Today, Rep. Rahm Emanuel, who will be Barack Obama’s chief of staff in the White House, called up the president of the Arab-American Anti-Discrimination Committee (ADC), former Congresswoman Mary Rose Oakar, and apologized for the racist, anti-Arab remarks his father made when his appointment to the future Obama White House was announced. (HT: Bob Spencer.)
The ADC’s website tells us that,
- In the phone call, Congressman Emanuel said, “From the fullness of my heart, I personally apologize on behalf of my family and me. These are not the values upon which I was raised or those of my family.” During the phone call, Emanuel added, it is unacceptable to make remarks such as these against any ethnic or religious group.
Well, let’s hope he was not raised on anti-Arab values, though his father’s long history in the terrorist Irgun movement makes it quite possible that he was.
Still, the apology is extremely welcome. It gives acknowledgment that Emanuel’s father’s remarks were indeed offensive and quite inappropriate– something that some commenters here at JWN had tried to disprove.
Kudos to ADC for having raised the issue directly with Rahm Emanuel (with a ‘cc’ copy to Barack Obama, too.)
Let’s hope this whole incident, occurring at such a seminal point in the formation of Obama’s governing team, has succeeded in raising the awareness of everyone in the incoming administration to the wide incidence of anti-Arab racism in many portions of American society; to the need to include in the highest reaches of the US government representatives of all the ethnicities that make up the American melting point, including Arab-Americans– and to the fact that the United States’ national interests are not, indeed, always co-terminous with those of whatever government happens to be in power at any given point in Rahm Emanuel’s father’s homeland, Israel.
I’d just like to make one final point here– concerning the mainstream media in the US. I have found no call in any mainstream publication, prior to today, for Rahm Emanuel to distance himself in any way from his father’s horrible utterance. Just imagine how different the situation would have been if the father of a non-Jewish chief of staff had, on learning of his son’s appointment, made some equally hateful and derogatory statement about Jews. The New York Times editorial page– and all other major media in the US– would have been abuzz with the issue!
But an expression of anti-Arab racism gets nothing like the same treatment. In fact it is only today, after Rahm Emanuel did the right thing, that the US MSM have paid any real attention to the issue at all…
“These are not the values upon which I was raised or those of my family.”
Demonstrably untrue. Clearly those ARE the values of his family, and therefore almost certainly they are the values upon which he was raised. That does not mean they are the values he holds, of course, but based on his own words, they are obviously his father’s values.
This must have drawn the attention of Barack Obama himself. It is great that Barack, even before taking office, is establishing the right atmosphere for forward-thinking on Arab-Israeli issues.
Gee, I wonder if JES will offer an apology. Don’t hold your breath!
“Barack, even before taking office, is establishing the right atmosphere for forward-thinking on Arab-Israeli issues.”
Really? How? By rushing headlong to grovel in front of AIPAC as soon as he had the nomination in hand? By repudiating someone as mild as Rashid Khalidi? By choosing as his foreign policy advisers a veritable roster of Israel fans and former AIPAC employees? By making his very first high-level appointment a militant Zionist son of a former Irgun terrorist? By devoting virtually all his time and effort in the Holy Land pandering to Israel, spending only a cursory 45 minutes with Palestinians?
How many Arab-Americans has Obama even considered for even low-level appointments so far? How many Muslim-Americans? OK, never mind actual Arab-Americans or Muslim Americans. How about anyone whose Middle Eastern credentials are not solely connected with their all-out devotion to Israel?
Forward thinking on Arab-Israeli issues? So far it’s looking more like pandering to AIPAC and Israel.
Perhaps it does say something about Dr. Emanuel’s comments. Then again, maybe it says more about Obama’s influence in getting Rahm Emanuel to throw his own father under the bus. What it doesn’t prove, however, are any of the unsubstantiated charges that you, Helena, made either about Rahm Emanuel or his father, particularly in terms of dual citizenship, longstanding political ties, or implications of “dual loyalty”.
Isn’t it just a bit hyperbolic to refer to a simple apology for a single racist remark as throwing his father under the bus?
I stick with my earlier opinion : one should not feel the need to apologize on behalf of the remarks and actions of one’s parents (or ancestors) or siblings. One of the accomplishments of today’s society ought to be the respect for individuals to act independently of family ties or should we all plead for the re-introduction of the vendetta and honor killings ?
Perhaps you’re right Shirin. I think that my original point was that it’s just a bit hysterical to attach so much importance to the odd statement of Emanuel’s father.
I must give you credit though, Shirin. You do not appear to have been euchred by Obama as Helena and others have been.
Here’s an idea for Helena: Perhaps she should call up Uri Avneri and see if perhaps he knew Benjamin Emanuel back in the good old days when both were in the Irgun to get an inside scoop on his “racist” tendencies.
Lately, I have been remembering something that my mentor of years ago once told me. He was a brave and successful civil rights organizer in Southside Virginia. He said something to the effect that he doesn’t care who gets elected because none of them will do what’s right unless we force them to do it.
If we do not seriously push and pull (sometimes, you can’t push a string), then, AIPAC and others similar groups will have an easy time.
Bob Spencer
Shirin-
I guess I should have stated “post-election, but before taking office,” in other words the current transition phase leading up to Barack’s inauguration in late January. I agree he was pandering during the campaign, and I agree it is horrible that a candidate is forced to take the positions Obama was forced to take during his campaign. However, as I understand, he was faced with the daunting challenge of getting elected when he took those positions. Post-election is a different time, and we are perhaps witnessing the more genuine spirit of the coming Obama administration. It is hugely significant that Rahm Emanuel is compelled to apologize on behalf of his Irgun-related father. Those who want to see a more even-handed American Middle East policy should remember this and hold Rahm’s feet to the fire to make sure he schedules equal time for the incoming president to spend with Palestinian and Arab and Muslim advisors, instead of monopolizing his time with Rahm’s AIPAC buddies.
JES-
You never cease to amaze, but your credibility is in a state of irrecoverable deflation. I guess Baron Van Loon has taken you off the hook for offering that apology, but you are a spent force. Drawing Irgun-parallels with Uri Avneri is another one of your false lines of analysis. I wonder if Uri Avneri would make the kind of statement that Rahmbo’s father made last week. No, so one could conclude that Uri has successfully made the positive personal transformation that Rahmbo’s father (and yourself) do not have the personal integrity to make. Rahmbo himself is still a big question mark, but at least his feet are beginning to feel the heat.
I have never understood, nor will I understand the logic of ‘how many of this and that ethnic group, sex, national origin, race has been considered for appointment to the administration.
Show me the highest qualified people in every job, and see where they rate. This was Hannity’s thing asking about how many black cabinet members Clinton had appointed, pointing to Rice and Powell.
race, sex, national origin should not be a consideration.
@ Sharin: My father is a virulently anti-Arab/anti-Muslim racist. You could argue that I was raised that way but I wasn’t. I’m horrified by my father’s opinions, do not share them, and routinely castigate him for them.
I defended Mel Gibson from my father on the same count — until we’d actually heard about his drunken, bigoted rant, I chose not to tar him with the same brush as his obviously bigoted, hateful father. Now of course we know different.
Until you hear a single racist utterance from Rahm’s lips, it’s your obligation to keep an open mind and not to automatically assume he’s lying or that he’s hiding something. Some people just happen to have defective parents whose opinions don’t mirror their own.
You never cease to amaze me SD. Uri Avneri’s past is quite relevant, unless you can demonstrate a pattern of “racist” pronouncements, and a history of right-wing activities made by Dr. Emanuel during the past 65 years or so. I haven’t seen anything presented to substantiate the implied charges of “unrepentent terrorist”, apart from one questionable statement, that you and Helena have made here.
As far as my own “personal transformation”, okay. Show me one “racist” statement I’ve made here.
Let me just reprise what I initially posted here:
I think that it is quite presumptutous on your part to interpret Dr. Emanuel’s quoted remarks as “racist”. In fact, the quote you cite in the Jerusalem Post was mistranslated from the original Hebrew in which Dr. Emanual says: “It’s clear that he will influence the President to be pro-Israel. Why shouldn’t he [Ram] do that [influence the President]. What is he, an Arab? He’s not going to clean floors at the White House [i.e. his job is an influential one].” I don’t think that that is prima facie a racist statement, and it certainly does not justify your tirade on “provincial-minded Jewish Israelis”. Further, I haven’t seen anywhere where either the elder Emanuel or his son have been associated with, what you call, “Likud/Irgun circles” for decades. Dr. Emanuel was a member of the Irgun. So what? Uri Avneri was a member of Lehi back in the 1940s, but he hasn’t held those views for the past 60 years.
(Note: I mistakenly said that Avneri was a member of Lehi. It should have been IZL.)
R. Emanuel apologizes
Jerusalem and Babylon
“Just imagine how different the situation would have been if the father of a non-Jewish chief of staff had, on learning of his son’s appointment, made some equally hateful and derogatory statement about Jews. The New York Times editorial page– and all other major media in the US– would have been abuzz with the issue!”
So true! Let us hope that Barack does the right thing here and looks, I mean really looks, closely at the Israeli governments policies and realizes that they are a large part of why America is seen as the number one terrorist in the world. Obama inspires many to believe that America may have a chance at even handed dealings with Arabs and the world as a whole, but if he does the same regarding Israel as the past presidents then he is either not who he says he is or Israel holds special powers to rewire the minds of US presidents…
“I have never understood, nor will I understand the logic of ‘how many of this and that ethnic group, sex, national origin, race has been considered for appointment to the administration.”
Can you understand the desire to see at least some balance within the group that will determine policies regarding the Middle East, including the Palestinian/Israel question? You do not see a problem with the fact that Clinton’s negotiating team was filled with people known to be strong advocates for Israel, and did not have one single person on it who understood the Palestinian point of view from anything but an American/Israeli perspective?
SpinyNorman,
Please reread carefully my first comment on this page. It is brief, so please do not skip any part of it.
Shirin — I am going to have to disagree with you when you say that; because his family is one way that obviously means he is too. I love my family very much but my grandfather is racist. My mother is very conservative. A lot of family including my husband believes being gay is a sin and that they have a choice. They are god loving people with whom I could not disagree more. I have the exact opposite beliefs that they do. Just because a family, spouse or best friend believe one way, does not mean they do.
JES, many if not most of us do not consider Emanuel’s father’s clearly racist remark to be an “odd comment” at all, but rather quite revelatory of a rather typical kind of Israeli attitude toward Arabs.
I have never entertained any illusions about Barack Obama, particularly in regards to what his policies is likely to be toward the Arab and Muslim worlds in general, and Iraq, Iran, Palestine, Afghanistan, and Pakistan in particular. I will, therefore, never be disappointed, and anything positive will come as a happy surprise.
The difference between Uri Avnery and Benjamin Emanuel is that Avneri has repented over and repudiated his terrorist past and devoted his life to working to expose and remedy the wrongs. Benajmine Emanuel appears, on the other hand, to be an unrepentant terrorist.
“I am going to have to disagree with you when you say that; because his family is one way that obviously means he is too.”
Please reread carefully what I wrote. Obviously, I did not say that. On the contrary I made it explicitly clear that this was not what I was saying.
His statement that these are not his family’s values or the values he was raised with is, however, demonstrably false.
“It is hugely significant that Rahm Emanuel is compelled to apologize on behalf of his Irgun-related father.”
If this is the only thing, or even the most significant thing you can point to post-election/pre -inauguration, then I remain completely unimpressed and unencouraged.
Show me something real.
Alas, it will always boil down to:
On the one hand, the Palestinians and the arab public will never give up their right of return to Israel; on the other hand Israel will never agree. The Palestinians want to reverse 1948; the Israelis will never give up their jewish state (even Uri Avnery)
Can President Obama persuade the Palestinians to give up their claim? Unlikely. Can he persuade Israel to give in? Also unlikely.
Result: status quo will remain and Obama will get on with other business for the next 8 years.
Woooo JES, How about spending the same amount of effort on the fine points of Ahmedinejad’s mis-translated statements that you’ve spent on the “mistranslated” statements of ex-Irgun Old Man Emanuel? And as you say, Dr. Emanuel was in the Irgun “So what”, I agree, Dr. Goebbels was in the Gestapo, “So what”?
Shirin-
We are 10 days past the election, and they say the Obama camp is leak-proof. Thus it is hard to judge where things are headed. Sorry I can’t offer more at this time.
Nonetheless I see lots of hints that real progressive change is on the agenda with the President-elect, especially in the field of diplomacy. I think the foreign policy and national security teams that he will organize are going to be packed with experienced people who know how to correct course, and hopefully do the things that should have been done at that moment after the Cold War.
I think Barack will be a leader who defines the 21st century, not according to the same old ideas of the past century where the world is shaded black and white, and the leaders of countries are caricatured as heroes and villains in a Hollywood movie, or according to the superstitions of false religion about the forces of Good and Evil. Obviously we must be realistic. There is no “Brave New World,” and there are bound to be limitations of what can be accomplished. But after the last eight years, all roads lead up because Bush and Cheney dug the world a ditch.
I believe Obama is going to surround himself with mature serious thinkers who will subscribe to his own view that leaders of countries must begin dialogues about responsible and healthful governance. That is the only way forward for humanity on a fragile planet. There is no longer a place in government for immature ideologues like the neocons who sprouted as fantasia brainchildren from the sterile western philosophies of writers like Ayn Rand and Leo Strauss.
The 20th century, America’s century, turned out to be a dead-end. The future is green! Grow, baby, grow!
JES-
You are incapable of reasonable analysis and argument. If Rahmbo Emanuel recognizes the racist content of his own father’s statement, yet you continue to think the same statement is not racist, then please pause for a moment and take a deep breath … now try to think what this implies about your own thought processes.
You say that you once lived in the US. At that time you perhaps had a reasonable and fair outlook on the world. Could it be that you have been living in Israel too long? Perhaps you can’t see what is wrong with the statement by Rahmbo’s father because you have lost your reasonable and fair outlook on the world. By chance do you hang out with an Israeli crowd that commonly refers to “Arab work” when speaking about the activities of the manual day laborers who sweat building and maintaining your country’s infrastructure?
Remember how there were people in the US before you left, way back in the 1950s, who made similar chauvinist statements about the American underclass. Remember how those people were identified as racist chauvinists? You may be surprised to learn this, but you are among Israel’s racist chauvinists if you think and speak like Rahmbo’s father and can’t understand what is wrong with it. Either that, or you are simply incapable of following a reasonable line of analysis because you like to screw around as a Hasbarista propagandist for Israel.
So — HOW to we get Obama to read Juan Cole. (and Helena, and warandpiece, etc.) but PARTICULARLY Juan Cole. How do we get through the israeli firewall?
Any ideas? Can we just send all the articles to change.gov? Paste them in the comments and agenda?
Print them out and slip them under the door? We need to get juancole on the obamabloggroll, assuming it exists.
HOW do we get OBama to read juan cole? Paste it into change.gov? the agenda page? twitter it? He’s a MAC user. How do we get past the Israeli firewall? Of course he should read laura and helena too – but juan cole is essential. Any ideas?
So, Sd, in other words, you have a lot of hope, but no real evidence that Obama “is establishing the right atmosphere for forward-thinking on Arab-Israeli issues”. Well, I hope you are right, but so far all the evidence I have seen points in another direction.
For a more realistic view of the direction Obama is headed, I recommend you read this far more realistic look by Tom Englehardt at the direction in which Obama is headed.
Well, Terry, Juan Cole is not the be-all and end-all on the Middle East. Do not forget that he supported the aggression against Iraq at least in part because, it seems, he thought it would be “good for the Shi`as”. And although he has gotten much better on Iraq over time, he got a lot of very important things very, very wrong for years. Being well informed does not guarantee that a person will come to the right conclusions.
Having said that, he posted an excellent piece on the latest Israeli atrocities in Gaza – blocking food for god’s sake! Starving children as punishment – for what? What did those children do to deserve to be denied food? And where is the outcry from the world.
And Sd, where is the condemnation from Obama of this crime against humanity? Do you think he is unaware of it?
First of all Shirin, the fact that you and “many others” see this as “typical” is your problem and results from stereotypes derived from your own prejudices. (BTW, the vast majority of people mopping floors today in Israel are middle-aged, college educated Russians.)
By the “odd comment” I meant that you have two data points here: that Benjamin Emanuel was a member of the Irgun at one time, and that he made this single questionable comment some 65 years later. I’d think that you’d need a bit more information to complete the picture, don’t you?
JES, your desperate efforts to pretend that Israeli Jews’ anti-Arab racism does not exist are falling pathetically flat.
SD, read this again, and slowly. Move your lips if you have to:
I don’t think that that is prima facie a racist statement, and it certainly does not justify your tirade on “provincial-minded Jewish Israelis”.
Do you understand what “prima facie” means? It means at first appearance. This, in and of itself does not make Benjamin Emanuel a racist. Read the reported apology:
“These are not the values upon which I was raised or those of my family.”
Can you comprehend what Rahm Emanuel is saying here? They are not the values upon which he was raised, and he was raised by both his mother and his father.
Well Terry, maybe you should have thought of that before you voted for him?
You know, with all the whining about “The Lobby” and its supposed control over the “MSM”, it occurred to me. If:
JES, your desperate efforts to pretend that Israeli Jews’ anti-Arab racism does not exist are falling pathetically flat.
Shirin, I don’t think that I “pretend” that some Israeli Jews don’t exhibit anti-Arab racism. I don’t think that I have ever stated as much or posted anything that would lead one to believe that I do.
Believe me, if this “falls flat” for you and SD, well that’s the kind of pathos that I guess I’ll just have to live with.
BTW, as I recall, you were in the process of moving to Syria. How is that going? And wasn’t part of your agenda hiring someone to do the floors?
I can no more disown him than I can disown the black community. I can no more disown him than I can my white grandmother — a woman who helped raise me, a woman who sacrificed again and again for me, a woman who loves me as much as she loves anything in this world, but a woman who once confessed her fear of black men who passed by her on the street, and who on more than one occasion has uttered racial or ethnic stereotypes that made me cringe.
Barack H. Obama
I’m not sure what relevance my plans for the future have to this discussion, but yes, JES, I was planning to move to Syria as soon as possible if McCain and his ignorant, narcissistic twit of a running mate won. Since they did not win there is less urgency, but I love Syria, and am still seriously considering making the move eventually. I plan to spend several weeks there next year to examine some of the options. Would you like to join me?
And yes, I will hire people to clean and maintain the house and garden and do the cooking just as I have people here in the United States to clean and maintain the house and garden. Do you have a problem with that?
Oh, I seem to recall you using the term “servants”? No, I don’t have a problem with that. My wife and I, of course, do all those things ourselves, with the exception of the garden (and we pay our neighbor, a Jew, to do that).
Oh, I seem to recall you using the term “servants”? No, I don’t have a problem with that. My wife and I, of course, do all those things ourselves, with the exception of the garden (and we pay our neighbor, a Jew, to do that).
Why on earth did 90% of the “MSM” not only endorse Obama, but support him so enthusiastically?
I have to agree with the sentiment. 90% of the MSM supported Obama enthusiastically, because Obama represents the Establishment and business interests (more money to the army, more soldiers to Afghanistan, more war, more aggression); in short, he represents American Power, American Dominance, and American Arrogance. That’s what the Americans voted for, so that’s what we’ll get. To be fair, Obama never pretended to represented anything else (making it always clear that he’ll support Israel to the hilt, that he will keep a garrison in Iraq, that he will expand the army, that he will expand the war in Afghanistan, and that he will “relaunch” the fight against Al Qaeda, whatever that may mean).
The idea that he was supported by small donations mainly, and not by “Big Money”, is a myth, as this fascinating article from the New York Time from last August illustrates:
From the New York Times (august 5, 2008):
While his campaign has cited its volume of small donations as a rationale for his decision to opt out of public financing for the general election, Mr. Obama has worked to build a network of big-dollar supporters from the time he began contemplating a run for the United States Senate. He tapped into well-connected people in Chicago prior to the 2004 Senate race, and once elected, set out across the country starting to cultivate some of his party’s most influential money collectors.
He courted them with the savvy of a veteran politician, through phone calls, meals and one-on-one meetings; he wrote thank-you cards and remembered birthdays; he sent them autographed copies of his book and doted on their children.
The fruits of his efforts have put Mr. Obama’s major donors on a pace that almost rivals the $147 million raised by President Bush’s network of Pioneers and Rangers in contributions of $1,000 or larger during the 2004 primary season.
New York Times, August 5
“And yes, I will hire people to clean and maintain the house and garden and do the cooking just as I have people here in the United States to clean and maintain the house and garden. Do you have a problem with that?”
Ah, Shirin. To think I used to take you seriously.
In the US are your servants low paid illegal immigrants? In Syria, will they be Iraqi refugees? Or the Syrian underclass?
Are you into exploiting the impoverished or powerless or desperate classes to cook and clean and maintain your house which you and your husband/wife/children could do for yourselves?
Unreal.
https://vintage.justworldnews.org/archives/002784.html
I will spend the month of April in the Middle East, mainly in Syria. I have decided to add the following to my agenda:
1. By a house.
2. Hire servants.
3. Instruct them to prepare the house for November occupancy.
So when do we get to see a picture of the house and its staff of servants?
It’s so hard to find good servants nowadays.
Exactly my point Menno! So why all the whining now from those here who also supported him enthusiastically?
They were counting on their interpretation of his “subtly nuanced” statements. Fools!
I have not visited Israel in a few years, but based on my experience going back to the early 1980s, and based on what I have heard Israelis say numerous times, the use of the phrase “Arab labor” with chauvinistic meaning about Palestinians as an underclass to the Uber Jews is equivalent to the old “Deep South” usage of the N-word in America.
Every Israeli understands this, just as the majority of Jewish Israelis have held grossly bigoted views about Palestinians and their culture ever since David Ben Gurion landed on those Mediterranean shores and described the rightful residents of the land as “animals haunched up on their hind legs” and Golda Meir denied the Palestinians exist.
Of course I know the meaning of prima facie, JES, and you remind me of Alan Dershowitz, a propagandist and distortionist for Israel, a total con artist, a snake oil salesman whose credibility is as low as the belly of that snake that once slithered across the earth. Everyone knows that for the Israeli father of Rahmbo Emanuel to refer to his son pushing a “pro-Israeli” agenda in the White House, as opposed to carrying out “Arab labor” mopping the floors of the White House, is the same as a White surpemacist in Alabama using the N-word. Even Rahmbo himself knows this, so he apologized. As a typical politician, though, he is lying through his teeth when he says he never grew up hearing his father express similar views.
Prima facie, one should have concluded, as everyone but you did, that Rahmbo’s father made a bigoted racist statement. If anything, it would require further investigation beyond “first glance” to determine whether or not Rahmbo’s father is actually a racist. The fact that you defended the man, and denied the fact that his statement was racist, and continue to deny it, is proof enough that you are worse than Rahmbo’s father. You are a racist chauvinist, and you live behind the Iron Wall of Israel, which for more than eighty years has crushed the lives of millions of Palestinians, deluding yourself about what a swell county you live in.
One day soon that Wall is going to fall, and equality and justice will shine on the Palestinian side, just as it shined on the side of the oppressed whose cause is just in so many other cases of history. Barack Obama is one example, and believe me he is an atypical politician. Even though he must deal with certain political realities, and he will be limited in his accomplishments, he is unlike any previous US president because he sees clearly Israel’s oppressive relation with the Palestinian people. I suspect that Rahmbo will find himself acting as a mere scheduler in the White House, while Obama’s national security team looks toward bringing justice for the Palestinian cause.
This was the one piece of US foreign policy business that should have been resolved at the end of the Cold War, but earlier administrations were hamstrung by the Lobby. Of course, the Lobby still exists and it will relentlessly pressure the Obama administration, exploiting its inside access via Rahmbo. This is why the American people who want justice for the Palestinian cause must bring continued pressure on the Obama administration, sending e-mails, making phone calls, lobbying, etc. The atmosphere has changed in the US, and there are more advocates for Palestinian justice than ever before. This seems to be especially true of vets returning from the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan who are learning the other side of the story about Middle East politics.
Hiring Iraqi refugees is a GREAT idea! Thanks so much, bb! For them that would mean a steady income, a healthy diet, a roof over their heads rent free, and the confidence and self-respect that comes from earning one’s way instead of depending on charity. And for me it would mean the good feeling of giving a leg up to people who are deeply in need and deserving of it while meeting my own need for household employees (yes, my dears, servants are employees). Two birds with one stone – nice!
And if I found a family with school-age children, so much the better. With their parents working steadily, plus free food and housing they would be able to go to school, keep up with their homework, and play instead of having to spend their days and nights on the streets trying to sell cheap packets of tissues or flimsy Chinese-made toys to help support their families.
And I would have a ready-made family at home in addition to having someone to do the work I need done. I am LOVING this more the more I think about it.
Really, bb, that is an absolutely lovely idea! Thank you so much. I don’t know why I didn’t think of it myself.
Now, as much as I love being the subject of the conversation, this is pretty far off topic, so enough about me, and back to the subject of Rahm Emanuel, his father, and Israeli anti-Arab racism.
I see, SD, so what we have here is your “expert opinion” based on… anecdotal evidence, and you can therefore declare that the term “Arab Labor” is the equivalent of the “N-word” in the Deep South. I assume, then, that you are reasonably fluent in Hebrew, and that you spent quite a bit of time observing and sampling various elements of society in Israel. So, tell me, what do you think that “Arab labor” means in Hebrew? How much time did you spend in Israel?
As for Ben Gurion’s “quote”, I think that you have slightly embellished this particular statement. The “hind legs” part exists, but I don’t find the part about “like animals” anywhere. And the context (as quoted by Benny Morris – with many ellipses) was a discussion of the issue of transfer where Ben Gurion enumerated all the reasons against transfer of the Arab population, one of which was that it would cause them to “stand on their hind legs”, a term in Hebrew which is certainly not reserved for Arabs, or “inferior” people, but one which simply means to resist vehemently. But then, you’re the expert, aren’t you. LOL.
…one should have concluded, as everyone but you did, that Rahmbo’s father made a bigoted racist statement.
Everyone????? Do you need a lesson on what the term “hyperbole” means as well? And the funny part is that, not only are there those here (on this slightly skewed forum) who expressed doubt as to whether or not the statement was bigoted and racist, but I never denied that it might have been. Please, read what I wrote again. Again, move your lips if you have to.
“[Obama] sees clearly Israel’s oppressive relation with the Palestinian people.”
Once again, Sd, you appear to be assuming happy facts that are nowhere in evidence. What have you heard or seen from Obama that supports this statement? I would be happy to know about it, because so far I have seen no indication whatsoever that he see it, or cares about it.
“…Obama’s national security team looks toward bringing justice for the Palestinian cause.”
Name one person among those Obama has gathered around him during or after the campaign, or appears inclinded to gather around him who has shown any indication at all that they give a damn about justice for the Palestinian cause.
And now it has been confirmed that Hillary Clinton has been offered the job of Secretary of State. Tell us how good THAT will be for the Palestinians given her consistent enthusiastic cheerleading of even Israel’s worst atrocities. Or, given Hillary’s fondness for military violence as a foreign policy tool, tell us how good it will be for the Iraqis, the Iranis, the Syrians, the Lebanese, the Afghans, or the Pakistanis.
Barack Obama is one example, and believe me he is an atypical politician. Even though he must deal with certain political realities, and he will be limited in his accomplishments, he is unlike any previous US president because he sees clearly Israel’s oppressive relation with the Palestinian people. I suspect that Rahmbo will find himself acting as a mere scheduler in the White House, while Obama’s national security team looks toward bringing justice for the Palestinian cause.
So, SD, do you speak with Obama on a regular basis? Perhaps you could share with us exactly where he says that “he sees clearly Israel’s oppressive relation with the Palestinian people”? Can you, perhaps, offer some quotes from the big “O”?
Let’s wait and see who comprises Obama’s national security team.
and back to the subject of Rahm Emanuel, his father, and Israeli anti-Arab racism.
Shirin, read carefully please,, Helena’s post isn’t about “Israeli anti-Arab racism.” You read that into the post, just as you seem to read it into every post, because as you’ve made clear, you don’t like Israel or Israelis very much. We get it. Very deep.
Still Rahm Emmanuel’s father doesn’t speak for a majority of Americans or Israelis, or apparently Rahm himself, so I don’t really see what you’re trying to prove with this conversation. Are you seriously saying that Israelis as a class are more racially bigoted than any other category of human being? That’s a pretty brain-dead claim. At least as dumb as saying that Arabs are born laborers.
Yes if I were Obama I would run far away from “debates” like this about the essentially nasty character of your typical Israeli.
“Shirin…you don’t like Israel or Israelis very much.”
D’ya think?
Does arguing about Shirin’s hiring practices or JES’s IQ REALLY add any insight into Israel-Palestine relations, or Obama foreign policy?…
Does arguing about Shirin’s hiring practices or JES’s IQ REALLY add any insight into Israel-Palestine relations, or Obama foreign policy?
No, and neither does deconstructing some dumb remark made by someone’s father, or yapping endlessly about “Israeli anti-Arab racism” or the converse. Can’t we discuss something substantial instead of nourishing these cliches?
On the contrary, JES, I have met and worked with a number of Israelis with whom I have shared values and interests, and whom I like and respect very much. Some of them have become friends. One of them, whose parents are from Mosul, invited me to share Passover with his family in Israel this year. Unfortunately, I had to decline.
No, Inkan, they do not, but it’s kind of fun to watch the hasbarista crowd when they get so desperate they have to divert the discussion into the personal. I do love it when it’s all about ME!
I do love it when it’s all about ME!
The only reason anyone knows about your personal life Shirin is because you tell us, and yes it is hysterical to hear about your highfalutin lifestyle, especially as you seem to be think calling someone a manual laborer is some kind of insult.
As far as personal goes, calling JES a bigot (and alluding to the “dirty souls” of Israelis as you so often do) is personal as well.
Still eager to make it all about me, eh, Vadim?
Just a couple of corrections, though:
1. Clearly I did not indicate that calling someone a manual labourer is an insult. What I and most others here find objectionable is relegating an entire class of people to manual labour based on their ethno-linguistic background. It’s kind of along the same lines as insisting that if someone is a Jew he must be a money lender.
2. I have never alluded to the “dirty souls” of Israelis. I have never, in fact, made any allusion to the souls of Israeli people. I did, on one occasion only, make a remark to the effect that the State of Israel has a dirty soul. If you choose to misinterpret someone’s remark, that is your issue, and if you don’t know the difference between a state and the people who live there, then you ought to educate yourself.
Now, seriously, although I by far the most fascinating person on earth, enough about me. How about returning to the topic. Or have you guys run out of lame arguments?
Ahhhhhhh! NOW I get it! Silly me. You guys are just envious thinking of me living some “highfalutin’ lifestyle”! Awwwww, don’t feel bad, please. It’s not all THAT highfalutin’. I know lots of people whose lifestyles are far more highfalutin’ than mine.
But I guess I really SHOULD feel just terrible about exploiting people by hiring them and paying them a decent wage to do work they have willingly made themselves available for. I think it is especially reprehensible that I sometimes resort to the terrible practice of hiring young people for odd jobs from a local program for homeless youth. SHAME on me for helping people to earn an income. SHAME!
I guess George and Laura have servants in Crawford too, so Shirin is in good company, heh, heh.
Come on Shirin, you have no legitimate reason to care about what Rahm Emmanuel’s father said, or to read quite so much into what he meant by it.
As to the dirty soul of Israel, I think it’s worse that you’re referring to an entire nation. You should be ashamed of yourself. Of course no Israeli is going to care what you say or think, since you admit thinking that his country has a dirty soul, and that racism is “a rather typical kind of Israeli attitude toward Arabs” .
Both ‘observations’ are ridiculous and sad, especially since you admit to having never set foot inside Israel once in your entire life.
It takes a special kind of arrogance to ascribe “typical kind of racist attitudes” to an entire country, without ever having visited and without speaking the language. What makes it more mind boggling is that Shirin is telling JES, an actual Israeli what beliefs “his kind” is especially likely to hold.
Shouldn’t she be asking JES if he thinks Arabs are inferior beings? Don’t you think he knows just a tiny bit better what Israelis think than she does? Or are Israelis also natural liars?
Most Israelis are delusional if they think that it will be possible to deny Palestinian national rights under an Obama administration.
Yes, I have visited Israel numerous times, spent years there, have numerous Israeli friends who tell me all about the meaning of “Arab labor” (JES, nice to know that you now think it “might be” a racist term, so that makes you only half-delusional — when will you offer a “sort of” apology).
Yes, I know all about the local Israeli and Palestinian cultures, speak a bit of Hebrew, more Arabic, know full well what Ben Gurion said about his arrival in Palestine after being carried ashore on the back of a local “native,” know Obama’s circle of friends in Chicago, lived there a time myself, understand the local politics of Obama and friends, realize that Obama is absolutely not a typical US president, despite his appointment of Rahmbo to keep his schedule of appointments in the White house.
I understand the pressure “the Lobby” brought to bear on his candidacy to distance himself from close friends in Chicago, understand that this was a political move to get elected, and that his friends understood fully, expect that Obama’s real politics have not changed, do not deny that he will continue to face pressure from “the Lobby,” heard this week that he is consulting with national security advisors in DC who are decidedly not part of “the Lobby,” so I expect Obama to puruse a more aggressive course to restore legitimate Palestinian rights.
I will not be surprised if Palestinian and Arab Americans like Prof. Rashid Khalidi are dinner guests at the White House, can’t wait to hear Obama inform Americans how the nastiness of the Lobby’s “political gotcha” campaigns in the media must stop, would not be surprised if he acts quickly in his first year to set a different climate for resolving Palestinian claims.
I consider the possibility that I am being overly optimistic about what an Obama administration will be able to accomplish in its first year, but do not really care because it is enjoyable in the meantime to imagine the possibilities, and besides I know Obama will do nothing without us setting forth these kinds of expectations and bringing our pressure to bear on his White House scheduler named Rahmbo who grew up hearing his bigoted father speak chauvinistically about Palestinians.
bb: I am sorry you are so envious of those who are able to hire people to work in their homes, but either you have not thought this through or you are being extremely disingenuous by pretending there is something immoral and exploitative about it. Are you suggesting that by hiring people and paying them to perform the services they offer at a mutually agreed-upon wage I am somehow harming them? Are you suggesting it would be more ethical and socially conscious of me to do my own house and garden work while they remained unemployed and penniless?
Gosh! And all this time I thought it was a win-win when I end up with a clean house and nice garden and they end up with money in their pockets.
Vadim:
1. There is no one, including me, who does not have a perfectly legitimate reason to care about what Rahm Emanuel’s father said.
2. You need to learn the difference between a state and a nation.
3. If no Israeli should care what I say or think why do you feel such a need to keep harping on it, and in such a dishonest way.
4. Racism against Arabs is a VERY typical Israeli attitude. In fact, one could say it is pervasive, and demonstrably so based on numerous polls and other indicators that reveal seriouly racist attitudes and practices on the part of the majority of Israeli Jews, not to mention blatantly racist policies and practices on the part of the Israeli government.
That is not the same as saying that every Israeli Jew is racist, however, no matter how determined you are to misinterpret it that way.
And now I am finished with this standard-issue desperate attempt to divert the discussion onto personal matters.
If you choose to misinterpret someone’s remark, that is your issue….
Exactly my point about Benjamin Emanueal!
Well, SD, I guess you really are the expert! No flies on you! You’ve been just about everywhere, speak all them lanuguages, and spent years in all these places to boot. Far be it for me to explain anything to you.
Here’s a little video that reminded me of you:
http://www.theonion.com/content/video/obama_win_causes_obsessive
JES, it is very difficult to misinterpret what Benjamin Emanuel said, particularly in light of the well-known meaning of the term and concept of “Arab labour” in Israel – a concept that goes back to the pre-state period. It is also difficult to misinterpret what Dr. Emanuel meant in light of the overwhelming evidence for the pervasiveness of anti-Arab racism among the majority of Israeli Jews, and the far-less-than-equal treatment Palestinian citizens of Israel receive at the hands of the government.
If Dr. Emanuel meant something other than the obvious by what he said, why hasn’t he made any effort to clarify it? Surely he would not want to be misunderstood.
So, you tell me: What is the well-known meaning of “Arab Labour” in Israel?
BTW, I don’t recall Dr. Emanuel quoted as using the term “Arab Labour”. I recall him stating:
“Obviously he’ll influence the President to be pro‐Israel. Why wouldn’t he? What is he, an Arab? He’s not going to be mopping floors at the White House.”
“What is he, an Arab? He’s not going to be mopping floors”
And you don’t see any connection between that and Arab Labour? You have to be working awfully hard at that one, JES!
And I repeat, if Dr. Emanuel meant something other than the obvious by that remark, why has he not attempted to clarify his meaning? No one likes to be misunderstood, and presumably he is not terribly unusual in that regard.
Shirin,
Don’t waste your time with JES. He is a con artist who will keep you running circles around your own logic. JES is incapable of rational argument and analysis.
When you suggest a logical idea to him, he acts like logic is the fount of illogic. If you catch him red-handed in his own lies, he looks for the closest escape hatch.
Right, JES? And of course, I have never been to all those places, and I don’t speak all those languages, because if it were true, then it would make perfectly logical sense why I know more about politics in Israel than you do living in your own country.
My purpose in having a discussion with JES is not to convince him of anything, Sd. It is something else altogether. :o}
To all who had discussion with JES remember the CAT!
If you don’t recall what that’s mean, JES behaving like Cat??
If you through the can in any position she/ he will reach the ground on four feet’s.
So don’t bother with JES any more.
Zionist / Israelis the like this endless discussions just like 60 years wasted by Arab with people who seek and overstated their case of Holocaust and they doing same acts like what they keep asking the world to treating them special, when people on their homeland are treated in ugly and horrified way like what now in Gaza, and those Arab in Haifa who lived from 1948 side by sides with those Zionists with recent Zionists gangs start bashing them on their homeland although the holding Israeli citizenship…. what democratic state is?
By the way as ME citizen to those discussed US/Israeli relation is better to consider that Israeli is the state No 52 within Untied States of America.
1. There is no one, including me, who does not have a perfectly legitimate reason to care about what Rahm Emanuel’s father said.
Oh yeah? So what is it?
2. You need to learn the difference between a state and a nation.
errr — ok so the STATE has the dirty soul? Or the NATION? Which entity has the dirty soul Shirin? How do you suppose decribing an entire state, nation, county or town as “dirty souled” adds anything productive to the discussion?
3. If no Israeli should care what I say or think why do you feel such a need to keep harping on it, and in such a dishonest way.
Because your anti-Israeli tirades distract from the topic of the post and many others.
4. Racism against Arabs is a VERY typical Israeli attitude. In fact, one could say it is pervasive
One could, and one does, especially here, again and again like a broken record. However, you’re simply never going to “prove” this is the case, no matter how many offensive quotes you go out and find on the internet. As I’m sure you know I could find no shortage of anti-Jewish rhetoric from arab sources — and not just soundbites from parents of public figures.
And now I am finished with this standard-issue desperate attempt to divert the discussion onto personal matters.
As if the prejudices held by someone’s relatives aren’t “personal matters?” Grow up!!! And stop monopolizing th discourse. You account for almost 1/3 of the posts on this overlong thread.
All very bi partisan of you, Shirin. That’s just what George and Laura would say too. The moneyed classes of the right and the left join together to employ the underclasses to do the menial work they feel is below them and bask they are doing good works by bestowing inclome on the underclass. Capitalism at its finest.
All very bi partisan of you, Shirin. That’s just what George and Laura would say too. The moneyed classes of the right and the left join together to employ the underclasses to do the menial work they feel is below them and bask they are doing good works by bestowing inclome on the underclass. Capitalism at its finest.
2. What part of my explicit statement that I was referring to the State of Israel are you having trouble understanding?
Now all you have to do is learn the difference among a state, a nation, and the individual citizens of a state. Good luck with that.
4. And what part of my statement about the evidence of Israeli Jewish racism are you having difficulty understanding? Is the the part where I point out that there are abundant polls and other well documented indicators that show without question that racism against Arabs is shared by the majority of Israeli Jews? It is the part where I point out that there are numerous specific policies and practices of the Israeli government that are racist (Google “unrecognized villages”, and “judaization galilee” just for starters)? Of course, the high degree of segregation combined with the unequal allocation of state resources and opportunity is purely coincidental, I am sure.
And of course you could take a look at the virtually unanimous experiences of Palestinian citizens of Israel both with their government and with their more equal Jewish fellow citizens, but they are just Arabs, so why would you pay attention to what they say?
As for anti-Jewish rhetoric from Arab sources, that is not acceptable at all, but it is a red herring in a discussion of anti-Arab racism on the part of Israeli Jews. Neither excuses or mitigates the other.
“As if the prejudices held by someone’s relatives aren’t “personal matters?”
In the case of a public person who holds a highly powerful and influential position in the government no, they are not personal matters at all in that they might be indicators of said powerful, influential public person’s own point of view, and how he might do his job. In this case, therefore, people are completely entitled entitled to ask questions and require explanations.
Neither excuses or mitigates the other.
Once again, this isn’t a discussion of anti-Arab racism on the part of Israeli Jews just because you’ve decided to make it one. Your entire thesis – that Israelis are “typically” bigots – beyond being divisive and unsubstantiated by experience – is a pointless red herring. Why are you trying to convince – Israelis themselves? Or are you speaking over their heads to a US audience? Your ignorant & hostile characterizations of Israeli society add nothing. Simply, JES is the only one here qualified to tell us what Israelis think. Americans like yourself have no business doing so.
In the case of a public person who holds a highly powerful and influential position in the government no, they are not personal matters at all
Benjamin Emmanuel holds no public office. And Rahm himself has disavowed the comment completely. So you’re wasting everyone’s time trying to amplify its importance.
“Rahm himself has disavowed the comment completely”
The purpose of this posting was to point out that Rahmbo did not disavow his father’s patently racist comments before being prompted by the American-Arab Anti-Discrimination Committee. The fact that Rahmbo did not disavow them on his own without prompting from an Arab organization speaks volumes about Rahmbo’s anti-Arab frame of mind. The later publicized statement he made is a set piece of words coming from the mouth of a politician which can be believed as Rahmbo’s true sentiments about as much as the words of apology issued by Mississippi Sen. Trent Lott concerning the classic American southern racist Strom Thurmond.
“JES is the only one here qualified to tell us what Israelis think.”
The idea that racists are the only ones qualified to determine what is and is not racism is laughable. Of course Israelis would not find Rahmbo’s father’s comments racist. The vast majority of Israelis, JES, Rahmbo, and Rahmbo’s father included, are accustomed to using that racist language in their daily routines. The same was true pre-1970s in the American south. And the same was true pre-1990s in apartheid South Africa. Israel is a racist country which is yet to come clean, and it will take an Obama administration to move Israel into its own “Truth and Reconciliation” process with the Palestinians.
It will be so much fun watching Rahmbo play the role of event scheduler during the next 8 years. Israelis are about to enter the adult phase of their previously immature lives. Prepare to remove the West Bank settlers. Bumpy roads ahead.
he fact that Rahmbo did not disavow them on his own without prompting from an Arab organization speaks volumes about Rahmbo’s anti-Arab frame of mind
Baloney. ‘Rahmbo’ doesn’t need to disavow them because ‘Rahmb’o didn’t speak them, which is also why the remark didn’t get more coverage.
The idea that racists are the only ones qualified to determine what is and is not racism is laughable.
Are you so arrogant as to believe you understand the Israeli mindset better than Israelis themselves? Or are your powers of inference more reliable than direct testimony?
That inference must be pretty sharp, to see the appointment of Hillary Clinton and Rahm Emmanuel as a lurch away from Israel. See anything else in that crystal ball?
Fortune telling and mind reading, do you also juggle chainsaws and eat fire?
“Once again, this isn’t a discussion of anti-Arab racism on the part of Israeli Jews…”
Gee, Vadim, then why do you keep arguing as if it were?
And why do you insist that I have based my argument merely on “going out and finding offensive quotes on the internet” when I have not cited a single offensive quote from the internet? Why do you insist upon ignoring the very real documented evidence I have cited as evidence of widespread, pervasive, and official Israeli racism against Arabs?
As you are choosing to argue dishonestly, I am going to move on now. Have fun talking to yourself.
Gee, Vadim, then why do you keep arguing as if it were?
because you keep dragging the discussion in that direction, wasting everyone’s time and Helena’s bandwidth with your ignorant and offensive generalizations. Yes, please do “move on!”
Why do you insist upon ignoring the very real documented evidence I have cited
Because I’m not interested in “disproving” the asinine thesis that Israelis are more racist by disposition than other nations, and because it’s off topic — for the ten thousandth time, Helena’s post doesn’t say anything about pervasive Jewish Israeli racism!!
Also because you have no knowledge of Israeli culture, language, history nor have you visited their country so much as once. No I think I’ll take my knowledge of Israeli opinions from Israelis and not Americans. You may be a better mind reader than Sd, but you’re still unqualified to judge anyone’s motives but your own.
Vadim,
Yes, that is exactly what I am suggesting. Scroll back a few comments, and you will see that I pointed out to JES that indeed I am a better, more objective analyst of Israel than he is because this is my profession to be a neutral observer of Middle East affairs. The fact that JES lives in Israel and is an Israeli citizen actually makes him a very poor judge of Israeli culture and politics. This is actually a straightforward point. One often finds this in scholarship about culture and society: foreign scholars make better observers and analysts because they have a neutral point of observation.
It is clear to all that JES is a biased observer of all things Israel. This has been clear for the 3-4 years that he has been commenting on Helena’s blog. JES sees his home country through distorted rose-colored lenses. He is blind to the very real racism in Israel’s political culture, just as the majority of southern Americans were once blind to the racism of the southern US states, and white South Africans were blind to the racism of South Africa.
How else could I completely dismantle JES’s opinion on Israeli politics, exposing the fundamental contradictions and hypocrisy of his ideas, every time we attempt to carry out a serious discussion on Israel-Palestine affairs, unless JES were a biased observer and my training as a scholar in Middle East politics makes me more qualified to speak on these issues? I tell you what is going to be interesting to watch over the coming years in Israel under an Obama-led US administration is how Israel will handle the reabsorption of its racist militant Jewish settlers in West Bank outposts like Hebron, once the incoming US administration begins to lower the boom on Israel’s illegal land occupation.
I wonder if Israel’s inherently racist culture and society are going to be able to handle the adjustments required once its 40+ years occupation of the West Bank comes to an end. Will Israel be able to adjust as well as America has with President-elect Obama, or South Africa has with its ANC leadership? It was hard for Israel to extract its settlers from Gaza, but how will it be able to extract the hardcore settlers from Hebron and other areas of the Biblical Judea and Samaria? Could Israeli culture implode under the weight of the ugly religious nationalist reaction that will take place in the coming decade among radical Jewish settlers? Will these radical Jewish reactionaries revolt inside the Green Line, and bring an end to Israeli democracy?
A more important question: wIll JES join the radical Jewish reactionaries in bringing about the end of Israel?
Vadim, JES, Joshua- You should be very scared confronting your own racism and prejudice to the Palestinian people. Be very scared. It is likely to shake you to the core of your being, and afterward the old you will not recognize the new and better you.
“Rahmbo did not disavow his father’s patently racist comments before being prompted by the American-Arab Anti-Discrimination Committee. The fact that Rahmbo did not disavow them on his own without prompting from an Arab organization speaks volumes about Rahmbo’s anti-Arab frame of mind.”
In all fairness to Rahm Emanuel, the fact that he did not disavow his father’s racist comment before being prompted by ADC does not really tell us anything about his frame of mind with regard to Arabs. There are a lot of perfectly understandable reasons for him to stay silent about it, and it is almost certainly Obama and his team who made the decisions as to whether and when to speak about it, and of course, what to say. So, maybe he shares his father’s racist attitudes, and maybe he does not. Nothing that has happened so far tells us anything about that.
“The later publicized statement he made is a set piece of words coming from the mouth of a politician…” and most likely carefully composed by Obama’s team. So, once again, it does not tell us anything except what Obama and his team determined would be politically wise for him to say. It does not tell us he shares his father’s sentiments, and it does not tell us that he does not.
Vadim: ““JES is the only one here qualified to tell us what Israelis think.”
That is, of course, utter rubbish. JES is the only one here qualified to tell us what JES thinks. He is not qualified to tell us what Israelis think unless he is a professional who studies such things, which it appears he is not.
“The idea that racists are the only ones qualified to determine what is and is not racism is laughable.”
You are assuming here that JES is a racist. I don’t recall seeing any clear evidence of that one way or the other, and do not think it is a fair assumption.
“Of course Israelis would not find Rahmbo’s father’s comments racist.”
On the contrary, I know for a fact that some Israelis DO find Benjamin Emanuel’s comment (there was only one comment that we know of) racist.
“The vast majority of Israelis, JES, Rahmbo, and Rahmbo’s father included, are accustomed to using that racist language in their daily routines.”
We do know based on studies and other documented information that the majority of Israelis do hold racist points of view toward Arabs, and we know that most of them practice racism in at least some areas of their lives. I do not believe we have any real basis for saying that the vast majority of ISraelis use that or any other racist language in their daily routines.
“it will take an Obama administration to move Israel into its own “Truth and Reconciliation” process with the Palestinians.”
Really? And what actual, real-life evidence have you seen that Obama has any such intentions, or even inclinations to do such a thing?
And by the way, in my view it would be far better for the United States to stay out of matter. Everything the United States has done there has ultimately resulted in a worsening of the situation, and others have shown that they are far more capable of working effectively with the parties than the U.S. has ever been.
He is not qualified to tell us what Israelis think unless he is a professional who studies such things, which it appears he is not.
Nor obviously are you! Whoops!
Actually the bst way to find out what Israelis think is to …guess what?… TALK TO ISRAELIS!! Not accredited scientists like Sd, who seems to think that Hillary Clinton’s appointment as SecState heralds a decisive change in US-Israeli relations.
Talking to Israelis is the best way to get anecdotal information about what those particular Israelis SAY they think. It is not even a particularly good way to get accurate anecdotal information about what they actually think. It is far from the best way to get information about what the majority of Israelis think, or what the trends are in Israeli thinking.
The best way to get information about the attitudes, beliefs, and practices of the majority of Israelis, and what the trends are in their attitudes, beliefs, and practices, is to conduct studies of their attitudes, beliefs, and practices.
Recent studies show that the majority of Israelis still have racist attitudes, beliefs, and practices in relation to Arabs, including their own “equal” (NOT!) non-Jewish Palestinian citizens. Other documentary evidence uncovers numerous official and unofficial racist policies and practices on the part of the Israeli government and its officials, agencies, and employees.
It is not even a particularly good way to get accurate anecdotal information about what they actually think
Because Israelis aren’t only bigoted, they also lie through their teeth. Which is why it is pointless to explain any of their scientifically proven thoughts and motivations to them, as revealed by various Google search terms.
is to conduct studies of their attitudes, beliefs, and practices…
…from the security of outer space, so as to keep the study scientific and objective. “No Israelis were interviewed for this study” … mmyesss, clearly Shirin you have some formal academic training eh?
David Grossman writes in his new book “Writing in the Dark” (Farrar, Staus and Giroux) that he is appalled by “Israel’s remarkably rapid decline into coldness and real cruelty toward the weak, the poor, and the suffering [and}…deep-seated, institutionalized racism towards the Arab minority.”
Are permitted to consider his opinion as possibly valid?
First of all, I do not purport to speak for all Israelis. My original point, and I cannot stress this too strongly, is that it was wrong of Helena to take off on Rahm Emanuel’s father based on two disparate points of data: his membership in the Irgun 60 years ago, and his questionable statement in a telephone interview last week. I’m sorry, but those facts simply do not make him a racist. I have repeatedly asked Helena to provide evidence of her assertions that he has a history of racism, that he has travelled in “Irgun/Likud” circles for decades or that his son is a dual citizen. I think that this would greatly clarify matters if she or someone else here could provide such evidence. Instead, we have been treated to generalizations that the “vast majority of Israelis are accustomed to that racist language in their daily lives” coupled with personal smears against me.
I don’t claim to be a “scholar in Middle East politics”, but you do. So, why don’t you edify us with your unique qualifications? You claim to have visited Israel numerous times and to actually have “spent years there”. Well, how many years have you spent in Israel? And how many years does it take to speak more than a “bit of Hebrew” and a little bit more than that of Arabic? At this point, the sole evidence of your scholarly analytical capabilities based on neutral observation would appear to be your ability to make personal assaults with unfounded accusations of racism.
and we know that most of them practice racism in at least some areas of their lives.
What on earth is “practicing racism?” Is it like practicing your golf swing or more like practicing ancestor worship? I would think that studies proving the racist practices of Israelis would be hard to conduct, since there’s no “racism free” control group anywhere on the planet, least of all in the middle east. Do you inhabit such a utopia, Shirin? Have you never “practiced racism”? I do envy and admire you.
Are permitted to consider his opinion as possibly valid?
Probably not, since Grossman is an Israeli and not an accredited scientific professional. Those of us with less intellectual rigor might agree or disagree, but it should take more than Grossman’s testimony to convince us either way; my primitive logic would recommend speaking with some Israelis as well.
To the extent that the “deep-seated, institutionalized racism towards the Arab minority” exists, we have a judicial system to deal with it. To the extent that racism, as a belief, exists in the minds of individuals, as it does in all societies, we have mental health professionals.
Recent studies show that the majority of Israelis still have racist attitudes, beliefs, and practices in relation to Arabs, including their own “equal” (NOT!) non-Jewish Palestinian citizens.
Correction: Recent studies have shown a marked increase over the past 8 years in “racist” attitudes among Israelis and distrust amongst Israeli Arabs of Zionist Jews. Do you think, Shirin, that these attitudes changed in a vacuum and that they might trend the other way if and when the situation changes?
Vadim, I believe that English is your first language, therefore I am sure you know exactly what the term “practice racism” means.
Control groups are not useful or even possible in many types of scientific studies, including studies of population attitudes and practices, therefore, they are not used there. To use a recent example, using a “control group” in political polling during an election campaign makes no sense.
There are comparative studies, of course, that look at the similarities and differences among two or more populations, but the concept of a “control” is not applicable to this type of study either.
There are many, many types of studies for which the concept of a “control group” makes no sense. For example, some years ago I was part of a team doing a comparative study of learning rates in two different populations of a species of reef-dwelling arthropod. What we were trying to determine was how similar or different the learning rates were in these two populations. There was no way of designing the study with a control group, nor did it make any sense at all to do so. Even if there had been a way to define what a control group would be, it would have contributed no useful information.
Control groups are a necessary part of studies determining things like the effectiveness of drugs. They are not practical or useful in many or perhaps most types of studies.
Hopefully you now have a clearer understanding.
Yes Shirin, and that is why the social sciences are not exact. In addition, it’s important to know exactly how the question was phrased and by whom it was asked, because that can affect the respondents responses.
I recall that years ago when I was in graduate school, one of my professors related that he had carried out a study of Palestinian Arab attitudes in the West Bank. He initially used Israeli Arab students to administer the questionnaire. The responses of the subjects was far more radical than when he later used local Palestinians.
Shirin-
I do not understand the basis of your assumption that Barack Obama follows a pattern of former US presidents when it comes to issues like this one: concerning inter-ethnic relations in the international realm. Nor your assumption that if an Obama administration became involved in resolving the Israel-Palestine conflict, it would be exactly like every previous US administration.
Are you so cynical? Are you pessimistic on the progression of human history?
The fact is that Barack Obama’s outlook on issues concerning inter-ethnic relations and international relations are entirely unlike every previous US president, so you may be losing an opportunity to try to influence the Obama administration and encourage Obama to follow through on his own inclinations born of his unique outlook.
The fact is that America has long needed a president like Barack Obama to become involved in international issues like the Israel-Palestine problem. It is absurd to assume that America, as the primary supporter and aid-supplier to Israel, is not in a position to act. America is the only state that can compel the state of Israel (whether it is led by Bibi or Tzipi) to enter a “Truth and Recconciliation” process with Palestinians.
Barack Obama may have appointed Rahmbo to keep his work schedule, but that does not mean that Obama policies will follow Rahmbo’s preferences. Barack Obama happens to be close friends with Palestinian scholar Rashid Khalidi whom he describes as “opening my eyes” to critical issues in Israel-Palestine. Moreover, given Obama’s long membership in a South Chicago church which emphasized Liberation Theology and Black empowerment, it is highly unlikely that he will approach the Palestine issue in the same way that White Southern Baptist presidents like Carter and Clinton approached the issue.
You really do not understand Barack Obama-the-man if you place him in the category of former American presidents. He is a transformational break from the past, and a hopeful sign of where America is headed in the future. Of course, Rahmbo and members the Israel Lobby will try their best to prolong the status quo in Israel/Palestine under the coming administration, but all other Americans should encourage Obama to follow his inclinations and do the right thing for the sake of legitimate Palestinian national rights.
I suggest you might read Obama’s book “Dreams from My Father.”
Finally, I have had plenty of time to sample Israeli public opinion on the topic of this posting, and I can confidently say that between 65 and 75% of Israelis hold racist views toward Arabs to some degree or another. Probably 45-50% are hardened anti-Arab racists. This means that there is a minority of 25-35% who are conscious of the racism and make an effort not to practice it. If you consider that more than half of these latter percentages are the Arab-Palestinian citizens themselves who are often the victims of Israeli racism, then the percentages are skewed even further. Regardless of how one looks at this issue, the vast majority of Israelis hold racist views about Arabs. Most Israelis think Arabs are inherent liars, prone to violence, capable only of “Arab labor.” Moreover, they segregate themselves from Arab culture and society inside Israel as white segregationists once treated the Black-side of the railroad tracks in America. Not only do Israelis speak about “not going into those bad neighborhoods,” they build bridges and tunnels over and under “those neighborhoods” so they can remain within their own self-manufactured reality. Like JES, most Israelis are blinded by this reality.
A few years ago there were polls showing that nearly half of Israel’s citizens wanted Palestinian-Arabs ethnically cleansed from their country, believing that the job was left undone in 1948. So they want to go beyond their apartheid bridges, tunnels, and walls. I believe you are mistaken to assume that ONLY a bare majority of Israelis (or less) are racists. It is accurate to say the vast majority are racist about Arabs. Israel has yet to experience its post South African apartheid moment, when they will have to come to terms with their deep rooted prejudice against Arab Palestinian culture.
Vadim, Hillary is not Sec of State yet, and if she becomes the next diplomat in chief, it is unlikely she will be as bad as Maddie Albright was when it came to managing the Oslo process. She is also unlikely to forget her hubbies mistakes, and will therefore be more likely to apply greater pressure to Bibi, should he return as prime minister of Israel. Israelis would be better off with Tzipi who might cooperate with the future Obama agenda.
If you consider that more than half of these latter percentages are the Arab-Palestinian citizens themselves who are often the victims of Israeli racism, then the percentages are skewed even further.
Excuse me, but this is a load of crap! Which surveys ask Israeli Arab citizens if they hold racist views of Israeli Arab citizens? What does “Probably 45-50% are hardened anti-Arab racists” mean?
A few years ago there were polls showing that nearly half of Israel’s citizens wanted Palestinian-Arabs ethnically cleansed from their country…
But in the same survey, while Israeli Arabs, who identified themselves as Palestinians, had no problem living in the same state with Jews, but did have a problem living with Zionists. Do you see the contradiction here?
JES-
It is not worth anyone’s time to engage you in dialogue, if you do not retract your first comments on this posting, days ago, when you said that “prima facie” what Emanuel’s father said was NOT racist. It is indeed “prima facie” a racist statement by Emanuel’s father, so all of your subsequent comments must be interpreted as though you are unaware of the existence of Israeli racism.
That is what this extended dialogue is all about, and once you are caught making patently false assertions which are intentionally deceptive and distorting, you have no standing, frankly, to be demanding clarification about any other person’s comments.
Everyone knows that your credibility is zero. There is simply no validity to anything you say, unless you admit that you were wrong and that the senior Emanuel’s comments were indeed racist. Until the time you make such an admission, and offer an apology to me and Helena and everyone else on this blog because of the foul language you habitually use and the abusive treatment you regularly dish out to other commenters, I see know reason to bother reading another word you enter here.
I see know reason to bother reading another word you enter here.
We should be so lucky.
Sd, it appears to me that you are the one making apparently completely baseless assumptions about the wonders Obama is going to perform in the Middle East. As a matter of fact, what you appear to be doing in that regard is little more than wild, wishful speculation. I have asked you repeatedly to provide some real, concrete facts or information that supports your claims of what Obama is going to accomplish, and so far you have not provided a single thing. I would love to be convinced that there is reason to hope, but you’re not helping me.
My expectations of Obama, on the other hand, are based on a realistic assessment of his past record, his statements, remarks, announcements, declarations, his behaviour during his years in government as well as his choices so far as President Elect. What I have seen so far does not make me confident.
On the other hand, as I have said before, the United States’ meddling in these matters has never led anywhere but downward, so if I had anything to say about it, I would tell Obama to to stay out of it. It would be resolved a lot faster that way.
“My expectations of Obama, on the other hand, are based on a realistic assessment of his past record, his statements, remarks, announcements, declarations, his behaviour …”
So are my expectations, thus you and I are reading the man in completely different ways based on the same method.
Or perhaps you have not read his books as I have; you do not know his circle of friends in Chicago as I do; you are not aware of the significance of his friendship with Rashid Khalidi, Bill Ayers, the UCC Church in South Chicago, and its Liberation Theology as I am; and you are simply basing your expectations on his single appointment of Rahm Emanuel, as I am not.
We will agree to disagree, but as a result I will make the effort to influence Obama’s policies, while you will throw your hands up in the air and exert no influence on his administration because of misinformed cynicism.
“I would tell Obama to to stay out of it”
That would be the worst thing to tell him because currently the US underwrites Israeli military forces with more than $3 billion/year, and inaction on the part of Obama will have no effect on the budgets the US Congress will continue to pass without batting an eye.
Sd, you have not given me one single solid thing to back up your notion that Obama is so vastly different from every other U.S. president. All you give me is vague, nebulous rhetoric about him being transformational along with unsupported allegations that he was supposedly “close friends” with Rashid Khalidi (you never had a friend you did not see eye to eye with on everything?), belonged to a black liberationist church (which says exactly nothing about his views on Palestine, let alone what he will do about it in a political context), and has a view on international relations different from every other president (I guess this is why he intends to continue the imperial project in Iraq with a reconfigured occupation force, escalate military actions in Afghanistan, most likely will continue Bush’s policy of deadly attacks inside Pakistan, and thinks the U.S. has a right to dictate to Iran how it will conduct its business).
I do not base my expectations of future events on such airy fairy ideas. For me it is important to form expectations on concrete, real evidence. Therefore, I look at a person’s record of past conduct, their present conduct, their own predictions of what they will do, and the choices they have already made. Based on all that I do not expect Obama to do anything terribly dramatically transformational on the international scene, although I do expect him to work, more or less with good effect, to improve relations with Europe.
And one thing I doubt very much that Obama has or will come to terms with is the declining position of the United States in the world. Based on what I have seen and heard so far, neither he nor his administration is going to readily or easily accept the United States as a lesser power among several powerful states. For him to do so, and to gently help the citizenry accept their country’s newer, lower status, would be transformational indeed, but it’s not going to happen.
We are not by any means looking at the same things, Sd.
And by staying out of it, I do not mean that he should continue funding Israel’s death and destruction machine. However – and correct me if I am wrong – but I do not believe that funding is determined by the Presiden. In any case, I do not see Obama putting his political life on the line by cutting Israel off.
The trouble with people who have your dreamy expectations of Obama as a miraculously transformational figure is that you are setting the man up for failure. There is simply no way on earth he can meet such lofty expectations. This is not the Second Coming or the Appearance of the Mehdi. Barack Obama is a mere human being. Furthermore, he is a politician. It is a good idea to bear that in mind when setting expectations.
PS It is just plain silly, and somewhat insulting for you to assume that I base my expectations of what Obama will do about Israel and Palestine solely on his appointment of Rahm Emanuel. Come on! I am not so stupid as that.
Ahhh, common SD. Please share with us your credentials as a trained “scholar in Middle East politics” and the years you’ve spent “visiting” in Israel.
(BTW, looks to me like you could use some training in US politics. In fact, as Shirin has pointed out, you could probably redo high school civics.)
Gosh, bb, it is obvious that I am far too unsophisticated for your argument about underclasses, moneyed classes and all that stuff. I am only capable of understanding the simple reality that if I hire someone to provide a service I need and they are freely offering, and if they perform that service and I pay them what they are asking for that service, then I end up with the result I expected and they end up with the money they expected, and we have a classic win-win situation.
In all honesty I never thought of it in a moneyed class versus underclass way. I thought it was just a simple matter of exchanging money for services. Silly me.