Forty years ago today, Israeli navy and air force units maintained a two-hour-long assault against a ship in international waters in the Eastern Mediterranean belonging to another country’s navy. The assault included attacks with napalm, and the machine-gunning of three life rafts launched in an attempt to float the most seriously wounded sailors to some safety. (This latter being clearly a war crime.)
The assailants killed 34 of the other country’s sailors and injured 172 more. Only 30 percent of the sailors on the targeted ship escaped injury, and it was only through heroic efforts that those survivors were able to keep the ship afloat at all and thus avoid considerable further loss of life.
The nationality of the targeted ship? It was a US Navy vessel.
If the assailants had belonged to just about any other country than Israel, imagine the uproar that would have followed within the US political system!
Today, 40 years after Israel’s attack on the USS Liberty, the San Diego Union-Tribune carries an anguished, very thought-provoking op-ed contribution on the affair from Ward Boston, Jr., a former naval aviator and FBI agent who served as chief counsel to the Court of Inquiry that the US Navy ordered into the attack.
Boston notes that though June 8, 1967 was a “sunny, clear day” the government of Israel claimed that this two-hour assault was “an accident.”
Well, if the attack had taken the form of the landing on the ship of a single missile, or perhaps even a small number of missiles, you could make that claim with a straight face? (As the Israelis did in 1996, when they claimed that their shelling of the UN compound in Qana, Lebanon, had been an “accident.”)
But a sustained, two-hour-long assault that was coordinated between the two very different Israeli combat arms– an accident??
Boston writes:
- I know from personal conversations with the late Adm. Isaac C. Kidd – president of the Court of Inquiry – that President Lyndon Johnson and Secretary of Defense Robert McNamara ordered him to conclude that the attack was a case of “mistaken identity.”
Again, given the weather conditions, this seems like an inherently implausible claim.
Boston wrote that as part of their enquiry he and Adm. Kidd,
- boarded the crippled ship at sea and interviewed survivors. The evidence was clear. We both believed with certainty that this attack was a deliberate effort to sink an American ship and murder its entire crew.
I am certain the Israeli pilots and commanders who had ordered the attack knew the ship was American. I saw the bullet-riddled American flag that had been raised by the crew after their first flag had been shot down completely. I heard testimony that made it clear the Israelis intended there be no survivors. Not only did they attack with napalm, gunfire and missiles, Israeli torpedo boats machine-gunned at close range three life rafts that had been launched in an attempt to save the most seriously wounded.
He writes, “I am outraged at the efforts of Israel’s apologists to claim this attack was a case of ‘mistaken identity.'” He also gives several details about how the various levels of ther US government carried out their politically motivated cover-up of the findings of the professional, technical investigation that he had helped to lead…
He writes,
- I join the survivors in their call for an honest inquiry. Why is there no room to question Israel – even when it kills Americans – in the halls of Congress?
Let the survivors testify. Let me testify. Let former intelligence officers testify that they received real-time Hebrew translations of Israeli commanders instructing their pilots to sink “the American ship.”
Surely uncovering the truth about what happened to American servicemen in a bloody attack is more important than protecting Israel. And surely 40 years is long enough to wait.
The ensuing cover-up has haunted us for 40 years. What does it imply for our national security, not to mention our ability to honestly broker peace in the Middle East, when we cannot question Israel’s actions – even when they kill Americans?
The survivors of the USS Liberty have been muzzled for a long, long time. Now let’s see if any other major media outlets will take up this story– and even more importantly, let us see if any US political figures will join the call for an honest commission of inquiry that will tell the whole truth about what happened on that sunny day 40 years ago today.
Then, those responsible for organizing and participating in this attack should be held to just as much account as any other body that knowingly and systematically carries out attacks on US forces.
The attempts by Israel’s supporters in the US to muzzle public consideration and discussion of some of the more sordid aspects of Israel’s policy over the decades have gone far too long for this to be a healthy part of the US political scene. The success of these muzzling (and self-muzzling) efforts have distorted both the US’s relationship with Israel, and the terms of the US’s general engagement with the world, in a way that has helped nobody…. certainly not the US citizenry!
I see that the survivors of the attack on the Liberty are asking for an official US investigation into the war crimes committed against US military personnel on June 8, 1967. Who in the US political system will be courageous enough to support their campaign?
Has any ever posited a reason why Israel’s military would do such thing? A deliberate attack on your patron (who is also a superpower) doesn’t seem like a good strategy to me.
In a free society, we have a standard of “innocent until proven guilty.”
In less free societies, we see a standard of “guilty until proven innocent.”
When it comes to judging Israel, Helena has established yet another standard. “Guilty even after being proven innocent.”
The USS Liberty affair has been investigated by both countries over one dozen times. All of the inquiries have reached the same conclusion, that the attack was a tragic accident which happens all too often in tense and confusing times of war.
And far from being “covered up,” Israel was required to acknowledge its mistake and pay reparations to the victims.
Despite this, at least once a year someone writes an article or a column re-hashing the entire incident. None of the allegations here are new have been previously addressed. But that won’t stop people with an agenda against Israel.
I’m not sure which is more objectionable, repeating the canard that the attack was intentional, or the now oh so typical charge that the reason for less criticism is the “muzzling” of the “Israel lobby.” Helena blurts these words out like a parakeet at this point.
Face it Helena, the matter has been investigated, and reinvestigated, and reinvestigated, and reinvestigated. It simply didn’t turn out in a way that would allow you and others to drive the wedge between Israel and the United States which you have yearned for.
It’s sad that you try to present this re-hashed column as news. It’s even sadder that you don’t acknowledge the fact that this was repeatedly investigated and the result always came up the same. I’m not sure which is worse, your continued pathological hatred for Israel, or your dishonesty with your readers.
Clearly, Zionist perfidy is limitless. But what on earth would motivate them to attack a warship of a powerful ally? Pure evil?
Surely an (eleventh!) investigation is called for. End the muzzling!
Arguments (in this forum and elsewhere) in defense of the unwarranted Israeli attack on a clearly identified American naval vessel invariably boil down to pure rhetorical sophistry. For only one example:
“It doesn’t make sense that Israel would attack its own superpower patron.”
Of course it makes sense. The Israelis wanted to do some things that they didn’t want their “patron” to know — or do — anything about. So the Israeli military attacked a ship such as none of their Arab adversaries possessed and tried to eliminate any witnesses to their crime of attacking an unarmed vessel in international waters — a wanton act of piracy, under the usually understood rules of sailing on the open ocean.
Yet when one has a senile, stupid, and corrupt “patron,” who in their right mind would not take every advantage imaginable to milk that “patron” of anything and everything possible? The sophistry of the apologists for Israeli self-interested piracy here hinges entirely on two slippery semantic dodges: namely, the words “patron” and “superpower,” which both imply an influence, if not control, over the “patronized” that no recent American government has ever exercised in matters that concern — even marginally — the apartheid Zionist entity currently squatting on other people’s land in violation of international law and United Nations resolutions going back forty years or more. Since Israel regularly and clearly treats that “superpower patron” like a used-up whore who just happens to have a lot of money but no brains or integrity, Israel’s patent disregard for America’s own interests makes perfect sense.
Again and as a matter of fact, Israel has refused, and continues to refuse, any formal treaty of “alliance” with America precisely because Israel feels it can get all the benefits of “alliance” without any of its obligations. Not much “power” displayed by America in swallowing that kind of arrangement. So, since America will stupidly fall for such an obvious one-way fleecing, it makes perfect sense why Israel would — as it often does — treat America with such undisguised disdain. (A few campaign contributions (i.e., bribes) seeded in the usual corrupt places does the job every time.) On the basis of this unarticulated deal between the “patron” and the “patronized” alone, a disinterested observer would consider the usual senses of both words reversed.
Additionally, the word “superpower” in this ongoing Zionist apologetic consciously ignores another certain — and glaring — example of cognitive dissonance. Israelis absolutely love to rub America’s notorious military bungling in the face of that very “superpower” which, if it indeed possessed an ounce of self-respect, wouldn’t tolerate for an instant such open mockery by its supposedly “patronized” “client.” In support of this claim I offer the comments of Israeli military historian Martin Van Crevald who said of the “superpower” in Iraq: “The American military is completely incompetent. All they can do is train Iraqis in how to fight Americans. How stupid can they be?” As well, we should never forget what Israeli general and former Prime Minster Ehud Barak told Vice President Dick Cheney about America’s “superpower” performance in Iraq: “All you have left to choose is the size of your humiliation.” This last, of course, from an Israeli whose right-wing govenment openly taunted America into invading Iraq in the first place. Israelis consider Americans gullible and stupid — but usefully so. Americans, for the most part, apparently agree with this unflattering assessment of themselves by the sneering object of their muddled munificence.
Continuing with the awful litany of humiliating American subservience to Zionist emotional and political blackmail, repeat after me: HOLOCAUST! HOLOCOAUST! HOLOCAUST! (with which Nazi German persecution of European Jews in WWII neither Americans nor Palestinian Arabs had any involvement). Israeli politicians regularly visit America and ceremoniously bend the American President over the railing of the White House balcony and perform the political equivalent of sodomy upon him while he smiles helplessly and the American Congress barks and claps in approval, as Eric Margolis puts it: “like a pack of trained seals.” Some “patron.” Some “power.” Nothing “super” (except for craven foolishness) about it.
To cut to the chase here: the entirely unquestioning American support of Israel qualifies as pure Folly, which Barbara Tuchman defined as “pursuit of policy contrary to self interest.” Israel could move to Kansas tomorrow and American interests in the Middle East would instantly realize a noticeable improvement. America’s support for Zionist Israel has only costs for America without any benefits. Even worse for the “superpower patron” and its rumored pride, Zionist supporters of Israel in America blatently and belligerently flog non-Jewish Americans with an emotional canard and non-sequitur: namely, that since most “Christian” Americans consider America a “Christian” (as opposed to a modern secular) nation, then the notorious actions of European German “Christians” in WWII somehow require Americans to submit — out of some imputed-by-Zionists “guilt” — to eternal annual reparations levied upon them by European Jews who have set themselves up in the Middle East (claiming some absurd 2,000-year-old “right of return”) as racial and religious “superiors” over the local “goyim” Arab inhabitants whom they have displaced and oppressed for over half a century now. Again, nothing “powerful,” much less “super,” about such easy submission by Americans to naked emotional extortion contrary to America’s own manifest national interests.
To summarize this critique of only one offered piece of sloppy sophistry: American foreign policy derives, as the late historian Barbara Tuchman wrote, from “intimidation by the rabid right at home.” Supporters of Zionist Israel in America have never failed to join in such belligerent intimidation no matter which of America’s two “major” corporate right-wing parties they consort with at the moment. In this they have combined a simple, crude lust for money and power with a pursuit of some other country’s interests contrary to our own.
Neither Joshua nor Vadim writes anything that engages with the clearly-expressed statements made in that article by Mr. Boston, a person who was in a much better position than either of them to assess both (a) the extent and viciousness of the Israeli military’s attack on the Liberty, and (b) the extent, high level, and extremely mendacious nature of the US political leadership’s long-sustained cover-up of the facts of the affair.
Joshua’s claim that the attack has been investigated by both countries over one dozen times is quite unsubstantiated and would be laughable if the whole affair weren’t so tragic.
As for motive, several have been suggested over the years. The one that makes most sense to me is that– as is fairly well established– the Liberty was indeed an electronic listening vessel, crammed with all kinds of gizmos capable of intercepting and analyzing wireless transmissions in the region; and that therefore there may indeed have been something the Israelis were doing in the ELINT field that they didn’t want recorded or understood by the Americans…. Maybe it was the case that (as some have suggested) they were deliberating scrambling and interfering with the Jordanians’ signals traffic with the goal of ‘tricking’ Jordan into joining the war on the Arab side? Jordan having always been a stalwart ally (puppet) of the US, any such trickery by Israel could be expected NOT to be favored by Washington.
But who knows the true motivation for Israel having mounted thatcomplex, sustained, and lethal attack on a US ship on that day? At one level, it is immaterial what the motivation is. But to those who ask “what on earth would motivate them to attack a warship of a powerful ally?” as a way of making the intentionality of the attack seem quite incomprehensible, I would say there are certainly some quite comprehensible ways of understanding the motivation.
Meanwhile, Vadim, thanks for providing that link to various Amazon-available resources on the Liberty attack. Many of those resources are very informative and helpful. Perhaps we should all send a package of these items to our Senators and Congresspersons.
Of course, few or none of these informational resources were produced by members of the big US MSM. And Paul Findley was the only person listed there who has ever held elective office in the US. Findley is also, of course, one of the fairminded people who was viciously targeted for attack by the nationwide pro-Israel lobby and lost his re-election bid because of that…
One can hardly wait for the thread here on September 5th marking the 35th anniversary of the massacre of the Israeli Olympic Team at the Munich Olympics…or is that, unlike the cynical brouhaha surrounding the motive for the attack on a US navy vessel during the Six Day War, not politically correct here?
I think that Michael Oren has done a good job of dealing with the issue and providing a detailed analysis of the documentary evidence, including new evidence released at the time of of his research. His article is available here:
http://azure.org.il/magazine/magazine.asp?id=143
What is clear from both US and Israeli records is that the ship was in a war zone, where it was not supposed to be, and that the US did not respond to requests by Israel to provide notification of all ships in the area. Further there were mistakes on both the US and Israeli side in communications and tracking vessels in the region.
I would agree with Joshua and Vadim – no one has been “muzzled” here.
I would also agree with Helena: motive is important. No reasonable motive has ever been offered for why Israel would attack a US ship. Helena’s makes even less sense than does the most common one – that the attack was supposedly meant to cover Israel’s plans to take the Golan. In the case of Helena’s “trying to trick Jordan” suggestion, this makes no sense. Jordan had already begun shelling Israel on June 5 – despite numerous requests by Israel for King Hussein to stay out of the battle. (This is also very well documented.) By June 7, East Jerusalem and most of the West Bank were already in Israeli hands. So why would Israel attack a US naval vessel on June 8?
The more common argument (that I think Helena is confusing here) is that Israel was somehow trying to provide cover for its plans to attack on the Golan. Here’s what Oren has to say about it:
Like the other claims for Israel’s alleged motive in attacking the Liberty, the one linking the assault to the Golan Heights campaign cannot withstand the scrutiny of the newly declassified documents. These confirm that Israel made no attempt to hide its preparations for an offensive against Syria, and that the United States government, relying on regular diplomatic channels, remained fully apprised of them. Thus, on June 8, the American consulate in Jerusalem reported that Israel was retaliating for Syria’s bombardment of Israeli villages “in an apparent prelude to large-scale attack in effort to seize Heights overlooking border kibbutzim.” That same day, U.S. Ambassador Walworth Barbour in Tel Aviv reported that “I would not, repeat not, be surprised if the reported Israeli attack [on the Golan] does take place or has already done so,” and IDF Intelligence Chief Aharon Yariv told Harry McPherson, a senior White House aide who was visiting Israel at the time, that “there still remained the Syria problem and perhaps it would be necessary to give Syria a blow.”
Finally, method is also an important question. As Helena states: “Well, if the attack had taken the form of the landing on the ship of a single missile, or perhaps even a small number of missiles, you could make that claim [of an accident] with a straight face?”
Indeed, a single missile or a couple of “dumb” iron bombs from a plane would likely have sunk the ship outright; end of story. So would have a single torpedo from a submarine, which would likely not have been identified. So why did Israel attack for two full hours, mostly with the most inappropriate means for sinking a ship? Perhaps just because Israelis are just plain evil and wanted to show America who’s boss, while also taking a little break from the war that the IDF was currently fighting just to napalm and strafe a friendly ship?
Her poison knows no bounds. Arabs kill Americans every day of every week of every year, and an accidental episode 40 years ago is the only mud she can come up with. Look at the friendly fire even with today’s technology where the US killed Canadian soldiers in Afghanistan. Shame on you, on your eco chamber, your corrupt motives and whoever is around you. Word have a meaning and I hope one day you’ll pay for your blind hatred and poison spewing.
Who is paying you, the Iranians or the Saudis. Go back to your idilic hole in Beirut, maybe to the lawless camps and tell them about conflict resolution through meditation. Sad lady.
Truesdell,
And let’s not for get March 2 which, next year, will mark the 35th anniversary of the torture-murder of Cleo Noel, the US Chief of Mission to Sudan, and his deputy George Curtis Moore.
I understand that there is ELINT in US hands that conclusively proves that the old pedophile, himself, gave the order to kill the two directly from Beirut. If this is the case, it significantly undermines PLO-Fatah “plausible deniability” relating to the viscious acts committed by “Black September”.
One thing I’ve found odd is how an important source on the Liberty attack – the Israeli pilot Evan Toni – has been left in relative obscurity Not mentioned as much as his testimony deserves, I believe. He wrote a Counterpunch a few years ago which is oddly not mentioned in this one today, but which gives the gist of it: http://counterpunch.org/stclair06082007.html
“Toni said that he was the pilot in the first Israeli Mirage fighter to reach the Liberty. He immediately recognized the ship to be a US Navy vessel. He radioed Israeli air command with this information and asked for instructions. Toni said he was ordered to “attack”. He refused and flew back to the air base at Ashdod. When he arrived he was summarily arrested for disobeying orders.”
Sure, Toni could be insane, or a liar (but why?). But do you really believe that? His statements seem to make the “unintentional” thesis quite fantastic; at least that is how it looks to me. Are there any other incidents of claimed “friendly fire” contradicted by similar damning testimony?
” Israel was required to acknowledge its mistake and pay reparations to the victims
Oh yah, …. Israel pay reparations!!! from where Israelis got the money for this?
Normally US citizenry weights tens of millions of dollars when its comes to reparations, so Israelis paid them from those Billions that US tax payers give each year to Israel?
Did US take those repartitions from those billions gifted to Israel each year?
I’d want to see a full investigation in this incident, and an objective policy towards Israel that doesn’t fall into any rubber stamp trap. But I feel it’s impossible to achieve those goals because people trying to destroy Israel then try to muscle in. I think Helena made important points in her post, but then come people saying that “Israel could move to Kansas tomorrow and American interests in the Middle East would instantly realize a noticeable improvement.” Reading such a vile statement makes some of the hardline pro-Israeli rhetoric on this board actually seem justified. Again, I want an objective policy willing to condemn Israel for any unjust acts committed, WITHOUT feeling Israel’s existence is threatened.
JES,
Before puts these “Black” or “RED” or using “viscious acts” or “”plausible deniability”
Just take a minute and think with yourself about your leader’s, military commanders and your PM like Bin Groins, Sharon, and others like Moshe Dian what they did to the innocent’s people in Palestine.
It is so naive some come here and specks about crimes or terrors around the world and he does not bother to memorise his country his people and his nation history full of crimes and terror and torture for the last 50 years.
I think the people here dose not have short memory like your JES, you try to be an angle good try JES.
Inkan, what on earth is vile about saying “Israel could move to Kansas tomorrow and American interests in the Middle East would instantly realize a noticeable improvement”? It looks to me as if you missed the point completely and made a completely incorrect interpretation. Please rethink.
Uh yeah. Jeffery St. Clair publishes pretty much the same piece in Counterpunch every year. I’d like to know who the hell this “Evan Toni” is. Has he appeared anywhere? I also like the bit about Dayan ordering the attack. Nowhere does it say that he ordered an attack on what he knew to be (or even thought) was an American ship. He very likely ordered an attack on what he thought was an Egyptian ship.
In the meantime, no one has ever been able to convincingly explain why Israel would want to go out of its way to sink this ship, or why a planned attack to sink the ship would have been carried out in such a blatantly incompetent way.
Shirin – Perhaps you’d like to ‘splain the blowhard Michael Murry’s bitter rantings to us, because, frankly, I don’t see how Inkan misunderstood anything. Or, perhaps Palestine could move to Kansas!
The whitewashing of the Israeli attack on the LIBERTY is obvious but not surprising considering the power of the Israel lobby. We should also remember the Lavon affair in the 1950s when Israeli agents were caught trying to blow up American installations in Egypt so as to dampen US-Egypt relation.
As far as cover ups go the blatant Whitewash of the Kennedy assassination by the Warren Commission still stands out as the grandaddy of the them all. A nation capable of covering up the truth about the murder of a sitting President is certainly capable of whitewashing something like the attack on the LIBERTY.
With the israel lobby today even more powerful than it was 40 years ago, a repeat performance cannot be ruled out. Are the Israelis and their neo-con hatchet men capable of fabricating an incident to touch off a US-iran war?
To ask the question is to answer it.
It’s curious (and sad) how these US servicemen are so anxious for investigations into what the Israelis may have done in 1967, with a claimed loss of only 34 lives, but resolutely continue to block investigations into their own truly massive war crimes at the very same time in Vietnam, which resulted in many millions of innocent people using their lives.
Anyway, I’m all for investigating everything that happened in 1967. If any Israelis broke the law they should be punished. But that goes for everybody. It’s definitely more than time that the traitors and terrorists who served in the US military be investigated for their massive war crimes and prosecuted to the full extent of the law (there is no statute of limitations on murder, and certainly none on genocide).
But I guess killing someone is only a crime when Jews do it. When Americans or British do it (and there have been many instances over the years that need investigation) it’s just business as usual. What incredible hypocrisy, not to mention blatant and obvious anti-Semitism. (Just my humble opinion.)
Red herring, Mike. It’s natural (not particularly admirable, but natural) for US military vets to be more concerned about a possible war crime committed against them than to be concerned about their own war crimes. Welcome to the human race.
As for lefties, I doubt there’s an American leftist in existence who wouldn’t welcome a complete and thorough investigation into all the crimes committed by the American empire over the past several decades. A truth commission, in other words.
I don’t know what to think about the Liberty, btw. I read a book by one of the people on board and it made me strongly suspicious of the incident, but I’m not sure what the truth is. That’s why it’d be nice to have an investigation by people one could trust. Who that would be I don’t know.
I agree with Mike that war-crimes committed by any perpetrator should be investigated– whether Israeli, US, British, Russian, Arab, or any other.
If you check the blog, Mike, you’ll find plenty of references to and my strong criticisms of infractions of international humanitarian law (the laws of war) committed by US forces; and some to abuses committed by other parties. Since I’m a US taxpayer I feel a particular responsibility to try to ensure compliance with IHL by forces paid for out of my tax dollar– that is, by the US and Israel.
Of course, if this administration had not itself, willy-nilly, decided that “the Geneva Conventions don’t apply” in certain circumstances, then US officials would be in a far better position to argue for lawfully humane treatment of US citizens– whether soldiers or civilians– who are abused by other governments.
Does anyone here actually support, the position Mike suggested Helena holds, that “killing is a crime, but only if Jews do it?” Helena has now publicly stated she herself does not hold such a view. As a matter of interest does anyone else reading this support such a position?
Conversely, is ayone reading this prepared to support the position that killing is a crime, but not if a Jew does it?
Seriously, if anyone thinks either position holds merit, post to let us know. Or one can always be deceptive of course if one thinks thats the clever thing to do.
Otherwise, one will have to presume readers agree regarding the wholesale murder going on in the ME; that the guilt for it is shared, as is the responsibilty for ending it. Implied in that is the position that jews; like all other people, can be good or bad. Personally I think the question, “When does it become a crime against humanity to be a US taxpayer, if you have any understanding of what your country is doing to the world?” is far more interesting.
Sure, an independant and properly resourced judicial investigation of the USS Liberty attack would find the truth of that horrific and tragic event faster than simply the passage of time will. We have quite a number of officialy disputed facts here. Also, undisputed war crimes , such as the machine gunning of life rafts by torpedo boats, are an element. With respect Mike, investigating everything that happened in one given year, 1967, is probably a little too non-specific. How could that be done?
BBC documentary
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-6595846710992512471
American tragedy at sea?
How about the 69 year old disabled American tourist shot in the forehead and then thrown overboard in his wheelchair while vacationing on an Italian cruise ship 22 years ago?
CNN news report:
http://www.cnn.com/resources/video.almanac/1985/achille.lauro/klinghoffer.dead.45.mov
“Joshua’s claim that the attack has been investigated by both countries over one dozen times is quite unsubstantiated and would be laughable if the whole affair weren’t so tragic.”
Except, of course, that it’s true. The Liberty incident has been investigated a total of thirteen times. 3 times by Israel, TEN times by the U.S.
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/History/liberty2.html
Despite the repeated findings that the incident was accidental, Israel paid $13 million in reparations to the U.S. The incident was also deemed closed and resolved through an exchange of diplomatic notes in 1987.
But for Helena, an agreement with Israel can be breached or violated if it means Israel can be further punished. This is worth noting the next time Helena talks about demanding that Israel commit to any type of agreement. Because it’s clear that for her, such an agreement or understanding can be abrogated when it suits her.
you’re not suggesting that there’s a double standard here when it comes to Israel?
The Wikipedia entry on the Liberty affair is judiciously put together, informative, generally well-sourced, and admirably wide-reaching. It includes the following about the scope of these many previous investigations:
The scope of the Israeli investigations was to decide whether or not anyone in the Israeli Defense Forces should be tried on crimes (no criminal wrongdoing was found), accepting as a premise that the attack was a mistake. The scope and performance of U.S. congressional investigations and four other U.S. investigations subsequent to the U.S. Navy Court of Inquiry did not satisfy some parties. The majority of those subsequent U.S. reports were issues such as communications failures rather than culpability. The Naval Court of Inquiry conclusions continue to be disputed.
The entry contains the names of the sailors killed and considerable other relevant information. Its sources include but certainly go far beyond the Jewish Virtual Library web-page Joshua referred to above.
As I understand all of this, and the responses I read here…particularly the immature responses, a’la Doris and the like, I conclude (for what it is worth) that their is enormous human suffering occuring-so why waste time trying to appease and respond to the likes of such folk?
If I have found anything of use in reading these debates, it is discovering strategies to outrightly counter the logic, pre-emptively, of AIPAC folks.
Is Israel an ally? I am not so sure. I would invite Doris to read “Lebanon, Lebanon”.
Does Israel get everything it wants? Far too often, yes. Must AIPAC be limited-countered-ABSOLUTELY.
For many,that makes those of us who see things this way, the target of underhanded, whiny adjectives. The way I see things, is that our Foreign AID budget, is my foreign aid budget. Not the POSSESSION, nor the unequivocal ENDOWMENT of AIPAC’s. So, THANK YOU for allowing me to learn from all of you. I carry on with my lobbying. This is my foreign policy-NOT AIPAC’s.
KDJ
oops…I meant “there”-can we not get an edit function on here, Helena?!
Cheers,
Kevin
shirin, the point of this message board is Helena’s assertion that this attack on the Liberty, which cost 34 lives, very much merits a full investigation, one where Israeli officials are found criminally culpable is a plausible conclusion. I agree with that point and I support any punitive action against any Israeli official should they be found at fault. But Michael Murray instead went off on this hysterical rant about a cartoonish scenario of the United States being a supposedly powerless whore of Israel. Strangly, Israel is either a U.S. client state which would instantly collapse without U.S. support and has to get U.S. approval to make any move like the 2006 attack on Lebanon, or this opposite scenario of Israael being these all powerful evil masters who’ve completely enslaved a helpless U.S. Neither of these infantile scenarios reflect the complex situation of U.S.-Israeli relations. Michael Murray’s rant is a tangent into broad simplications of the Middle East situation that takes us away from the specific focus of the Liberty incident. His statement implies that if we feel the Liberty attack has to be investigation, we have to support the destruction of Israel and can’t do anything else. I don’t agree with that at all and I feel that attitude is preventing people from pursuing an investigation.
And frankly, Murray’s rant sounds like a copy of the old conspiracy scenario of evil Jews controlling the United States in order to hurt it. Just replace “Jews” with “Israelis” like in a Mad Lib.
BTW: I don’t think anyone else has been saying that only Israel should be punished for incidents like the Liberty attack. Other posters keep listing other incidents like the Munich deaths, Leon Klinghoffer, etc. What do they got to do with anything? We’re supposed to be talking about the Liberty attack.
Inkan, thanks but I understood Helena’s point perfectly well without your assistance. Unfortunately your lengthy, patronizing reply does nothing to answer my question to you.
Neither Joshua nor Vadim writes anything that engages with the clearly-expressed statements made in that article by Mr. Boston, a person who was in a much better position than either of them to assess both (a) the extent and viciousness of the Israeli military’s attack on the Liberty, and (b) the extent, high level, and extremely mendacious nature of the US political leadership’s long-sustained cover-up of the facts of the affair.
If there were any kind of elaborate cover-up, Boston himself is responsible for sustaining it! His rendition of events post-2004 contradicts his signature on the original Naval inquiry, “clearly expressing” under oath that the conclusions of the inquiry were accurate, and his years of silence until the death of Rear Admiral Kidd, when his story suddenly changed. So was he perjuring himself then or lying now? And as a lawyer, hasn’t he heard of the ‘dead man’s statute?’ Admitting to his own perjury is one thing but he has no right to testify on Adm. Kidd’s behalf. So much for the skeptics’ evidentiary standard.
The scope and performance of U.S. congressional investigations and four other U.S. investigations subsequent to the U.S. Navy Court of Inquiry did not satisfy some parties
The Naval Court of Inquiry conclusions continue to be disputed.
passive voice alert! Certainly the IP attached to this wiki revision “disputes” the navy’s conclusions, along with dozens of web cranks and conspiracy nuts, maybe some of the same folks who ‘dispute’ the conclusions of the 9/11 commission (like explosives expert Rosie O’Donnell.)
As for the MSM ‘muzzling’: someone needs to search for “USS Liberty” on NEXIS and explain how thousands of articles in major newspapers over decades, a documentary on the History Channel etc. amounts to ‘muzzling.’ These charges of Zionist censorship seem more ridiculous with each [self-nullifying] iteration.
The Zionist mind control beam claims another victim:
http://www.thelibertyincident.com/docs/Kidd.pdf
from (http://www.thelibertyincident.com/documents.html ) a hasbara site written by someone named — wait for it– “Cristol.”
Warning: contains primary documents.
Other posters keep listing other incidents like the Munich deaths, Leon Klinghoffer, etc. What do they got to do with anything?
Merely to underscore the cynical selectivity of topics here aimed at placing Israel in an unfavorable light. In a 60 year time frame, even tranquil countries like Norway, New Zealand and Denmark are not without occasional controversy…let alone a nation that has zealous martyr wannabes constantly nipping at its heels.
It is one thing to use the anniversary of the attack on the SS Liberty to rehash the underlying facts of this tragedy…but you would never see here an anniversary used to underscore the unrelenting climate of terrorism that give Israeli decisionmakers little margin for error (e.g., the murder of Israel’s olympic athletes at Munich or shooting an old wheelchaired bound American tourist on an Italian cruise ship in the forehead and throwing him overboard).
What is interesting about all of this (existentially I really am astonished at how much time and energy is wasted on all of this)-you did it, they did it, etc.
Why aren’t you all working for peaceful resolution to conflict?
“It is one thing to use the anniversary of the attack on the SS Liberty to rehash the underlying facts of this tragedy”..and another to ask for a properly resourced and independant judical enquiry.
“you would never see here an anniversary used to underscore the unrelenting climate of terrorism that give Israeli decision makers little margin for error (e.g., the murder of Israel’s olympic athletes at Munich or shooting an old wheelchaired bound American tourist on an Italian cruise ship in the forehead and throwing him overboard).” Ok well there are two tragicly brutal and criminal terrorist attacks, that clearly in no way forced anyone to machine-gun the stars and stripes right off the mast of the USS Liberty.
Have you seen the 2006 film by a brilliant director of jewish descent about Munich? In many ways the events at the Olympic village were a greater atrocity than the attack on the Liberty could have been, insofar as one can “measure the inches” of such things. I wonder did anyone learn anything from Munich? I hope it is discussed here and why not on the event’s anniversary? You see the thing is Israel dominates the middle east, backed by the worlds superpower. As it turned out, Egypt didn’t have to be annihilated; nor cleaved from the soviets in 1967 to achieve that.
In a 60 year conflict between imbalanced forces, people make their judgements about reasonable actions based in part on who is percieved to have the upper hand. Israel’s insistance she is the underdog, or “the guys fighting the bad guys” has not been sufficient to keep the international community convinced that is a reality. Especially when Israel is also proud of the significant military domination she has achieved. As the oil will likely run out in a few decades, and Israel’s enemies may acquire strategic weapons, I do hope Israel has some greater subtlety and foresight in her long term foreign policy than she currently demonstrates. Because otherwise, it will just be another example of how even the most well deserved international sympathy is just another public domain resource to be sqaundered by foolish and venal politicians.
Today is when Israel can negotiate diplomaticly from a position of strength to achieve a stable and permanent future amongst her permanent neighbours. This is not the time for taking more land or starting more battles. Don’t throw away the only country the jewish people are ever likely to get. Surely Israelis know you will not convince the world your weaker foes should just be destroyed. And sneering at them or the rest of us for examining your actions critically is really quite counterproductive. It’s pretty evident that as a result of your sum actions as nation over the last 60 years we ignorant foreigners no longer cede you the moral authority you still presume. Try starting a bit of tranquility, and common sense yourselves. You’ll live longer.
Roland,
And sneering at them or the rest of us for examining your actions critically is really quite counterproductive. It’s pretty evident that as a result of your sum actions as nation over the last 60 years we ignorant foreigners no longer cede you the moral authority you still presume. Try starting a bit of tranquility, and common sense yourselves. You’ll live longer.
I prize you on these well put facts…
Friends, an excellent piece on the situation in Lebanon
http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,,2100768,00.html
Since we are talking about terror, here is an excellent video: The Beirut Apartment:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BwGroHGbLRk&eurl=
I spoke with Lt. Ennes after a luncheon that followed the 40th Anniversary Ceremony for the USS Liberty, which was held at Arlington National Cemetery. He was on the bridge of the ship when the Israeli attack began and he was badly wounded. A cover-up of what really happened on June 8, 1967, continues today. The efforts of the men of the Liberty, and their supporters, to seek justice for their cause has been persistently blocked. “Consider the fact that the Israelis claim that they came after the torpedo explosion, they came along side immediately and offered help. Every man on the ship will tell you that it was another forty minutes after the torpedo explosion and that they attacked us machine-gunning anything that moved for forty minutes and then they left for forty five minutes or and hour and came back. In the mean time they were machine-gunning our life rafts in the water…” – Lt. Ennes
(Video) Lt. Ennes: “Without Doubt…It Was a Deliberate Attack!”
‘why aren’t you all working on peaceful resolution to conflict?’
kdj, I think you took a wrong turn somewhere. the ‘peaceful resolution to conflict’ discussion is on another thread, perhaps even another blog. This discussion concerns Zionist villainy. I’m sorry you find this theme tedious or unproductive. if its any consolation so do I..
Helena, with all due respect to your post about the attack on the Liberty and the war crimes committed against US military personnel on June 8, 1967.
But also in June 7, 1981 the attack on the Iraqi Nuclear reactor near Baghdad…
This a terrorist acts done by terrorist state and this crimes need to be taken seriously and punish those criminals who done it.
At 10:10 PM, the AWACS crew noticed that the Mirage had banked suddenly and then turned northward, as though heading for home. What they failed to detect was the launching by the Iraqi pilot of two Exocet AM39 air-to-surface missiles.
Salah, are you still interested in the Stark incident (a more deadly attack than the one on the Liberty, whose perpetrators also remain unpunished)? Probably not. Does it illustrate Iraqis’ deceitful and warlike nature? Of course it doesn’t.
So I’m wondering why you -a spectator to 1967, neither a US nor an Israeli, nor even an Egyptian citizen- care so much about the issue of the Liberty. I’m guessing it has nothing to do with “peaceful resolution to conflict.” Actually you seem eager to watch a brawl.
Reading through your five posts on this topic, its obvious to me that you haven’t read the thorough account offered by Judge Cristol (who devoted ten years and a doctoral thesis to the topic.) Instead of cutting and pasting youtube clips, why not try to engage the detailed arguments presented there, which address the testimony of Lt. Ennes?
Roland, Israel’s military strength doesn’t afford it more power, or more responsibility to end the conflict with its neighbors. And what on earth does the USS Liberty incident (a 40 year old US/Israeli conflict) have to do with resolving this conflict? Nothing, unless you think that driving a wedge between the US and Israel helps weaken the latter, to indirectly benefit “your team.”
That isnt “peaceful resolution to conflict,” it’s called “taking sides.”
In a 60 year conflict between imbalanced forces, people make their judgements about reasonable actions based in part on who is percieved to have the upper hand.
Unfortunately, this simplistic moral calculus (power = responsibility) underpins much criticism of Israel. But it clearly contradicts another principle: that military force is only one and arguably the least important element in peacemaking.
Any power no matter how weak can sustain deadly conflict indefinitely with a much stronger foe. “Evening the playing field” won’t ensure the security of either side. Which is why Helena’s crusade to take Israel down a peg actually works against peace, lending credence to Israelis’ sense of persecution and existential fear. (In case you missed it Roland, many of her more ardent commentators reject Israel’s existence, not its policy.)
‘Moral authority’ is an imperious expression. No one -not even you- has moral authority. “You’ll live longer” just sounds like a threat.
Vadim,
Look Vadim my cutting and pasting its inline and clear with the discussion, you or others who locked their minds on a single argument by defending one side.
Go back and read the BOLD section from that cutting and pasting, its obvious evidences rejecting all your claims about the incident.
Israel engaging in a terrorists and mascaras crime of humans in her very bloody history from day one of her establishment.
The denial will not free State of Israel from all crimes to its neighbours and to Arab people. But as all the times you are “Truth Haters” and where are the truths? Sure not with you or with your friends who defends indefinable crimes of a Terrorists State of Israel.
In regards to OPERA , go back to that “cutting and pasting” youtube and listen carefully to the clips which made with pride, what in fact said is a lot of crimes against Iraqi scientists and the country even reported that Iraq never did threat to destroy Israel!! Iraq was conditioned its nuclear power and research if Israeli attack Iraq then Iraq will be entitled to use his power, this is a quite fair action or reaction as “Eye for Eye” isn’t?
This brings a story that reported early days before Opera crimes, that Saddam met with a US delicates in Mussel “North Iraq” he was clearly stated to the US visiting delicates if Israel attacking Iraq he will use “The Chemical weapons to burn Half Israel” So it was “IF” conditioned?.
offered by Judge Cristol (who devoted ten years and a doctoral thesis to the topic.)
HOW ISRAEL CONTROLS WHAT YOU READ
CAMERA, a pro-Israeli activist group, has sent out the following email to their associates asking them to promote the book “The Liberty Incident: The 1967 Israeli Attack on the U.S. Navy Spy Ship.”
This book is written by a man who simply asked Israeli officials for their version of what happened to the USS Liberty and write it up as an “objective” report without bothering to even talk to any of the surviving crewmembers of the USS Liberty itself.
you or others who locked their minds on a single argument by defending one side.
Salah has a valid point here…When every event is twisted to favor the same side and events that don’t fit this narrative are ignored, credibility is lost.
The Israel/Arab dispute is replete with gray areas…Two Peoples, One Land…there is plenty of fault to go around. Those who rely upon Protocols of the Elders of Zion-type conspiracy theories (AIPAC domination, SS Liberty coverup, Holocaust denial) demonstrate the poverty and bias of their position.
It is manifestly ludicrous to suggest that a people who amount to less than 1/4 of 1% of the world’s population (less than 3% of America’s) have a stranglehold on US global policy.
Avraham Burg
Want to reserach war crimes? Why go far, go to Gaza where the action is unfolding. A cook thrown from a 15 stroy building, another fellow from 12 stories, 45 bullets pumped into a hospital patient, executions, the highest lawlessnes and violence you can find in the world per square kilometer, brought to you by the Arab culture and the religion of peace. Shirin, is there a translation to Arabic to the word coexistence? Go the fabous Palestinan camp in Lebanon where there were presumably just 100 foreigners, it turns out they killed more Lebanse soldiers than that, some of them beheaded, they seem to have mortars. If there were 100, 40 died, 20 surrendered, how come the conflict goes on unabated. Arab lies left and right, does war crime even have a meaning in Arabic or is is just a way of life, like honor killings in the family. I love when a brother kill a sister to clear the family name, and the name is something like Atta or Al Zwairi. There ain’t enough bleach on the planet to clear your deeds. And you worry about a 40 year old friendly fire? The US just killed 7 Afghani officers yesterday on such a mistake. Yes your moslem brethren Afghani, where is the fuss Salah, let’s talk about the purity of your soldier career, Mr. desertor to the US. Go back and pacify your land, we can do without you here, we have Helena to write biased poison and she spells better than you.
Respectfully,
D.
Is no-one going to discuss Munich then? I thought the expectation we weren’t going to was the problem? But no we still aren’t discussing it, just complaining that we aren’t discussing it, becuase the narative is one sided. Right.There are a lot of links to follow here. I thoroughly recommend following as many as you have time to, including the source documents on Cristol’s website, along with his interpretations.
Missing subtlety. Always easy to do. I criticised Israeli presumption of moral authority that is no longer ceded to her by others. This is obviously different from arguing for example that a person or state actually has moral authority. One should avoid defending positions one hasn’t taken.
Some people want to destroy whole nations of people. Yes, one sees quite strong evidence in expressions by people posting here that they could occasionally harbour such feelings about different countries. Personally, I tend to feel, (without any moral authority to draw on of course) that they should not, but in any case I am glad not to myself. See above.
Doris, with respect, your posts are one stand out example of that I feel. I see your constant and reamrkably frank confessions of hatred towards arabs and your conviction they are inferior to Israeli non-arabs. You frequently say you think Helena’s column is unfair because it doesn’t run articles that demonstrate your bluntly stated views. But Doris, there are already so many such blogs in Israel, and you can’t just make every blog in the world a mouthpiece for your feelings. Also, oppressing people who do bad things does not make you a good person. That’s why my wife stopped beating me.
And then we read here as is evidenced on the front page most everyday that “noblese” isn’t even expected to “oblige” anymore. The ME is to be considered a level playing field and someone just happens to have the ball. To have the upper hand, and then just waste it on doing good, that is of course imperialism. And that’s immoral. Sure.
I believe that if Israel lets herself consider earnest little suggestions like the one I made she might manage to live longer. You know, that’s why I made it. It was in the nature of an admonishment, in the formal sense of the word. But it’s an odd sort of thing to feel is a “threat”. What else does one find threatening, to see a threat even in that? Let me put it another way. If in a forum like this one dares to exhort people in a difficult situation to show due consideration in their policies, and they respond defensively and with frankly clumsy sophistry to the suggestion, then the likely limits of broader debate have been determined. Israel, you were born to terribly scarred parents, their terrors have been passed onto you, and you have never had the chance to heal. “Je suis la plaie et le couteau.”
Or “Such is the nature of the human animal”, as Admiral Kidd wrote to Dr/Judge Cristol.
So anyway, if you want to see discussion about the Liberty, of a type we can’t expect here: http://hnn.us/articles/193.html
Ultimately Roland, it’s far easier for me to believe that the Liberty was misidentified (as was the much larger USS Stark, which no one in their right mind could mistake for an Iranian boat — as a participant in the conflict, Salah might cut-and-paste an explanation on behalf of the Iraqi armed forces.) The secrecy surrounding the case most likely resulted from US sensitivity regarding its surveillance practices. Darkness breeds conspiracy theories like a fungus.
By way of HNN articles, here’s one of much more recent vintage: http://hnn.us/articles/39936.html . A lot of NSA tapes have been released since your thread. This one addresses Ward Boston and his claims directly.
It’s pretty obvious that most if not all of Boston’s claims amount to hearsay and personal inferences. A critical reading of his op-ed suggests the same: he “knows from personal conversations” of a cover -up; he heard “testimony that made it clear the Israelis intended there be no survivors.” He infers from the ship’s physical damage (his only first-hand observation) that a major attack took place — as if this or the intention to cause the ship harm were disputed. Talk about missing the point.
His most damning claim (the only direct “proof” of Israeli foreknowledge) concerns Hebrew intercepts emanating from unnamed Israelis acknowledging the Liberty’s origin. But NSA transcripts (and audio) taken from US spy planes, that anyone can look up and hear for herself, show that the voices captured on US tapes couldn’t possibly have known the Liberty’s flag. Go to Cristol’s site: read them yourself and listen to the accompanying audio. Don’t rely on Ward Boston’s second-hand testimony.
Does Ward Boston have any official standing to question the court’s conclusions? Not really — as court counsel his job is to gather and present facts, which he certified were accurate and complete. Even now, in interviews he’s careful to state that any inferences he draws from those facts are strictly his own. But for the op-ed pages, he summons extra resolve. He’s certain there was a coordinated treasonous coverup extending all the way to the White House. He’s certain that the Israelis would risk calamity targeting the US military for no reason, while telegraphing their plans -unencoded- over the airwaves!
The testimony of the crew (some of whom were interviewed by Cristol – note the letter from Captain Mcgonagle) is less informative than audio intercepts that clearly demonstrate ignorance on the part of the Israelis. Anyone can go listen to this declassified audio on Cristol’s site. For his part, Cristol acknowledges incompetence on the part of both the Israeli and US naval authorities. This is far easier to believe than a massive coverup to conceal a crime with no obvious purpose.
Too much criticism of Israel addresses their ‘presumption of moral authority’. This is diversionary. It isn’t about establishing moral, military or any other kind of authority. It isn’t about convincing us of Israeli’s essential sneaky, dishonest, conniving nature. I/P debates should be about finding a modus vivendi, not tarring one or the other side as untrustworthy thugs. Even if it were true that some unknown Israeli authorized the attack on the Liberty, what useful conclusion might be drawn? That Israelis on the whole are sneaky, untrustworthy liars? That they lack ‘moral authority?’ That the US should treat them with suspicion? These things have no place in productive conversation.
Try starting a bit of tranquility, and common sense yourselves
Assumes the Israelis want something other than tranquility, and that they lack common sense. It begs dozens of meaningful questions. It’s scolding wrapped in platitude, not an “earnest little suggestion.”
An analogy. How does this sound:
“Arabs, get with the program. Stop complaining, and blowing things up. You’ll live longer. Give peace a chance.”
I’m just waiting for Helena to talk about Hamas’s “daring” and “inventive” actions in Gaza.
Doris,
Salah, let’s talk about the purity of your soldier career, Mr. desertor to the US. Go back and pacify your land, we can do without you here,
First my personal things its not your or any one business Doris, learn and watch yourself next time when you talk.
Before asking me did you asked your friends who live near you I guess in US and talking about peace in ME and Arab?
This bit of news tells you and those who simply blindly supporting Israel read and enjoys peace loving people work around the world…
A SYDNEY council’s decision to form a sister city relationship with Bethlehem has outraged members of the Jewish community, who say the move is akin to supporting terrorism.
Marrickville Council, in Sydney’s inner west, has had an in-principle agreement since 2001 with the Palestinian city believed by some Christian scholars to have been the birthplace of Jesus Christ.
The agreement is due to be formally ratified at a council meeting next Tuesday.
Councillor Sam Iskandar said the city had been chosen as a symbol of love, peace and harmony, but the Jewish community says it is anything but.
Joshua:
I am interested in hearing from Helena on the idea of an international peacekeeping force for Gaza-this ought to have been done months ago.
Helena, do you agree?
I read the further Cristol link. Having read and considered the range of evidence presented here, including kdj’s post of the excellent BBC documentary, and Cristol’s original documents, etc etc I think it would be a lot better for all concerned if there was a properly resourced and independant judicial investigation.
I am amazed to see people posit that the Liberty was indentified as an enemy vessel, at the same time as they try to argue that the force of the two hour attack was somehow reasonable, as the ship was not sunk. Did they half think it was a half egyptian ship so they only half sank it? And we have this massive series of mistakes, attacking an ally at length causing many casualties, leading to how many courts-martial convicting how many negligent military? And what of the american’s navy’s own rescue efforts, were they reasonable?
The more paragraphs of explanation about why this historical event wasn’t a big deal one reads, the more it seems like it was a big deal. Why not have the matter properly cleared up, for the sake of the innocent?
But as kdj pointed out thousands of words ago, the Liberty attack is history. History is only important for peace if we can learn from it, and we have very few agreed facts here so frankly that’s unlikely as things stand. The present and future of the ME are indeed more important.
So Vadim, what I should have done, to be a reasonable person, is say nothing or congratulate Israel on her common sense and tranquility. Otherwise I must think its a good idea for arabs to blow things up. I don’t as it happens, of course, leaving that point a little lost on me. As for the “program” you suggest I might be encouraging arabs to abandon, (through my failure to admonish them) that wouldn’t be a negotiated peace program I take it? Now, should I tell arabs to stop complaining? Complaining about a situation is not demanding or promoting a solution. Lots of the former in the comments to this blog and precious little of the later. I guess we are must all be arabs. What is the present problem? Israelis and Palestinians both deserve a sovereign country, with reasonable borders and the killing should stop. That involves everyone putting down their weapons, and that will only happen if all the parties start to talk and agree to quite radical change. But do you think instead that the status quo is good or even viable? If one doesn’t must that mean one is antisemitic? Simple logic provides the answer.
By the way, the Cristol article on HNN was posted on 11 June. http://hnn.us/articles/39936.html. What a terrible thing for the HNN to dredge up the Liberty story again at this time.
You will find the comments section very interesting. One could play a game trying to recongise the writing styles of the commentors.
Here is one comment, quite a nice summary:
“USS Liberty (#110535)
by George Robert Gaston on June 13, 2007 at 2:07 PM
At this point further speculation about Israel’s intent when they attacked the USS Liberty has a very limited utility. Both countries have their stories and they are likely to stick to them. Unreleased information will likely remain unreleased for a good many years.
However, the event’s impact on Israeli American relations, especially military-to-military relations may have an impact for some time.
The fact that Dean Rusk and Richard Helms think the attack was deliberate is one thing. These names change with administrations. They come from the legal/political/academic world, they serve and then they go away and write books.
However, if Louis Tordella or Bobby Inman thought the attack was either deliberate, or a covered up act of criminal negligence it is another matter.
First, they would not have just thought it. They would have seen evidence of it.
Second, they were part of the US intelligence services their entire adult lives, and had great impact on the military intelligence community, the NSA and the CIA. As such, they mentored several generations of leadership within these organizations. In short, their influence extends far beyond their tenure.
I would not expect this to go away.”
By the way, the Cristol article on HNN was posted on 11 June.
How tasteless of them! (???!!!) It’s almost as if he’s responding to Ward Boston’s op-ed of June 8th (ie the article that prompted this thread!
However, if Louis Tordella or Bobby Inman thought…
Just what we need, more 4th hand hearsay and proof-by-opinion! Roland, those cut and pasting skills are serving you well. Salah, you have competition! Fortunately, the data available to both Inman and Tordella is now public through FOIA, so their thoughts (assuming it was fairly represented by this remark) aren’t really germane.
So Vadim, what I should have done, to be a reasonable person, is say nothing or congratulate Israel on her common sense and tranquility.
Roland I think you need to read a little more carefully. What you should have done is assume Israelis already want tranquility without your glib recommendation they ‘start’ some on their own, what with all their military -and perhaps magical- powers. You needn’t congratulate them on their common sense, but implying they lack it is plainly obnoxious.
Otherwise I must think its a good idea for arabs to blow things up. I don’t as it happens, of course, leaving that point a little lost on me.
Actually, my analogy was to a “scolding wrapped in platitude.” I thought that was pretty clear. Oh well.
Correction: the declassified audio that should end this dumb argument forever isn’t on Cristol’s website. It can actually be found here:
http://www.nsa.gov/liberty/recordings.cfm
Let me know if you have a problem with the Hebrew, Roland. We have experts here at ZOG headquarters standing by to help.
Joshua and Vadim-
Blow that Shofar! Blow, you big boys, Blow!
Blow that Shofar!
Hi Stephen! As an Episcopalian, Jewish religious traditions are alien to me. Lucky for me the Zionist conspiracy is a “big tent.” LBJ, Ward Boston, Santa Claus, we’re all in on it.
Ward’s assignment this month was to flush Israel-hating loons into the open with an easily debunked editorial about a Zionist coverup. High Poo-bah Brother Cristol would then deliver the knockout punch two days later in HNN. Boy did it ever work! I think both these gentlemen can expect generous bonuses from the elders this year.
PS — love your show!
Finally Vadim you treated us to a post which, although perhaps not quite as funny as your others, nevertheless was far more informative. Lucky you have friends at ZOG then to help you with your Hebrew, but for english words like “admonish” let’s please stick to the dictionary definition. Its common sense that we should by and large argue in the coventional language of this forum, and not make up our own meanings for words. Just like it makes sense for Israel not to alienate and ridicule every critic, but then you are an an Episcopalian, so why should that matter to you? No doubt you are busy deconstructing Berg as we speak. People not already asleep will be able to find plenty of discussion about the helicopter pilot transcripts recorded so tragicly late in the attack on this American ship.
I think that we can all look up the meaning of the word “admonish”, but I don’t think that this discussion is about symantics.
You and others call for a new investigation into the incident. It would be helpful if someone would point out what new evidence, that wasn’t covered in the previous half dozen official inquiries carried out by the US, warrants such an investigation. As Cristol, and others, point out the only new “evidence” presented – Boston’s assertions – remain mostly controversial hearsay, and we cannot really expect this to change much the outcome of any future investigation. One is left with the feeling that it is not the scope, thoroughness, or truth of the investigation that are in question, but rather the conclusions, and that those who have decided (again based on what evidence?) that this was somehow an intentional attack covered up by the US really just want to keep on asking the same question until they get the answer they want. Perhaps an investigation carried out by Oliver Stone with Ramsey Clarke as chief counsel would do the trick?
People not already asleep will be able to find plenty of discussion about the helicopter pilot transcripts recorded so tragicly late in the attack on this American ship.
I find this point extremely interesting. Someone can accept a statement from Boston about what Admiral Kidd purportedly reported to him in conversation about what Lyndon Johnson supposedly said or implied – statements that can neither be verified nor refuted – but dismisses documentary evidence based on the fact that it was “recorded…late in the attack”. However, the timing of the recordings is precisely what is so important to the conclusions one might draw from this piece of evidence: Even after the attack had ceased, the air controllers (likely the same controllers who had dispatched the earlier fighter bombers) were still unaware or uncertain that this was actually an American ship. Having both listened to the recordings and read the transcripts, this is quite clear, to me at least.
As to your bringing up the film “Munich”, I would very much like to know what the relevance is here, particularly what is the relevance of the fact that this was directed by someone of “Jewish descent”? (It’s also worth mentioning that the accuracy of the book upon which this movie was based has been highly criticized by those who were actually involved in the operations following the brutal murders carried out at the Olympic Village and in the Munich airport.)
Just to clarify, I brought up the 1973 murder of Cleo Noel in relation to the USS Liberty incident because of the obvious parallels with what people here (and Boston) claim concerning the latter. There is evidence that the US government knew, and covered up the fact that, not only Fatah, but Yassir Arafat personally, were directly involved in the planning and carrying out of the murder of two US diplomats in Khartoum. A declassified State Department memorandum from the time concludes that:
“The Khartoum operation was planned and carried out with the full knowledge and personal approval of Yasir Arafat, Chairman of the Palestine Liberation Organization (PLO), and the head of Fatah. Fatah representatives based in Khartoum
participated in the attack, using a Fatah vehicle to transport the terrorists to the Saudi Arabian Embassy.”
http://www.state.gov/documents/organization/67584.pdf
Yet despite this fact, no investigation was ever carried out, and the US subsequently pumped hundreds of millions of dollars into the very same Fatah-controlled PA (and, according to some reports, into the bank accounts of Yassir Arafat. But that is a matter for a Palestinian investigation).
So, if one had been following the discussion here, and was cognizant of the Khartoum incident, I think they would have to ask exactly who has “muzzled” public consideration in the case of Cleo Noel and George Curtis Moore?
Which brings me to KDJ’s interesting post, where he says:
For many,that makes those of us who see things this way, the target of underhanded, whiny adjectives. The way I see things, is that our Foreign AID budget, is my foreign aid budget. Not the POSSESSION, nor the unequivocal ENDOWMENT of AIPAC’s. So, THANK YOU for allowing me to learn from all of you. I carry on with my lobbying. This is my foreign policy-NOT AIPAC’s.
I would ask on what basis you can imply that US foreign policy – including US foreign aid – today belongs in some way to AIPAC, or that AIPAC somehow creates and controls a foreign policy that counters what the majority of the other owners of that policy desire. You are entitled to hold another view and to do what you want to counter AIPAC arguments (or those of many other Americans). But to make the assertion that AIPAC, or its supporters, see US foreign policy as an “unequivical endowment” without substantitating this is, well, simply whining (and perhaps a bit underhanded), in my view.
To Stephen Colbert:
I think we can find something for you to blow as well. Also, I’m pretty certain we can suggest a place for you to blow it out of!
Memo to Helena: Feel free to snip this after you’ve snipped Mr. Colbert’s insulting remarks.
Friends JES and others.
I have been reading more than a year and commenting here, in most of the posts I found we never reached to agreement on subjects that we discussed here.
This brings to me where are we now? What we are thinking? Who is right and wrong?
JES, I knew most of Jews have their stories and hardship of live in different places around the world, but from 50 years ago you (Jews) they got the land that they waiting so long dreaming to live on, if we here normal people and different, most the time argue about subject and in most of the cases you and other friends keep in same side whatever that is and facing other friend here who are from different lands, culture but they speak what they think is a common scenes, but we found that you and your friends keep their gun and never been helpful to be accepting or discussing the subject to get to agree on main lines of our argument in our discussions.
I know that you have your worry and sensitivity what’s your nation had for the past 5000 years but hay we are normal people here no one hold us any responsibility or ask us to lead a nation, if we can not make some formal agreements in one subject and we keep two side throwing words each over other how on earth we argue thos leaders and officials to get things sorted out and behid them millions of people waiting for the good from them?
So where we are now, if we keeping this attitude what will be our discussion here? It’s useless and boring if we think we are open minded people looking to the bright side of our lifes on this earth so what we are doing for that goal?
Forgive me friends I don’t say we are right and you are wrong every one have his rights to hold his views but in the end where we can meet in the middle to get out of the crossroads.
So please guys just think with yourself and look forward to be more friendly and open minds people that we understand the need for peace and love that keep those criminals who did harmed the Jews in the past and now and in future those are the same criminals who killing Iraqis now and they are same criminals who is killing Palestinians under whatever name they choose but they are killers and criminals simply they killing humans.
God Bless.
Look that righteously indignant Israeli thing is just SO 20th Century. Yes of course JES, I now see why there must not be a proper investigation, because in the absence of new evidence to find or disputed evidence to resolve it would only confirm that Israel authored the longest friendly fire incident in modern maritime history, and the US navy failed to properly rescue its men, and someone is accountable for the carnage. I can well understand your unwillingness to see such vindication. What if the innocent had their names cleared, and the demented conspiracy theorists with their “Show me the WMD” T-Shirts had to skulk off back to their squalid tenements? But loving formal hearings as I do I’d also be keen to see one on 1973 murder of Cleo Noel if it was possibly as you suggest. And happy to see further discussion of that event.
I admonished Israel. Then Vadim ridiculed and you admonished me, and you’re quite an admonisher I’ve noted over the years. Vadim and ridicule are likewise no strangers. Me I’m very reticent about it all. Shouldn’t be allowed, but who can stop us and after all people are dying in this miserable mess every day. At least we are clear on what we are doing, semantically.
I have to admit I’d really like to see all the attempted communications of all parties to the combined forces attack on the USS Liberty over those two hours laid out, analyzed and compared in a proper hearing. Quite a bit to go through and plenty of gaps to fill. Come one, you have to wonder why the guys on the boat didn’t get on the radio the minute after they were first strafed. Oh, that’s right the US naval frequencies were jammed and the boat was napalmed. Well then, what did the Israelis think when they hailed American naval frequencies and for some reason found them jammed? Oh but then why would they hail American naval frequencies, when they hadn’t made a formal war room identification of it as a US ship in oh, how many hours was it? Good of them to try contacting the ship anyway as they recorded doing. Anyway these various attackers had now come to decide after multiple close passes on that gently breezy, sunny day that it was a rusty Egyptian horse transport about half the size of the boat they had positively IDd not long before as the Liberty. Possibly flying a false American , or Soviet flag, or most definitely none at all. Vadim is quite right, it’s really far easier to believe the moon is made of snow.
Why does it matter that Steven Spielberg who made “Munich” is jewish? If I make a film about the recent history of the homeland of my faith, does it matter that it has this meaning to me? If the film has a political message, is my personal connection relevant?
But you are quite genuinely right, Salah. Peace be with you. Peace be with anyone, of any race, creed or religion that tries to seek it. And to individuals that embrace annihilation, may they keep that emptiest of treasures only for themselves and also only if their brothers fail to turn them away from it.
Well Roland, I guess it is sooo 20th century to rely on evidence. Is it much more 21st century to base analysis of events on documentaries by Oliver Stone and Michael Moore? Is your righteous indignation more post-modern? So be it.
You’d like to see the communications between the parties laid out. I think that quite a bit has been made available under FOIA. Why don’t you take a look?
As to why they didn’t get on the radio the minute they’d been strafed, well, they did. That’s how the 6th fleet knew about the incident pretty early on. It’s also one of the many contradictions and sleights of hand in the BBC “documentary”: One crewman said that everything was jammed from the start, while the officer in charge of communications said that they were able to get out an SOS because his men strung wire to replace the destroyed antennas. Well, both can’t be right, can they? But that’s just one example.
I think that any political film might be affected by the political or other affiliations of the director. That’s why docudramas such as “Munich” should not be viewed as history, but rather as entertainment.
In the final analysis, no one has presented a plausible reason as to why Israel would attack a US ship. Further, no one has presented a plausible explanation of why they didn’t use more effective means from the outset to sink the ship, if that was the pre-planned intent. (According to Michael Oren’s research, they used napalm because when the alert came, the air controllers re-routed fighter bombers that were enroute to Sinai to provide air support.)
I really have nothing against still another investigation. Personally, I think that a fair and impartial investigation based on the evidence would probably result in the same conclusions that the previous half dozen did. And I also think that, again, those who didn’t like the answers would continue demand re-asking the questions.
Roland my dear friend, ‘admonish’ is usually given as a synonym to ‘scold.’ Maybe you had some other meaning in mind that seems less pedantic. I think we all know what ‘glib’ means, and admonishing a nation under seige to use common sense ; to use their upper hand to start a bit of tranquility might be regarded as ‘glib’ by reasonable people, just as admonishing starving peasants to eat cake (or Palestinians to “get with the program”) is glib & patronising.
As an aside, the Liberty controversy has nothing to do with promoting peace between Israel and its neighbors. I’d appreciate an up front acknowledgement of this fact, or an explanation for why you think it might. If it were determined that Moshe Dayan ordered the attack personally, it would say nothing meaningful about today’s I/P conflict. Its only purpose is to smear both the Israeli and the US governments – not only those in power 40 years ago, but every single one since. So please, don’t try to feign disinterest here. It’s embarrassing, (and I mean that as a friendly admonishment, in the formal sense.) If anything attests to the bad faith of Israel’s detractors, its this very discussion.
I have to admit I’d really like to see all the attempted communications of all parties to the combined forces attack on the USS Liberty over those two hours laid out, analyzed and compared in a proper hearing.
And as you’d know (having read Cristol’s HNN piece) every audio intercept known to the US intelligence services, every word of testimony from Liberty crewmen, all the data that has been scrupulously analyzed over decades by the US and Israeli governments at multiple hearings is now declassified and open to the public under the FOIA. What you’re interested in is a historical re-enactment, like the hobbyists who convene to re-enact Civil War battles in full historical garb. Only none of them pretend the South might one day prevail at Gettysburg.
Vadim and JES,
Actually I claim Hassidic ancestry on my Mum’s side, and athiest Sephardi Maoist-mixed-with-Shining Path Incan nativism on my Pop’s side. We do blow beautiful Shofar music, dudes!
Keep up the vigil here at JWN!! You guys rock. Anyone who raises the slightest question about Israel, you pounce on them like powerful carniverous pumas. Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr!
This conspiracy theorizing about the USS Liberty is as bogus as those who dare question the fact that Ariel Sharon (may the AC/DC electrical current preserve his vegetable brain!) is a Man of Peace. Just look at how peaceful this guy is in his hospital bed. He should win a Nobel Peace prize, he is so calm and serene!
Those conspiracy nuts will doubt anything: Israel never expelled the Palestinians in ’48-’49, the refugees left voluntarily; Israel never plotted attacks on US offices in Cairo in the early 1950s to frame Nasser, those Egyptians made scapegoats of Jews; Israel had no interest in starting the Suez War in ’56, it was set up by anti-Semites in the British government; Israel had no plans to occupy Jerusalem and the West Bank in June 1967, it was forced to defend itself against vicious assaults by King Hussein’s army…on and on.
Israel is never guilty of anything. The assault on the USS Liberty was not an intentional act to disable and destroy the ship’s surveillance equipment. Oy vay, grandma Schneetzer used to play guilt trips like that on me! Jewish grandmums are perhaps the biggest purveyors of anti-Semitic scape-goating in the world. That’s why only big boys like us get to blow the shofar!
Blow, boys, blow!!!
Stephen Colbert just a new nuts here…
Those conspiracy nuts will doubt anything: Israel never expelled the Palestinians in ’48-’49, the refugees left voluntarily; Israel never plotted attacks on US offices in Cairo in the early 1950s to frame Nasser, those Egyptians made scapegoats of Jews; Israel had no interest in starting the Suez War in ’56, it was set up by anti-Semites in the British government…
Well Mr. Colbert, only problem with your rant is that Israel has admitted to all of these things and no one claims that these are simply the rants of conspiracy nuts. (Re. HM King Hussein’s activities in June 1967, no one seriously doubts that Israel tried to keep him out and that the Legion initiated hostilities by shelling Jerusalem and the Sharon. HM himself admitted the mistake of his actions.)
As for those who spawned you, I really don’t give a damn. You can geh waxen wie a tsiboleh and blow it out your Hasidic-Sepharadi-Maoist corn hole for all I care!
“Israel has admitted to all of these things”
JES-
Nice double-speak!
I picked up your reference — “no one seriously doubts (except all those conspiracy nuts),” in the next line. I forgot we learned that in the Hasbara training manual.
You are a master, JES, a real propagandist puma. Grrrrrrrrrrrrr!!
“geh waxen wie a tsiboleh”
I will get Grandmum Schneetzer to translate that for me. She salutes you for your fine service to the State of the Chosen Ones.
Salah-
Thanks for the update!
Grrrrrr! I like that. And just like pumas, we pick out the weakest of the herd.
Have a nice life.
JES-
I am on your side. Why do you push me away? I am afraid you are losing it my Zionist brother. We propaganda pumas must stick together.
The climate is getting hot out there, and the seas are rising. Our Israeli homeland is surrounded by hostile forces all around. Hamastan to the left, al-Aqsa to the right, and Hizbollah on top. We are so screwed. Can’t someone wake Arik!
Sure, sometimes the pressure is enough for us to crack. You know, go kooky and slip into that paranoid parallel universe where peace loving Quakers seem like the real enemies. They may say we should love our enemies, seek peace and justice, and live together as one. But these are just voices in your head, JES, so don’t listen!
Maybe, you need to take a break again, go for a vacation and get some rest. I could ask Uncle Siggie to schedule you another appointment. He is so passe, though. I say you just need to relax for a day, and blow that Shofar. Blow, JES, blow!!! I will let you borrow my Shofar, if yours is not working.
Blow, JES, Blow!!!
that paranoid parallel universe where peace loving Quakers seem like the real enemies
What a crazy alternate universe JES must live in! Because nothing says “love thine enemy” like rehashing a 40 year old conspiracy theory! Understanding Zionist perfidy in all its awful dimensions is critical to achieving peace in the Middle East — Zionists suck big time! And why do those sneaky warmongering bastards with their illegitimate state see enemies behind every tree? It’s mystifying.
Comedy gold, Stephen. Why do you save your best material for the web — please keep it coming!
Vadim, my man!
Brilliant! You and JES are both brilliant. Your IQs must be off the charts, and you put it to such terrific use! This is why I log on to JWN: to get sparkling new ideas for my hit cable television show by following Hasbara masters like yourselves. Are you boys related, or did you just attend the same Zionist youth camps?
America is such a better country for being able to join with Israel in this “war on terrorism.” What would we have done after the Cold War, once we finished trampling the Commies just like we did the Fascists in the 1940s? Far better to be battling Muslims the next forty years, so we can ensure the historic claim of the Chosen Ones to the Holy Land!
I must agree with you, Vadim, the way Zionism mixes religion and politics is such fun, isn’t it? I get such a head rush, it makes me giddy!! Super whooooshhhh!! Back at the founding conference in Basel it always did seem hypocritical to select the Holy Land when we championed a secular world outlook. But look how the plan has turned out. Hypocrisy? It just does not matter when you get to speak Truthiness.
I am with you two Hasba-bros! High fives!! We can be hypocritical double-talking propagandists, and it simply does not matter because we have so much fun being Truthy. And now in the twenty first century the world is so much better off because everyone on the planet is pursuing religious national crusades. The Muslims are in full jihad mode. Even the Hindus and Buddhists are in the game, and American evengelists are marching with Jews from DC to Jerusalem!
By the way, Vadim, we do not suck the Shofar. We blow. Blow, Vadim, blow!!!
You know what I find really funny? The fact that our young man has chosen such a mediocre comic as his role model. Wouldn’t Lennie Bruce’s handle (not to mention my own) served as a more tasteful and impressive pseudonym? But then, I imagine he’s too young to know what I’m talking about.
My little ones, Vadim and JES,
Mort Salt and Lenny Bruce, one a big loud mouth and the other a sniveling drug addict, are fitting pseudonyms for the two of you, since both men are passe and of no importance today.
Crawl back under your rocks before Jah Rastaman squishes you like the tiny insignificant critters that you are.
The temperature is hot outside and the oceans are rising, so the injustice of Zionism will soon be washed away like the apartheid policies of the old South Africa.
You better get used to what is coming!
Sumud al-Haqq