Isabella, How can you be responsible for the foreign contacts at your university and not know English? You are asking why the Palestinian population is paying the price for the actions of Hamas. How did you arrive at such an Israeli-inspired propaganda idea? The Palestinian people are paying the price for the actions of the Israeli state. If the Americans were to bomb your university, as the Israelis have bombed many Gaza schools, and kill a good number of your students, would you blame Hugo Chavez?
You further claim that the Palestinian situation is a complex one. It is not. It is about occupation. If the United Fruit Company expropriated your ancestral farmland, and you resisted, is that a complex issue?
Talk to Hugo Chavez. I think you are a plant, and I don’t mean a bush.
Isabella Pacheco raises a very legitimate question: does the international community really want peace in the Middle East?
And yes, the remaining members of the Quartet, if they cared even a bit serious about peace, could stop hiding behind the skirts of the United States and actually establish a powerful, independent voice demanding a cease fire. Their silence and complicity with Israeli aggression makes it seem like they have a vested interest in prolonging Israeli actions specifically and the War on Terror in general.
For without terrorism and the cover it provides, what rationale would exist for America to pursue its military expansion into the oil and gas producing regions of the world? (For some reason, it’s easier for the United States to preside over the deaths of millions (and for Europe and Japan to quietly acquiesce) than for them to declare their true ambitions.)
It’s pretty obvious to anyone specializing in foreign affairs in Venezuela, a major target.
Dream on, Helena. Do you really think that PEACE IS possible? Yeah right. And then it us who are told by fascist rationalizers of their support for the policies which spur these actors-that we like it this way.
Do I VOMIT NOW?
Kassandra
Lo que no se comprende en mi punto de vista, es por que el pueblo palestino tiene que pagar, por las acciones de hamás.
I think the translation of this sentence is
That which is not understood, in my point of view is why the Palestinian people have to pay the price of the actions of Hamas. (ie why are the Israelis taking it out on the Palestininans)
I think Isabella is making a very valid point in asking if the US really wants peace in the Middle East.
Isabella is quite entitled to post in Castellano so she is quite sure that she knows what it is she has said.
Be a good girl and reread what she wrote carefully and see if you go the wrong end of the stick.
Muy Senora Pacheco
Bienvenido en Just World News.
Estoy de acuerdo con Vd que la situacion in el Medio Oriente es muy complicado con mucho de historia, del religion, y del miedo. Hay mucho conflicto en las derechas de esta situacion.
Es dificil a comprender como piensa una mujer, que su abuela murio en Auschwitz con miedo de un enemigo frez nuevo y es dificil a comprender como piensa un hombre que sus abuelos pierden su granja hace cinquante anos y que lo falta la esperanza.
Teine Vd toda la razon que los entes internacionales deben acabar a hacer el cese fuego sin dilacion.
Estoy muy alegre a ver los hombres y mujeres de America Latino que preocuprse del situacion del pobre herido y astuciza pueblo de Gaza, victimes del geopolitico tonto y loco.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/article5438725.ece
‘infantry (and air and naval) actions’
I’m not a military expert, but my understanding is that so far the IDF ground incursion is cavalry (i.e., mounted), not boots-on-the-ground infantry. But if they stay much longer, many of them presumably will have to dismount. At that point, they will expose themselves to a much higher risk of casualties at the hands of dug-in Hamas rank and file, many of whom are apparently seeking martyrdom.
“dug-in Hamas rank and file, many of whom are apparently seeking martyrdom.”
Seeking martyrdom, or defending themselves, their land, and the people in it?
Why make this assumption, and why repeat this stereotype?
News reports say that Gaza city is now cut off.
The Israelis havent deployed enough troops to take a city the size of Gaza so they will now simply prevent food getting in.
In a siege the fighting men take priority for food and water so we will now hear intermittently about the women and children starving. (Read about Vercingetorix or Leningrad)
The reports also say (see Laila’s latest) that the phone network is going down. The mobile network was wrecked yesterday.
Fifteen days to Obama’s inauguration so it is time for a ceasefire. We won’t be allowed to see the photographs of the children who starve to death in the next two weeks.
‘Seeking martyrdom, or defending themselves, their land, and the people in it?’
Those are not inconsistent goals.
They say that a motivated soldier with a rifle is still one of the most effective military assets. How much more so a shaheed?
The suicide bomber is usually discussed in the SCLM in the dismissive context of moral condemnation. The military value is rarely addressed.
There was a similar phenomenon in the Haitian Revolution. Slavery there was so brutal, and life expectancy so short, that the slave ranks had to be constantly replenished, with the result that a high percentage of the slave populace was born in Africa. Supposedly, the followers of Toussaint and Dessalines were inspired by the belief that if they died in combat they would wake up in Africa.
The colonialists lost that one.
Helena
Should not his blog be renamed UNJUST WORLD NEWS?
The idea that we are moving towards a more just world is nothing more than wishful thinking. Things probably will get much worse before they get better IMHO.
Should not this blog be renamed UNJUST WORLD NEWS?
The idea that we are moving towards a more just world is nothing more than wishful thinking IMHO.
Should not this blog be renamed UNJUST WORLD NEWS?
The idea that we are moving towards a more just world is nothing more than wishful thinking IMHO.
Well, Watson, then why do you repeat the stereotype that it is all about “seeking martyrdom” without even mentioning the not inconsequential reality that they are “dug in” in order to defend themselves, their land, and the people in it from a horrific invasion?
And by the way, what is your evidence that their motive is martyrdom as opposed to simple self-defense?
With respect, Shirin, I meant no offense, and I think that you are objecting to things that I didn’t say. I wasn’t conflating Palestinians with Hamas, or saying that Hamas is a monolith, and I’m certainly not advocating ‘let’s you and them fight’.
Asad Abu Khalil posted something similar yesterday:
‘I have to admit this: from the military perspective, having seen and compared the performance of leftist fighters in Lebanon and the present-day Islamic fundamentalist fighters (no matter the outcome of the Israeli attack on Gaza), I have to make this painful confession as an atheist: that religion is a more effective military motivator than Marx and Lenin.’ http://angryarab.blogspot.com/2009/01/confession.html
NO CHANCE OF A NEGOTIATED CEASE FIRE– HERE
S WHY ALL ARE STUCK: Olmert is blackmailed with a jail term and Livni by a Rabbinate that is now strong enough to nix a woman as Prime Minister. So she tries to show that she is as much of a cold blooded killer as Netanyahu pretends to be– he really is not but thinks that’s what makes for Likud leadership. Barak is making up for his “Mr. Softy” reputation from the Tabba Peace Plan 2000 Days. All in all, all four are shouting to Israeli voters: “Hey, look at me, I’m as much of a killer as you think the other candidate is!” For votes, they are butchering Palestinians…wow!
In the meantime, Israel borrowed a page from the Germans, repeating their surrounding of the Warsaw Ghetto at the start of WW II, wiping it out when some locals resisted claiming that it was an issue of Polish safety. Bush shows what Katrina taught us about him: that he is a chicken UNdecider, afraid of responsibility and listening to anyone whom he could later use as a scapegoat. But now there are no scapegoats left, all writing “tell all” books that will permanently soil his place in history. Now he speaks for the IDF, knowing that the Saudis will be forced to ask Israel to provide a nuclear umbrella when Iran gets its puny atomic bomb.2009 has started with a lesson: it pays to borrow a page from Germany 1939 in 2009 if you want to expand your lebensraum. Israel, however, is expanding the land for non-existent settlers; per Dept. of State, 78% of the housing units Israel built at US taxpayers expense on land seized from Palestinians are EMPTY– no olims ready to move to Israel and its young are moving to LA!So, is Israel engaged in “ethnic cleansing”? If you don’t think so, look into its historic ties with apartheid South Africa, learning how to squeeze the blacks into bantustans…. But Israel wants to keep squeezing until the Palestinians disappear; for it welcomes global anti-Semitism in hope that all Diaspora Jews will be forced to make a giant aliyah into empty settlements and high taxes. As Sharon said in 2002: “All Diaspora Jews that don’t move to Israel by 2020 will be damned and will lose their Jewish souls.” Time’s running short. And if you’re a girl desperate to become Prime Minister in a “men only” post, as declared by the rabbis, you can only hide your gender in blood– prefably Arab blood. One can only wonder how “Greater Israel” will make it as a fetus of a state once the great American $$$placenta dries up because people will think: “better use the money for our economy than for Israel’s Lebensraum economy!”
Helena analyses Israel’s default position very well, with one exception.
Her analysis is right to the extent that Israel is not conducting this war with the aim of restoring Fatah rule to Gaza. It suits Israel very well to have Palestine permanently divided. Israel’s interests have and always will be in the West Bank; Gaza is no threat to the jewish state.
And, unlike me, Israel doesn’t care if Gaza inhabitants are subjected to sharia law, or if they can’t exit to Egypt, or if they can’t exit to the West Bank, or if they suffer from closed borders and lead miserable lives as a result. That state of affairs could exist forever as far as Israel is concerned. Israel only cares for its own security and the preservation of its own state.
Gaza is a tiny strip of land, about 1 and quarter by 2 and a half miles (!) and its geography dictates that its inhabitants are virtually in a prison from which escape is all but impossible without Israeli or Egyptian permission. The rockets and smuggling of weapons are Israel’s main problems, but these can be contained by periodic Israeli invasions, bombings, assassinations, special forces actions etc. Israel goes in, delivers a set back then engages in a completely spurious ceasefire while it gathers intelligence for the next round in a couple of years. (This one appears to be a pretty major setback actually and might do for most of Obama’s third term).
And unlike the West Bank, Israel doesn’t have to occupy Gaza to meet its security needs, which is why Sharon pulled the settlers out.
Where Helena’s analysis gets woofy is in her imaginings that Khaled Meshaal can impose a ceasefire on Israel that will require Israel to lift the siege and open the borders with Israel! Dear oh dear.
Unless Israel for some reason decides to prolong this invasion to force the UN to agree to an effective peacekeeping force and bring Gaza back to the PA fold, then the Gazans are doomed to the continuation of their present fate, merrily encouraged by Hamas fans in the west like Helena.
But perhaps the Gazans all love the idea of Hamas’ sharia law? All the women will soon have a prison uniform to wear, so wardrobes will be one less thing to have to worry about. And if the Gazans prefer sharia and Hamas to the PA and an independent Paletsinian state with access to the West Bank, who are we to care? Israel certainly doesn’t.
People smuggle so many of their little hobby-horses into these discussions, don’t they? For example, Watson wants to re-write the history of slavery. For the record, the Atlantic slave trade was always based on the presumption that all the slaves would be worked to death. There was never, and could not be, any effective slave “breeding” programme at the plantation end of the system, but only, from their point of view, in Africa. That is precisely why the trade went on in the way that it did for three centuries or so. The huge scale of it, the generations of complicity in every corner of the “West”, the sheer vile atrocity of it, is difficult to behold, and I’m afraid Watson’s reversal of priorities is just another manifestation of denial.
Similarly, Watson quotes Asad Abu Khalil, the professed “atheist”, (and when it pleases him, anti-communist too) with Asad’s very stupid and ignorant remark to the effect that “religion is a more effective military motivator than Marx and Lenin.” The real followers of Marx and Lenin have no business to oppose God and be “atheists”. That would be an absurdity that not only has nothing to do with their concerns, but would actively undermine the aims of the partisans of the working class. Given more space, and more direct relevance, I could give quotes from the very same Marx and Lenin to this effect. But it is hardly necessary.
What is more to the point is the question of motivation as such. The well-known example of Vietnam can be recalled. The Vietnamese, pitifully poor, opposed what was apparently the greatest military power the world had ever seen, and defeated it. I am not about to say that this was because of their devotion to Marx and Lenin (although Marx and Lenin are indeed a great comfort and support to liberationists everywhere). But yes, morale is the most important factor in war, and it is in this most important respect that military business is connected to the rest of us.
So the sneers of the likes of bb to the effect that we are “Hamas fans” are understandable. Let us admit that whether we are Hamas or not, we are on the same side as Hamas for the moment, and we have every intention of contributing to the morale of Hamas and of all our allies against the Israeli butcher colonialists.
Likewise, on the Israeli/Imperialist side of the confrontation, there is a machinery in place for the purpose of manufacturing morale, extending the military effort rearward into the civilian world in Israel, the USA, South Africa and elsewhere. Part of this, for example, is the “Mahal” programme. You can find a description of it at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahal_(Israel) or you can go straight to Mahal’s own effective Internet “portal” at http://mahal-idf-volunteers.org/
“Since the world is now in a crisis over Gaza,”
I don’t think that the world is in any “crisis” over Gaza at all. In reality, this is a relatively minor conflict between two nations of just a few million each. There are no significant natural resources involved, no crucial trade routes, no significant territory involved, nothing of any real significance at all. The number of casualties is extremely low relative to other conflicts in the world. If the conflicts in the world over the past 60 years were ranked in terms of the number of dead and wounded, the I-P conflict wouldn’t even make the top 50, maybe not even the top 100. Total casualties on both sides are just over 10,000, which, for a 60 year period, is astonishingly low.
No, there’s no “crisis” here. Just a world that desperately wants to blame their problems on other people, and divert attention from infinitely more serious conflicts (Afghanistan, Congo, Sudan, etc. where the casualties are extremely large), and so both the Israelis and Palestinians take the rap. The Christians control the global media, most of it anyway, and don’t want to report about their much worse wars and infinitely worse atrocities, so they find other ones to report instead.
This is a MINOR conflict, in global terms. If the Palestinians were fighting anyone other than the Jews no one would say a thing. Ask the Karen in Myanmar about that.
It’s not minor. It’s crucial.
Further to Mike:
And Helena, our renowned humanist, peacemaking website host dedicated to making the world a juster place, can’t even be bothered making one, ONE, post about Zimbabwe. Indeed Zimbabwe doesn’t even rate a mention in her Topical Index.
But then Mugabe is a black, not a zionist jew or George W Bush, and apparently is entitled therefore to perpetrate depravities on his hapless citizens just as the Hamas religious crazies are doing on theirs — to the applause of their western fans. Mugabe, of course, was most beloved of Dominic’s mob back in the good old days.
bb, the bell tolls for thee.
You want to make noise about Zimbabwe, of which I fear you know very little?
So go ahead! Just do it! Don’t go badgering other people about it.
Start your own Zimbabwe Blog or Twitter. Get stuck in. If you do, we’ll surely meet again there or thereabouts, and you will have to eat your words.
Couldn’t the comments be monitored to give us peace from Trolls and the folk who forget their meds?
BB, it’s so cute when you go all self righteous.
No, Watson, with respect, my objection was precisely to what you did say and nothing more. By characterizing many of the “Hamas rank and file” as “seeking martyrdom” you feed the dehumanizing stereotype of the wild-eyed Muslim fanatic motivated solely by dreams of martyrdom, and all that stereotype entails. You enable the propaganda that Gazans in particular, Palestinians in general, and even more generally Muslims are not human beings just like “us” who are motivated overwhelmingly by the same things that motivate all other human beings, and allow them to be turned into a scary, incomprehensible, not quite normally human “other”. You discourage the development of any empathic connection that helps people to understand that subjected to the same threats and pressures they would more than likely react very much the way Palestinians, including the Hamas rank and file, react, not out of a lust for blood and death, but out of a need to survive and to maintain a sense of their own human worth and dignity.
No, Watson, with respect, my objection was precisely to what you did say and nothing more. By characterizing many of the “Hamas rank and file” as “seeking martyrdom” you feed the dehumanizing stereotype of the wild-eyed Muslim fanatic motivated solely by dreams of martyrdom, and all that stereotype entails. You enable the propaganda that Gazans in particular, Palestinians in general, and even more generally Muslims are not human beings just like “us” who are motivated overwhelmingly by the same things that motivate all other human beings, and allow them to be turned into a scary, incomprehensible, not quite normally human “other”. You discourage the development of any empathic connection that helps people to understand that subjected to the same threats and pressures they would more than likely react very much the way Palestinians, including the Hamas rank and file, react, not out of a lust for blood and death, but out of a need to survive and to maintain a sense of their own human worth and dignity.
Watson, also with respect, my objection was precisely to what you did say and nothing more. By characterizing many of the “Hamas rank and file” as “seeking martyrdom” you feed the dehumanizing stereotype of the wild-eyed Muslim fanatic motivated solely by dreams of martyrdom, and all that stereotype entails. You enable the propaganda that Gazans in particular, Palestinians in general, and even more generally Muslims are not human beings just like “us” who are motivated overwhelmingly by the same things that motivate all other human beings, and allow them to be turned into a scary, incomprehensible, not quite normally human “other”. You discourage the development of any empathic connection that helps people to understand that subjected to the same threats and pressures they would more than likely react very much the way Palestinians, including the Hamas rank and file, react, not out of a lust for blood and death, but out of a need to survive and to maintain a sense of their own human worth and dignity.
Watson, also with respect, my objection was precisely to what you did say and nothing more. By characterizing many of the “Hamas rank and file” as “seeking martyrdom” you feed the dehumanizing stereotype of the wild-eyed Muslim fanatic motivated solely by dreams of martyrdom, and all that stereotype entails. You enable the propaganda that Gazans in particular, Palestinians in general, and even more generally Muslims are not human beings just like “us” who are motivated overwhelmingly by the same things that motivate all other human beings, and allow them to be turned into a scary, incomprehensible, not quite normally human “other”. You discourage the development of any empathic connection that helps people to understand that subjected to the same threats and pressures they would more than likely react very much the way Palestinians, including the Hamas rank and file, react, not out of a lust for blood and death, but out of a need to survive and to maintain a sense of their own human worth and dignity.
Watson, also with respect, my objection was precisely to what you did say and nothing more. By characterizing many of the “Hamas rank and file” as “seeking martyrdom” you feed the dehumanizing stereotype of the wild-eyed Muslim fanatic motivated solely by dreams of martyrdom, and all that stereotype entails. You enable the propaganda that Gazans in particular, Palestinians in general, and even more generally Muslims are not human beings just like “us” who are motivated overwhelmingly by the same things that motivate all other human beings, and allow them to be turned into a scary, incomprehensible, not quite normally human “other”. You discourage the development of any empathic connection that helps people to understand that subjected to the same threats and pressures they would more than likely react very much the way Palestinians, including the Hamas rank and file, react, not out of a lust for blood and death, but out of a need to survive and to maintain a sense of their own human worth and dignity.
To Frank from Irlandi — Do keep your patronizing and sexist (do be a good girl!!) comments in the 19th Century.
You are interpreting Madam Pacheco’s comments. You say “I think . . .is asking if the US really wants peace.” You think? I take people at their word.
My native language is not English. Should I use it here?
To bb: Does the American taxpayer send three billion US dollars to Mugabwe? Aside from that fact, there isn’t much difference between Mugabwe and Olmert.
To Shirin: I agree with you re the wild-eyed Muslim just waiting to be killed. Such a colonial, orientalist view.
Every American schoolchild knows Nathan Hale’s “I regret I have but one life to give for my country” as he was being hanged. The US and no doubt Britain and France, are sprinkled with war memorials engraved “Dulce et decorum pro patria morir”, extolling the ultimate sacrifice. The West’s soldier die noble deaths, of course.
Young Lady
My native language is not English. Should I use it here?
Should you is up to you.
May you? Well “sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander” is probably an applicable principle.
And Helena, our renowned humanist, peacemaking website host dedicated to making the world a juster place, can’t even be bothered making one, ONE, post about Zimbabwe. Indeed Zimbabwe doesn’t even rate a mention in her Topical Index.
What a stupid argument, BB. So Helena can’t talk about Israel & Palestine unless she discusses all the other injustices in the world? In that case, why not also criticize her for avoiding the conflicts in Uganda & Congo, politcal repression in Uzbekistan, the drug war in Mexico, or the insurgency in Southern Thailand?
The bottom line is that it’s Helena’s blog, and she’s entitled to focus on the conflicts that interest her the most.
Peter H:
“So Helena can’t talk about Israel & Palestine unless she discusses all the other injustices in the world? In that case, why not also criticize her for avoiding the conflicts in Uganda & Congo, politcal repression in Uzbekistan, the drug war in Mexico, or the insurgency in Southern Thailand?
The bottom line is that it’s Helena’s blog, and she’s entitled to focus on the conflicts that interest her the most. ”
Not asking too much. Just a moment’s thought to these other conflicts. Perhaps even an acknowledgement they they exist? After all the blog’s title is “world” news, not “perfidious Israeli” news.
Bb, fwiw, I’ve written on the blog about numerous conflict situations around the world, not just in the Middle East– situations on which I have done some research and feel I have something to add to the discussion. But there are also numerous crises I haven’t written about. Including, right now, Sri Lanka, where the casualties have been horrendous. I feel bad about that.
As one blogger, obviously I can’t write usefully about everything.
And Frank, honestly, I do think writing “Young lady” is incredibly patronizing. Could you please avoid salutations like that? You have ZERO idea of the age of the people you’re addressing here.
How can you impose a ceasefire when neither of the combatant parties wants to stop the fighting? Hamas hasn’t requested a ceasefire. Their response has been escalation and to call for the murder of israeli children and interests worldwide. Israel doesn’t want a ceasefire because they understand that to be a return to the previous status quo where they ceased fire, and hamas continued to launch rockets daily.
Just saying that calls for a ceasefire are pointless until both combatant sides are interested in stopping the fighting.
“Hamas hasn’t requested a ceasefire.”
Yes, they have. They called for a ceasefire more than a week ago right after Israel flatly refused a ceasefire proposed by the French.
“Their response has been escalation…”
You are a comedian! Israel attacks them, killing more than 100 Palestinians in the first day, most if not all of them civilians, about 10-15% of them confirmed to be children. Israel continues to escalate their attacks day after day, till by now I believe the number they have killed is close to 600, including 20-25% children. As of today Israel has bombed two well-marked U.N. schools – schools to which they were given the coordinates, supposedly so they would know NOT to attack them (can there be any question that they intentionally attacked those schools?) – killing tens of civilians, including a large percentage of children in those schools, and you whine that Hamas has “responded by escalating”.
Tell us, Sean, do. What do you expect people to do when they are attacked? And at what point do the Palestinians have a right to defend themselves? Clearly it is different from the point at which Israelis have that right, so please spell it out for us.
“and to call for the murder of israeli children and interests worldwide.”
I have not heard of Hamas making any call for the murder of Israeli children at all, or for the murder of anyone else, let alone worldwide. Perhaps you could substantiate that claim. In the mean time, Hamas have not murdered even one child, and yet we do know that in the last ten days or so Israel has murdered well over 100 children and babies in Gaza, as well as tens if not hundreds of women. We also know that Israel has murdered several entire families – all of them gone from the earth forever.
More response to Sean:
“Israel doesn’t want a ceasefire because they understand that to be a return to the previous status quo where they ceased fire, and hamas continued to launch rockets daily.”
Once again, Sean, you are a real comedian. Unfortunately, most of us here do not consider this kind of humor amusing.
For your edification, Israel did not even keep the cease fire during the first week of the cease fire. In fact, it broke it multiple times per day, with no confirmed response from Hamas (there were three incidents of Palestinian firing during that period, one by Islamic Jihad, one by Mahmoud Abbas’s military wing, and one by Palestinians not identified as being from any group). Here is an accounting of recorded incidents in Gaza during the first week of the cease fire:
June 20, 2008
* Israeli army troops near the border east of the southern Gaza town of Rafah opened fire towards Palestinian farmers working in al-Amoor, according to U.N. sources. No injuries reported.
* Israeli troops east of el-Maghazi camp opened fire towards Palestinian farmers, according to U.N. sources. No injuries reported.
* Israeli marine vessels fired towards Palestinian fishermen west of Beit Lahiya, according U.N. sources. No injuries reported.
June 21
* Israeli marine vessels opened fire at Palestinian fishing boats west of Beit Lahiya, according to U.N. sources. No injuries reported.
* Israeli troops at the border north east of the el-Maghazi camp opened fire towards Palestinian farmers, according to U.N. sources. No injuries reported.
June 23
* Palestinians fired a mortar shell into southern Israel from the Gaza Strip, according to the Israeli army. No one hurt.
* Israeli troops near the border north-west of Beit Lahiya opened fire at a group of people collecting wood, seriously wounding a 70-year-old man, according to U.N. sources.
June 24
* Islamic Jihad militants fired rockets into southern Israel, the militant group and the Israeli army said. No casualties. The rocket fire followed Israel’s killing of two Palestinians in the occupied West Bank, an area not covered by the ceasefire.
June 25
* Israeli troops east of Rafah opened fire toward farmers, according U.N. sources. No injuries reported.
* Israeli troops stationed near Khan Younis opened fire towards Palestinian farmers. An 82-year-old farmer was seriously injured, according to U.N. sources.
June 26
* Al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigades, a militant group belonging to Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas’s Fatah faction, fired one rocket into southern Israel, the group and the Israeli army said.
That’s how Israel kept the cease fire in the first week.
Now, Sean, if you like I can provide for you some charts copied and pasted from the Israeli government’s own website showing that Hamas DID keep the cease fire very well during the first five months or so of the cease fire.
Israel, on the contrary, broke it significantly on November 4 while the rest of the world was focused on the U.S. elections, and would not notice much. During that unprovoked attack, Israel murdered six Palestinians, and in the following three days they murdered a total of approximately 25 Palestinians. It was only at this point that Hamas resumed firing.
So, I ask you again, Sean, at what point to Palestinians have a right to fight back and defend themselves when they are attacked?
PS Sean, I neglected entirely to mention the fact that Israel not only violated the ceasefire multiple times right from the first day, it broke its agreement under the cease fire to lift the siege on Gaza – a siege that some human rights authorities have called genocidal. My bad on that, Sean.
In fact, Israel not only did not lift the siege as it had agreed as its part in the cease fire, it actually tightened it during that period. And all this while Hamas held its fire even in the face of Israeli provocation.
I wonder why the Hamas didn’t shot rocket on Egypt to convince them to open the border between them.
Israel have all the right to close her border for a hostile regime. If the Hamas don’t like it he have to change his ways
http://english.aljazeera.net/news/middleeast/2008/11/200811552712929223.html
More than 35 rockets have been fired from the Gaza Strip into southern Israel, according to news agency Reuters.
Israeli police reported “massive” rocket fire from the Hamas-governed Palestinian territory on Wednesday morning.
A police spokesman said there were no injuries or damage.
The rocket fire came just hours after six Palestinians were killed in the first clash between Israeli troops and Hamas fighters since a truce was declared in June.
Three other people were injured in the incident late on Tuesday, which involved an Israeli air strike.
Israeli border troops and Hamas fighters fired at each other after the soldiers moved to destroy “a tunnel aimed at abducting soldiers” about 300m inside Gaza.
Here I have the facts for you just in case if you had a problem with what the truth is, hopefully you can agree that Aljazeera is not on the side of Israel. The truth is they got into firefight on the boarder. The air strike followed after the firefight was over. This was only to destroy the tunnel. As far as the blockade is concerned the last time I checked the US boarder patrol do random searches of vehicles using dogs to sniff for weapons, drugs etc… So the fact that a Gazian just can cross the boarder and get into Israel is not a blockade. There are immigration laws and procedures for reasons. Mexicans just can not walk across the boarder in the US. The blockade was on weapons only, that both Egypt and Israel shared. You really need to get your facts straight just because you hate Jews does not mean that they are the reason for all the problems in the world. You might think that the innocent Palestinians you are talking about might have something to do with it. They voted for Hamas, you get what you pay for. I’m sorry they knew what they were getting into. Unfortunately most people don’t know that they picked Hamas because they were tired of Fatah’s corruption. After all Arafat stole 12 billion dollars from the Palestinians. His wife still today receives 20 million dollars a year while the people that he represented are starving to death. Fight the real battle do not let your hatred cloud your mind. Stay open and process the reality. Force the PA to stop paying Arafat’s wife and build up schools, hospitals, parks, stores, life. The day Muslims love there children more then they hat Jews is the day there will be peace.
Just because you lost a firefight does not mean you did not start it. Israel has the right to defend her people. Just as much as any other sovereign nation. The only hope for peace is that Israel destroys Hamas the Palestinians put back Abbas and order and prosperity follow. Only then will peace come. A boarder will be made like any other country. A boarder will be created and on one side the Palestinians will have the opportunity to succeed or fail under there own power. Let us give them this opportunity. Unfortunately they have already created a constitution which creates yet another Arab theocracy. One that abuses woman, handicapped, gays and human rights. But I’m glad that we support this “Just” country and welcome yet another atrocity to the world.