Italian Foreign Minister Massimo D’Alema has expressed himself foursquare against all use of extra-judicial executions (EJE’s). He did this in an interview with Gigi Riva of L’Espresso that was published yesterday.
(See what I wrote about EJE’s earlier in the week, here.)
Here, with lots of help from Google Translate, is what D’Alema said in the relevant part of the interview:
- Q: Lebanon. Nasrallah announces war after the murder of Mughniyeh in Damascus.
A: A car-bomb in the centre of a city I call terrorism.
Q: Some people said it was the Mossad.
A: Whoever has done it, it is terrorism. I find it also serious that the man was in Syria, which feeds suspicions on the regime.
Q: The car bomb killed the person responsible for some of the most (?) atrocious (nefande) actions that the Middle East has seen over the past 30 years.
A: I am against the death penalty imposed legally, so imagine how one should think about a death decided and undertaken in an extrajudicial way.
Q: [Is that statement] Valid even for the targeted killings of Hamas leaders by the Israelis in Gaza?
A: It is valid for all murders. It is an unacceptable practice. In combatting terrorism we must respect the rule of law. Extraordinary rendition, like targeted killings, has not enhanced the image of the West and has given an alibi for the terrorists.
Q: Returning to Lebanon, there are winds of war.
A:There are worrying signals, but our presence there makes things less bad. UNIFIL is acting also as a deterrent against possible outbreak of a civil war between Lebanese [HC: Really? Interesting that he thinks that… ]and is a key factor for the security of Israel.
Q: About Israel: One scenario would see an invasion of Gaza followed by an international mission to bring security to the area.
A: I shall not comment on scenarios. At some point it might be useful to establish an international force, but as a result of an agreement between the parties, not after an attack.
Okay, it’s still a highly imperfect translation, so if anyone can suggest an improvement for all or part of the above, please do contribute it.
I am just delighted to see an EU Foreign Minister being so clear about both the moral quality and the pragmatic disutility of a policy that condones– or of course, even worse, actually undertakes– extra-judicial executions.
This is news? What else do you expect a Western foreign minister to say…that extrajudicial executions are welcome? Even Condi wouldn’t say that.
Truesdell, I’m afraid you’re engaging in a rhetorical dodge that’s quite frequently used by defenders of Israel. That is, when confronted by an evidently hard-to-refute criticism of, or new facts about, some Israeli policy they (you) take the tack of saying, “Oh but hey, this isn’t even news; I don’t know why it’s even worth discussing!”
I can’t tell you how many variants of that argument I’ve heard over the years, including from my good (late) friend Ze’ev Schiff, when confronted with the revelations made by Mordechair Vanunui about Israel’s nuclear weapons program.
Well, all I can say in the present case is that if Condi or any other western foreign minister has also described the killing of Mughniyeh as “terrorism” then that event completely passed me by.
(Oh, and if D’Alema’s statement isn’t “news” then why have so many Israeli news outlets reported on it?)
slow news day?
Truesdell,Helena is right!
Why cheap escape from her comment with -SLOW NEWS DAY?
Sound like Israel Justice Ministry personnel.
And I would say that attempting to portray the Minister’s statements as a “evidently hard-to-refute criticism of, or new facts about, some Israeli policy” is a commonly used sleight-of-hand used by many anti-Zionists.
I wasn’t aware that Israel had either admitted to or been proven of having killed Mughniyeh. I think that even D’Alema would agree that this is uncertain:
Q: Some people said it was the Mossad.
A: Whoever has done it, it is terrorism. I find it also serious that the man was in Syria, which feeds suspicions on the regime.
Helenna,
20 years ago or more when we talking about Arab Israeli conflicts and what western world did and doing for Israeli despite all the crimes they done and doing in Palestinian we use to ask why UN or western countries don’t condemn Israelis acts?
Now you highlighting a bit of news that not feed any hunger and you cheering Italy saying Israelis acts is terrorists?
So now can you tell how many billions of dollars from your tax payment going and supporting Israelis?
Can tell us how many Italian money and donations goes to Israelis?
Can any one imagine how many money each month goes to Israelis either as tax payer money or private donations.
So by cheering Italy of this very basic moral things and playing it as a big as you could, it’s just pathetic and hapoctracy as far as we see.
for 60 years Israelis killing Arabs many are very smarts guys, one of them or university academic Dr. Yahya Al-Mashed who was killed by Mussed in France, the killing of East Germen specialists in Egypt during Jamal Abdul Nasser early fifties.
Recently hundred of Iraqi scientists killed by Mossad and other agenesis.
Who will be worth more, one individual living in the shadow or those scientists and professionals who lost from Arab world who?
Israeli did not obey 99 UN resolutions, The free world never stand and start to sanction Israel and punish her, but we so Iraq was punished by section caused the killing of 500,000 babies, and then followed by invasion cased more damage and more distraction in both level human side and infrastructures.
Western Free world sanction Sudan, Iran, and starting punishes some Syrians , but when it come to Israel its different matter in mighty God no one stand and stop this terrorists state.
Finally those Italians when with US and sent their country man terrorizing Iraq and destroyed Iraq Stat, so they are terrorists state Helena more good comes from terrorists and should look to themselves.
Imad Mughniyah, the terrorist in the shadows
No Evil The True Story of a Ground Soldier in the CIA?s War on Terrorism
by Robert Baer
Reviewed by Kenneth R. Timmerman
wonder if Imad Mughniyah lived in the shadow all his life till his death, no one knew his real face or where is he and what his work with Hezbollah>
The Irony some they rush defending him, his crimes and refusing to his terrorists acts.
If you are so confident he didn’t done terror acts how you confident he is a good man if he lived in the shadow as a fighter with believes he is doing good things?
Connecting The Dots
1. Iran’s Man in ME.
2. He was in Iran 20-25 days ago.
3. He killed in area near an Iranian’s Madrasah in Syria!
4. He is called the FOX of Hezbollah.
5. He is in Damascus three days before his killing.
It would seem to me that this temporary justice is indeed newsworthy, Truesdell-an entire region risks being destablized-including the security of Israel and the Lebanese, well they are bracing for another war-A slow news day-hardly a reality based take on things-I could not imagine that Israelis relish the idea of more Hezbollah rockets-and certainly the Lebanese do not wish to suffer a massive onslaught that only the world’s most powerful army can deliver?
What of human compassion? Rania Masri of Balamand writes of this angst-I find it deplorable that people can just magically wish upon all the people of the region more instability because some strategic jerk off decides to act in this way-this is good for whom? NO ONE it seems to me.
http://electronicintifada.net/v2/article9314.shtml
Israel’s audacity on the world arena is deplorable, precisely since Bush junior labeled the comatose Sharon as a man of peace, he gave them the green light to compete with his administration against humanity, all in the name of combating terrorism.
Seems that Israelis (zionist entity) are competing with time left to exercise as much atrocities possible on its neighbours, by doing so it is losing, and without hesitation it has lost the remaining support from her backers.
It is no surprise that it will wage another war on its northern borders, this time with Syria as well.
Unlike Americans, Israelis are still supporting the atrocities committed in their name and considered war crimes in the international arena.
Truesdell, Jess and Salah are overlooking realities, in doing so, they are oblivious to the rule of law.
Hi Helena,
Here are some small remarks concerning your translation which for the most part is a good one.
Q: The car bomb killed the person responsible for some of the most (?) atrocious (nefande) actions that the Middle East has seen over the past 30 years.
Most is absolutely correct. I think that I’d translate nefande by harmful.
A:There are worrying signals, but our presence there makes things less bad.
meno male is a very frequently used locution in Italian. It’s often difficult to translate. Litterally it means “less bad”; it’s one of this form, where you say not small in order to say big. Here I’d translate it as “happily we are here”.
As an aside I’d keep in mind that D’Alema (part of the Prodi government who recently fell) is speaking mainly for his Italian constituency, aka mainly pacifists who don’t like the fact that Italy is sending troops abroad. The pro-US actions of the preceeding Berlusconi government put a strain on the Prodi government and it’s clear that D’Alema is sitting on an edge. This is even more evident in the part where d’Alema is speaking of Afghanistan. (Personnally I think that if the EU countries accepted to send some troops in Afghanistant it was only as a consolation for the US (for not accepting to get along with them in Iraq, or for withdrawing from Iraq – and also : unlike in Iraq there was a UNSC agreement for the invasion of Afghanistan. They were also there only as peace keeping force and don’t want to participate in a new long war.)
Salah are overlooking realities, in doing so, they are oblivious to the rule of law.
So funny, some one support terrorists acts and he talking about Rule of Law.
PW, I devices you make donations to Hezbollah or to Mughniyeh, why you go and put Mughniyeh’s pictures on your house/Apartment to show the public your support to the shadow fighter if really believes in Rule of law that the shadow fighter applied and supported by you and your ilk?
Or you also shadowy Supporter of terrorists?
Are you dyslexic? it is WP
or you just play with letters, either omit or scramble to make us believe that…not that I care, it will not make you any better until you make a distinction between terrorism and freedom fighters.
Your device is for you to keep.
Your shadowy identity becomes more clear with every comment you post.
distinction between terrorism and freedom fighters.
Our shadowy supporter? Please realise your identity or you real name of you born country please?
It will tell us more about you
I well described myself, I am not as shadow comminatory as you setting in western world supporting terrorists.
Is your supporter of freedom fighting who high jacked Kuwaiti airplane and killed two innocents civilians on the flight throw them in a savage way on ground of the runway at airport in front the passengers and the world then turned to be that Kuwaiti hijacked airplane all about Hezbollah negotiating release of few Israeli prisoners/solders with promises that Israelis will sent US fighter spare parts to that lunatic leader of ISLAMIC Revelation of Iran, which turned to be Iran-Contra Deal.
Where is freedom fighting from all of that? Our shadowy supporter?
“Sono contro la pena di morte legalmente comminata, si immagini cosa posso pensare di una morte decisa ed eseguita in via extragiudiziaria”
His Excellency omits to explain why it is a contradiction to oppose capital punishment but admit war. Millions of people have had no trouble with that position, and for them — for us — all that he establishes here is that the assassins of M. Mughniyya, and those who approve of such assassinations, would be well advised to use military rather than juridical terminology in their apologetics.
Of course the Crawfordites have been doing exactly that consistently ever since 11.IX.2001. They don’t want any wimpy “police action” like Harry Truman’s in Korea, they insist upon a War Against Globoterror.
Italy I wouldn’t know about, but here in the holy Homeland “extrajudicial” does not count for much one way or the other.
Happy days.
لنبدأ حسب الأسبقية لهذا التواجد الأجنبي المسلح على الأراضي العراقية فهي التالية :
أولا ، هناك قوات مسلحة أجنبية تتكون من عشرة ألاف من مقاتلين تابعين لمجاهدي الخلق الإيراني في محافظة ديالى ، وحيث لهم معسكراتهم وأسلحتهم الثقيلة و الخفيفة وحصونهم المسماة بمدينة الأشرف ، وهي مستقلة بذاتها لذاتها ومن أجل بقائها لأمد طويل مع عدتها و أسلحتها!!.
ثانيا : هناك أعداد كبيرة تُعد بآلاف مؤلفة من مقاتلي حزب العمال الكردستاني التركي في شمال العراق وهي تحتل مناطق جبلية واسعة و محاذية للحدود التركية ، لتنطلق من هناك لتحرير كردستان تركيا !!! ..
الأمر الذي يترتب عليه احتلال تركي بين حين وأخر للأراضي العراقية وقصفها بالطائرات و قتل الأبرياء ، من السكان القرويين ، ونسف جسور و قطعان خرفان وبيوت مواطنين عراقيين ..
ثالثا ، هناك قوات القدس الإيرانية المتواجدة في مناطق عديدة من العراق جنوبا و شمالا ، و تحت أشكال و صور مختلفة ومتعددة ، وعبر أحصنة طروادة وعملاء و مرتزقة ، ذات خدود متوردة وبجيوب مزدهرة !!..
رابعا ، ” المجاهدون العرب ” من قوى إرهابية مفخخة أو مزنرة بسكاكين الذبح الإسلامي للأضحية البشرية العراقية !!..
ولكن الأغرب من كل ذلك هو :
محتلوالعراق من كل فج عميق وصوب نقيق
http://www.sotaliraq.com/articlesiraq.php?id=8225
Talking about terrorists gropes let see more from inside Iraq now this from Iraqi news paper (commonest party one) se what this article all about.
To those who have some problem with credibility of the sources with info I got, these are Iraq sources who talking about what’s happening in Iraq, although most of news coming from western media hardly telling this side of info what Iraqi view about other occupying forces on the ground despite they are hidden and “Shadowy Terrorists” groups and militias.
Death by Car Bomb in Damascus
A founding father of Islamic terrorism gets his just deserts.
by Thomas Joscelyn
02/25/2008
Sadly it isn’t in Islam a person (man or women) kill himself to kill civilians its against Islamic teachings, its clear in Qura’an verses, its clear in Sunnah
Hi Helena,
it’s a pretty good translation. On “nefando”: means wicked, nefarious. atrocious could be right, because it implies a moral abjection. It’s a mistake to translate as “harmful”.
D’Alema (I interviewed him here in Jerusalem last September) has a very profound knowledge of foreign policy, and especially regarding Middle East. He knows profoundly the Palestinian situation, as he was here many times during his political career. Regarding the ethical approach, although he is considered in Italy a very cool politician, he concentrates his ethical approach especially in foreign policy: it was this his approach when he was prime minister during the Kosovo crisis of 1999 and he decided – also on ethical grounds – the Italian military intervention in the conflict. In a way, he followed the Christian-democrat/Socialist Mediterranean policy the the Italian government followed from the 50s till the 90s, until Berlusconi decided the major shift never seen in the Italian foreign policy after WWII
“I wasn’t aware that Israel had either admitted to or been proven of having killed Mughniyeh.”
Are you suggesting that this means Israel has not had in the past, and does not currently have a policy of extra judicial execution (even as it hypocritically boasts that it is such an advanced state that it does not have the death penalty)?
“I wasn’t aware that Israel had either admitted to or been proven of having killed Mughniyeh.”
Are you suggesting that this means Israel has not had in the past, and does not currently have a policy of extra judicial execution (even as it hypocritically boasts that it is such an advanced state that it does not have the death penalty)?
No Shirin, I was not suggesting that at all, any more than I assume that you are now suggesting that Imad Mughniyeh was a butterfly collector on his day off. I was simply pointing out to Helena the elliptical nature of her argument based on this interview, in which it isn’t even suggested that Israel was involved. (And by the way, apparently Mughniyeh’s wife also has different ideas, as you can see in today’s Ha’aretz: http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/958004.html)
But look at the bright side Shirin. There are probably some freshly unemployed servants in Damascus since February 12. And we wouldn’t want you to have to live without your servants, would we?
The point is, JES, that whether Mughniya was a butterfly collector is completely irrelevant. Murder is murder, whether the victim is the purest of the pure or the worst of the worst.
It is also not terribly relevant whether Israel was behind this particular state murder or not. The point is that Israel has a long and very rich history of these kinds of murders undertaken as a routine matter of policy, and which, by the way, nearly always result in the “collateral” murders and maimings of others who are not the target, but who cares about them? And, of course, as I already mentioned, the hypocrisy is striking of Israel’s claim to be an enlightened country that refuses to use the death penalty for those who are legally tried and found guilty, but who freely imposes it on those who are never given the benefit of due process.
No, Shirin, that’s not the point at all. The point is Helena’s attack on Truesdell in which she asserts that the interview she quoted somehow included a “hard-to-refute criticism of, or new facts about, some Israeli policy”. Nothing of the sort was said by the interviewee, and there was only a reference to the Mossad by the interviewer (bait to which D’Alema didn’t even bother to rise).
As to your point, perhaps if Mughniyeh had turned himself in for trial to an enlightened country such as Israel or Argentina, he would have had a trial over his alleged complicity in the scores of deaths resulting from his targeting of civilians and “‘collateral’ murders and maimings of others” and not faced capital punishment.
(I am not counting here actions taken against military personnel who have after all placed themselves in a position where they have a “right” to kill under certain circumstances and also knowingly accept the risk that they might be killed.)
Hmmmm do you think Imad Mugniyeh himself might fit into this category?
Cute, and very childish arguments, JES and Vadim. I’ve noticed that you often resort to this level of argument when you have no substantive response to someone.
Cute, and very childish arguments, JES and Vadim. I’ve noticed that you often resort to this level of argument when you have no substantive response to someone.
Nothing I said addressed you Shirin, so this ad hominem outburst is (once again) uncalled for. I drew a parallel to Helena’s exemption of Mugniyeh’s bombing of the (US and French) Marine barracks to his own violent death. Helena seems to think one is a war crime and the other isn’t. Why? Obviously Mugniyeh is a combatant as much as any of they were… am I wrong? Would you even in the last years of his life consider him a civilian? Pray, enlighten me! What about this analogy do you find unconvincing?
Extra points for not addressing my rhetorical style, bad haircut, communist sympathies etc.
The point is that Israel has a long and very rich history of these kinds of murders undertaken as a routine matter of policy
Obviously that’s the point of the post, and your point, every second of every day. Israel all the time. Channel Israel.
You’re fixated on Israel. The Italian FM didn’t mention Israel once, and yet somehow is comments are most especially true of Israel, and not at all relevant to any of the other political actors in the area famous for planting car bombs. Including the deceased, and the nation hosting him, which has killed how many Lebanese political figures in exactly this way recently?
And your substantive response is…. what… Shirin? Perhaps you want to criticize my transliteration?
If you have a response, then please. If not, then spare me the scolding!