Thoughts on traveling to London

1.  Israel the microcosm

The day before yesterday, in the evening, I went to bed in Cairo. 
We woke at 1 a.m., in time to catch a ‘graveyard shift’ flight to
Frankfurt, arriving at breakfast time.  Bill headed over to
Prague; our friend Brantly who had been visiting us in Cairo headed
home to Virginia; and I came to London, arriving before noon.

Traveling as we did so (relatively) easily between these countries, and
traversing as we had to the numerous movement-control barriers they maintain–
generally at or near their international airports, or international
borders– I suddenly had a vivid sense that the extremely discriminatory
and damaging movement-control systems Israel maintains in the land it
controls in the West Bank and Gaza may well (and quite rightly) be
criticized by the good, liberal citizens of the rich countries of the
west…  But actually, the international order over which these
same western citizens preside  is also, itself, in many ways just
a larger version of the system Israel has maintained in the occupied
territories.

Consider this:


1. As is the case between Israelis and
Palestinians in the tiny discriminatory system that Israel maintains in
the area that it currently controls, so in the rich-country-dominated
global system it is far, far easier for the citizen of a rich western
country to travel around the world– both to countries in the
income-poor world and to other countries in the income-rich world, than
it is for the citizen of an income-poor country to travel
anywhere!  The barriers are not only ones of cost.  They are
also, crucially, the highly discriminatory barriers maintained at the
international borders of all countries.  For the rich countries,
one of the main real goals of these barriers is to prevent an ‘influx’
of people from income-poor countries, many of whom might– horror of
horrors!– actually be coming there in search of a livelihood that
could save their families from a life of starvation, poverty-induced
sickness, and despair…

2. In this rich-country-dominated global system, just as in the much
smaller discriminatory system maintained by Israel, the rationale
usually offered for these administrative barriers is usually that
catch-all rationale of “security”.  But that pretext is far too
often used to veil the many other ways in which this border-control and
movement-control system maintains a system of gross economic inequality
bordering on economic plundering.  For Israel, the occupied
Palestinian territories are a captive market– or rather, they have now
been divided into some 50 tiny captive markets, since Palestinian goods
cannot move freely even between the different portions of the West Bank
into which Israel’s movement-control system has divided the territory–
let alone between the West Bank and Gaza.  Therefore, Palestinian
food-processing and manufacturing is completely unable to compete with
Israeli ventures in these fields… Similarly, the present,
rich-country-dominated global economic system is also extremely
discriminatory against income-poor countries, as manifested in two
interlocking and highly discriminatory facets of the system: first, the
truly inhumane subsidies that the US and EU give their farmers, which
push hundreds of thousands of farmers in income-poor countries out of a
living; and second, the rule-making system for global trade that, under
the WTO, is similarly dominated by rich countries.

3.  Most of the modern-day wealth of the income-rich countries was itself founded on the massive
pillaging of the wealth of non-European peoples in the earlier,
colonial era, and on their involvement in the transtlantic trade in
enslaved Africans.  After the victory of the struggles to
dismantle those very violent and anti-humane systems, the income-rich
countries continued to dominate many aspects of the politics of the
income-poor countries through a number of mechanisms including (a)
dominating the world economic system, and insisting that the newly
independent poor countries remain tied closely into it; (b) refusing–
of course!– to entertain any real thought of providing reparations for
the vast ‘takings’ they had extracted from the citizenries of the poor
countries during past centuries; and (c) dividing up the newly
independent countries wherever possible into tiny, mutually competitive
political units, a move that both minimized their aggregate negotiating
power and also allowed for considerable continued rich-country
intervention along the ‘international’ borders that thereby
emerged.  There are many parallels with Israel’s various moves
inside the OPTs, including its division of the West Bank into tiny
canton/prisons separated by Israeli-controlled movement-control bariers.

4.  Israel claimed it had ‘withdrawn’ from Gaza.  But it
still tries to maintain an entire control system around Gaza’s borders,
and to use that control system to force the Palestinian Authority to
bow completely to its own (highly discriminatory) political
demands.  The former European colonial countries claim they
withdrew completely (or nearly completely) from their former colonial
holdings.  But they continue to try to use their control of the
global political and economic system to exercise effective
political  control over the policy positions of the newly
‘independent’ income-poor countries, and of course to fend off any
claims about reparations for the takings and destruction of the
colonial era.

… So I guess what I’m saying is that we citizens of rich western
countries should, certainly, continue to criticize the highly
discriminatory, coercive, and harmful mechansism of control that Israel
maintains towards (or rather, over) the Palestinians…  But at
the same time we should also be aware of the many, very analogous
systems of control and economic exploitation that our own countries
maintain at the global level– systems whose functioning is often, as
in Israel, justified in the name of ‘security’–and we should also work hard to
dismantle those systems, too.

2.  Coming back to London

Yesterday, the weather here was lovely.  There are a few daffodils
blooming in the beautiful, tranquil garden behind my room here. 
Yesterday, I walked two or three miles through central London– partly
because I wanted to re-connect myself more effectively with the
geography of the city. 

I have spent various short lengths of time here ever since the late
1960s, when I used to sneak out of my boarding school in Reading and
come here for periodic illicit weekend visits.  Then, when I was
at Oxford, I would come down for various demonstrations, learning a
particular, well-trodden route from Speakers’ Corner in Hyde Park down
to Trafalgar Square.  My three elder sisters all worked for
lengthy periods in London, so as the kid sister, I would come here from
time to time to visit them and tag along with their specific portions
of the city… 

I did try to live here, briefly, for nine months in 1981.  My
first marriage was breaking up; my career was in considerable
disarray– not least because it took me a while to figure that
journalism is a calling that not only is completely dominated by men,
but also that it was (then, and perhaps still is) extremely hard to
coordinate the demands of journalism– crazy deadlines, inflexible
editors, etc– with the demands of being a single parent. My kids from
my first marriage were two and three years old that year.

The only place I could afford to live was a small house out in
Southall, not far from Heathrow airport.  Getting into town to any
meetings with editors, or to do interviews, or whatever, involved a
long bike ride to a tube station (I’m thinking Osterley Park) and then
some 45 minutes or more of slow, clanking journey by tube.  Plus,
did I mention my mariage was falling part?  It was not a great
time in my life.  Plus, coming back ‘home’ to England after living
in Lebanon for seven years proved much harder than I thought. 
Plus, plus, plus…

Going to the US– where Harvard offered me a fellowship to write my
book about the PLO– seemed like a good idea.

Since then, I’ve come back to London for various short conferences or
meetings, usually staying with my best friend from Oxford, Bridget
Rosewell, who lives in East Putney.  But for years and years and
years there I was also involved in various elder-care things, making
visits to and decisions regarding the care of, respectively, my
godmother Aunty Freda Williams, the aunt who raised me, Katy Cobban,
and my father James Cobban.  All of that was in the West Country,
where two of my sisters live.  So often I wouldn’t really spend
much time in London at all– just whirl through, have a couple of
nights with Bridget– then head down to Somerset and Dorset.

This time, I decided to stay in central, central London.  I’m here
for around a month. Yay!!!  I’m a stone’s throw from the British
Museum, staying at a really fabulous Quaker club I discovered. 
Yesterday, I could walk
to a meeting at Chatham House, on St. James’s Square.  At 6:45
this morning I ran to
Green Park.  Tomorrow I shall walk to a meeting at
Canada House.  I shall use automated transport as little as
possible…  (Tube out to Putney to see Bridget next Monday is all
I can currently foresee.) And it feels great.

Okay, full disclosure time.  This morning I got a bit lost on the
way back from Green Park and the drizzle started thickening into
something like real rain…  I thought, “Hey, Helena, why not take
the tube for a couple of stops and get back to the club dryer and more
quickly than by walking?”  I did.  Those two stops costs me–
gasp!!!– four pounds. 
All the more reason to try to walk everywhere I can, weather
permitting, I think.

Four pounds is now just over US$8.00.  Unbelievable (both the
price of that tube ticket in pounds, and the exchange rate.)

Anyway, to finish that story– okay, I know there’s no really narrative
thread here; but bear with me– I actually hadn’t run prior to that
since January 31st.  Or perhaps, the 30th.  Anyway, shortly
before we left home for Cairo.  In the interim, in Cairo, Jordan,
and Syria, every morning, quite faithfully, I would get up and do a
20-minute yoga routine that I worked out for myself at the urging of my
daughters, both of whom are fairly strong yoga fanatics. 
(Oh!  I miss my kids!!!)  I got to enjoy doing the yoga quite
a lot, and could feel how it was starting to increase both my
flexibility and my ability to balance.  (I do a pretty good Tree
Pose and even a fairly good Eagle Balance… but many of the poses my
aged joints are really just quite incapable of doing.  Still, I
try, I try!)

So anyway, now that I’m in London and I feel fairly comfortable about
road-running again, I think I’ll alternate: run one morning, then do
yoga the next.  I know you really wanted to have that degree of
insight into my life.

I was happy to find that I had lost very little of my running ability
over the past month.  Maybe a little on the speed?  Which
never was that high to start with, anyway… I do still need to find a
decent running route, however.  Round and round Bloomsbury Square
perhaps??  Nah, too boring.  The trouble with the route I
took this morning was too darn’ much vehicular traffic.

3. Coming back to London, part 2

Hugh Thomas’s book The Slave Trade
has completely changed the way I look at European cities.

Among the fine institutions of the liberal En-‘light’-enment in Europe,
it is not only the Mauritshuis in The Hague– one of my favorite art
galleries of all time!– that was marked by being established
overwhelmingly with the profits its founder had made by investing the
transatlantic trade of enslaved human persons.

When we were in London last summer, we had a quick visit to the British
Museum.  I walked quickly past all the great aretfacts of various
civilizations that the British looters had pried completely out of
their context and away from their own successor societies, and carted
off as pillage here to London– vast Sumerian bas-reliefs, the Rosetta
stone, the Parthenon Marbles, etc– and I picked up a little brochure
the museum had produced detailing the achievements of the
En-‘light’-enment.  Mainly, these were described in terms of
classifying and cataloguing both natural phenomena and the artefacts of
earlier civilizations.  I think in any such venture there is not
only expropriation of the cultures and riches of others, but also the
urge to dominate and control.  It was not only the value-neutral
acquisition of knowledge that those successive generations of European
“explorers” and botanists and geologists sought, but the acquisition by “our” people (usually
the European investors and governments who had sent out those exploring
missions) of knowledge that would be specifically useful in a project
to expropriate, dominate, and control.

(And anyway, let us not forget that the indigenous people of those
targeted countries– who themselves also became subjected to the urge
to classify, and categorize, and control– already, previously, had
considerable funds of their own well-organized knowledge of the flora,
fauna, geology, and geography of their domains.  It is not that
that knowledge did not exist before the intrepid White Man came and
acquired it!)

Being back in London this time, and reconnecting with its built
environment as I am doing, is a bittersweet thing.

46 thoughts on “Thoughts on traveling to London”

  1. For your Tube trips in London, you need to get an Oyster card. Each journey is half the price. But still grossly expensive.

  2. I wish we were working on a solution for the Israeli/Palestinian problem. I believe we need not fear the inevitable Iranian nuclear bombs, IF there is no legitimate reason to use them.
    Here is my comprehensive solution :
    Palestine & Israel solution SEP06
    The Palestinian/Israeli problem is the core of the MidEast Troubles. Without a solution here, there will be no solutions anywhere in the area. Without dwelling on history, I will go directly to the solution.
    First, Jerusalem becomes an International City and the Israeli capital is re-acknowledged as Tel Aviv. The Palestinians name their own capital.
    Second, Israel pulls back to the pre-1967 borders.
    Thirdly, the area of Jerusalem is physically defined to form many functions :
    – The city will become host to most large-scale UN functions.
    – Jerusalem will have a local security force and a UN security force of limited scope.
    – The borders will be maintained by Israel and Palestine, either in tandem or separately.
    – There will be an International airport.
    – The area will be large enough to be physically defended and observe adjacent areas.
    – The area will control the major highland aquifers, and oversee per capita national allocations.
    – The area will allow a transnational journey by either nationality. By passing through Jerusalem, an Israeli transits N/S, and a Palestinian travels E/W. This allows Palestine to have international borders with Jordan and Egypt, but not Syria or Lebanon, respecting current treaties and civilities.
    The area will be a duty/tax free area, and the allocated ownership will be dispersed to the “right to return” Palestinians, the displaced Israeli colonists, and all who have lost their homes. Internal agriculture (because of crowded conditions) will also be “eminent domained”, the owners compensated and they and the land are included in the allocation.
    The Jerusalem area should be as small as possible, hence the agricultural exclusion. The land should be Israeli or Palestinian, as much as possible.
    Jerusalem will be a service, marketing and manufacturing zone. Each family unit will be prorated by size, then entered into a lottery for both a plot of residential land and a plot of commercial value. The allocations will be random to negate ghettoes and insularity. The residential and UN infrastructure will be internationally funded and built immediately. The residents will have startup funding of some sort. The residents of Jerusalem will have ownership, equity, involvement, and potential.
    They, and the UN personnel, will not abide terrorism, and will self-police effectively. The key to controlling terrorism is to remove the cause and the base. This will do both. This is a step towards World Peace.

  3. Hi, Helena.
    Putting your current reading on the slave trade together with your Friendly nature, I wonder whether you’ve seen Marshall Massey’s blogging re The First Friends and Slavery?
    http://journal.earthwitness.org/the-ew-journal/2006/12/21/the-first-friends-and-slavery.html
    *
    If I may, I’d like to pull over a comment I made on one of Scott’s posts, mistakenly thinking it was yours, and repost it here for your consideration:
    I am just now reading your piece on religious violence, a topic of deep interest to me, and noted two references to Trevor Huddleston CR. Trevor became my guardian when I was about eleven, and was a constant source of encouragement and inspiration to me, as to so many others.
    I find myself very curious about the fact that Trevor, while loving peace, was not a pacifist, and wonder if I might correspond with you, within limits that respect your time and patience, about the intersection of ANC, Gandhian and Friends’ perspectives?
    *
    With warm regards…

  4. Lebanon offensive was pre-planned: Olmert
    “Jerusalem, Mar 08: Under fire for his handling of last year’s Lebanon war, Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert has said he had decided on a military operation in case of a kidnapping along the Lebanese border four months prior to the breakout.
    Appearing before Winograd Commission, which is probing the 34-day war, perceived as a failure here, he said the contingency plans for military action were made as early as March 2006, four months before the kidnapping of two Israeli soldiers that led to the war against Hezbollah, Israeli daily ‘Ha’aretz’ reported today. “
    To JES, Vadim and others come on and tell us you’re mangling of this war and your excuses for POW, is they Israeli send them to this mission or what?

  5. Salah,
    I suggest you look up in the dictionary what “contingency plan” means. Further, to assume that Hizballah might kidnap Israeli soldiers was not at all unwarranted. Less than a year before the kidnapping that led to the war, Hizballah had sent a large number fighters over the border to Ghajar to try and kidnap soldiers. Fortunatey, in that instance the Hizballah “fighter” got their clock cleaned by a platoon of paratroopers.

  6. after a long while reading eagerly but not commenting, i’m thrilled enough by the first section of this to want to put tuppence in again…
    helena writes, in conclusion:
    But at the same time we should also be aware of the many, very analogous systems of control and economic exploitation that our own countries maintain at the global level – systems whose functioning is often, as in Israel, justified in the name of ‘security’ – and we should also work hard to dismantle those systems, too.
    yes, clearly what we see around the cement and razorwire walls in the eastern mediterranean and in southwestern north america (which is to say, cutting across palestine and aztlan) are microcosms which make plain certain aspects of the systems which presently rule the world.
    but the ability to name those synchronized “systems of control and economic exploitation” is crucial to our ability to dismantle them. one, its strongest proponents agree, is called capitalism.
    another, though, is much more blatantly visible through the israeli government’s actions. it is not something external to “our countries”, which “maintain” it. it is the state structures which those countries are.
    states, by definition, are systems of border control which exert a monopoly on ‘legitimate’ violence within those borders. you can’t do away with borders, and with the ‘legitmate’ violence that constructs and enforces them – which kills thousands in the deserts of aztlan, off the coast of the maghreb, and in occupied palestine – without dismantling the system of states as a way of organizing human life.
    states (as well as capitalism and likely more so) feed and are fed by the nationalisms, the white supremacy, the patriarchies (both misogynistic and homophobic), and the religious conservatisms which are more directly responsible for violence in our world. states, to maintain legitimacy and some level of popular support, foster and mobilize these ideologies to deadly result. and the ideologies take the blame, which, toxic as they are, they do not entirely deserve – without a state’s standing army and propaganda machinery and a state border to define territory as exclusive property, the idea of turkish ethnic purity and supremacy, for instance, can do little (and what it can do can be defended against); with a state? genocide.
    so, helena (and my fellow admirers of helena), i hope you’ll continue the effort you spell out in this piece – but continue it with a focus on the system whose attributes you so adeptly analyze.

  7. I am wondering, JES, how a full-scale assault on an entire country is justifiable? Really, let us not delude ourselves into thinking that this was in fact only about the 1 soldier kidnapped (in Lebanese territory)-I appreciate Helena’s analysis, indeed it certainly seemed that Hezbollah’s rocket fire appeared to increase the suffering and legitimacy of Israel’s brutal assault [a friend explained that Hezbollah’s rockets were intended to drag the IDF into a ground war so as to stop the air assault] on the entire country (except for the areas controlled by Samir Gagea), however, without a doubt the entire country was under siege. The oil spill? How is that justifiable?
    One can understand on a human level how in fact all human beings yearn for peace and freedom from armed conflict, however, I am loathe to find any true human justification for what Israel did to Lebanon? Do you really belive massive bombing brings about a desire for peace with one’s neighbors? Rather, I believe this assault ensured that sentiments for peace remain tragically, very far away.

  9. KDJ,
    First of all, I suggest that you look at the post to which I was responding, in which Salah implied that Israel somehow set up its own soldiers to be kidnapped. I would also point out to you that there were two soldiers abducted and that both, by every reasonable account (including that of one of the perpetrators) were kidnapped in Israeli territory, and that the initial assault included katyusha attacks on Israeli civilian targets.
    As far as your friend’s observation on Hizballah’s rocket fire, I find the excuse rather amusing.
    Now, KDJ, let me ask you to step aside from your obvious romantic notions about Hizballah and tell me how anything can justify their actions that were almost certain to bring a violent response from Israel, not to mention their direct attacks on Israeli citizens. Do you really believe that such aggressive and violent actions bring peace any closer?

  10. JES,
    ” Salah implied that Israel somehow set up its own soldiers to be kidnapped. I would also point out to you that there were two soldiers abducted”
    JES don’t read me wrong, by putting your words in my mouth.
    I am questioning the incident of these two solders? Do I have the right to do that or not JES?
    This is very valid question after the revealed info and attention about the war it was planed before the kidnapping incident, back to early Israeli excuses for 33dayes war what all the world understand the war to realise those kidnapped solders, there was no mentioned of any other reasons or causes than that at a time before the breakout.
    However we knew there are some acts by both sides which from time to time raise the pressure not to the level of war to distracting a country! to free two solder.
    All the wars start with incidents or used to launch the war. In this case the kidnapping used scenario JES.
    BTW, do I have right to question this JES?
    From the day the war finished till now, nothing solid tells where those solders , what Israelis trying to do after falling to free them or make a deal to get them back, international community have not spoken at all about them, there are no efforts whatsoever to get them from Hezbollah.
    This also raise another question, Are they in Hizbollah hand? Or there is a hidden deal done?

  11. JES:
    I am always intrigued by the likes of yourself who in fact distort the reality of others to suit your fantasies (i.e. as you put it, my own “romantic notions” about Hezbollah)…is this the kind of trash the likes of yourself tell legislators when we try to advocate for Lebanon? Likely it is.
    I believe you are missing some significant key points here…a. Aita Chaab is Lebanese territory; b. Who was responsible for dropping flyers in South Lebanon claiming that “Hezbollah is hegemonic” well before the pre-planned slaughter of Lebanon? c. Who is responsible for the assassination attempts on Nasrallah well before the war? d. What of the Mossad operations in Lebanon prior to this pre-meditated assault on the entire country (as if bombing Lebanon’s airports, bridges, etc. would help retrieve your soldier-who without question has every right to have ICRC access) e. Have you read George Monbiot’s piece? f. What of Israel’s CONTINUED violations of 1701, its airspace, its raids? Nothing new here. Unfortunatately, Israel continues to undermine its own security and regional image through its constant aggression toward Lebanon.

  14. JES,
    tell us is this girl have the right to live in Holy land and climes that she had linked to the Holy Land?
    How many individuals have same case like Cece Nealon?
    Israelis denied for Palestine thie Right To Returned to their loved land whom lived for thousands of years and for generations
    Cece Nealon-Shapiro is one of many girls adopted from China who are now turning 13 and celebrating a bat mitzvah.
    * Chinese Orphan’s Journey to Jewish Rite of Passage

  17. Salah:
    I am critical of Hezbollah, and believe that Helena’s analysis is right on target-the Israelis thought they would “win” over the people of Lebanon by destroying Lebanon-and Nasrallah sought his divine victory knowing full well the capacity of the IDF. However, are you advocating for the assassination of Nasrallah? Would their not be someone else who would take his place? Perhaps more radical? Helena posted something on this forum regarding this already. I guess if some Lebanese want to bring their own country into further turmoil through such actions (assassination squads of all sorts are in Lebanon, inclusive and not exclusive of the Mossad)…This I will never understand. The assassination of political leaders is a terrible tactic-do we not all remember the assassination of Rabin? And the further radicalization which followed? Surely most Lebanese remember Netanyahu?
    When I read Helena’s piece on this, I wrote several legislators urging them not to allow this to happen…Hezbollah leaders have been assassinated before…and replaced as well. Same thing with Hamas. Israel, don’t you get it?

  19. Dear KDJ,
    I might not be as “enlightened” as you, but I believe I’m smart enough not to accept without question when George Monbiot, or even the entire Guardian staff, piss on my back and try to tell me it’s raining.
    For example, take a look at the list from the Khaim Center that Monbiot cites. Samir Quntar is at the top of the list. Remember, he was arrested in Israel and convicted of killing four Israelis, including three civilians, two of whom were small girls. That’s why he’s serving four life sentences. And this is the same Samir Quntar that Nasrallah publicly proclaimed, inshallah, he will be hugging and welcoming home very, very, very, very soon. And the second “detainee” on the list, Nasim Nimr? Well, correct me if I’m wrong, but as I recall this young man was arrested while trying to smuggle drugs into Israel. These are the people who, according to Monbiot, if only we’d freed we might have avoided the kidnapping and resulting war.
    Monbiot also cites the Geneva accords relating to POWs. But Hizballah, as well as the Syrians and Iranians in whose interest Hizballah has been a willing proxy, are serial violators of the most basic rights guaranteed to POWs, from Sultan Yaqub, to Ron Arad, and right through to the current captives, whose families have been denied even the basic “sign of life”.
    And then there is the issue of Israel’s war plans. Sure Israel had plans for dealing with Hizballah; the military and government would have been seriously remiss if they didn’t have such plans. In fact, had Monbiot been paying attention to what Israelis other than Tanya Reinhardt were saying at the time, he would know that one of the chief complaints of the soldiers – and particularly the reservists called up during the war – was that the military and political leadership did not allow them to operate as they had practiced for the past six years. None of this, however, indicates to me that Israel intentionally had its soldiers kidnapped or, somehow, engineered the war. But, then, I’m not as “enlightened” as you and George.

  20. JES,
    “Hizballah, as well as the Syrians and Iranians…., are serial violators of the most basic rights guaranteed to POWs”
    To correct the above to reflect the real “serial violators of the most basic rights guaranteed to POWs”
    “Israel is a serial violators of the most basic rights guaranteed to POWs” and more of human rights of Palestinians.
    “The Shaked Spirit” documentary broadcast a week ago claimed that the commando unit led by Ben-Eliezer during the June 1967 Six Day war had killed 250 Egyptian PoWs in the El-Arish area of the Sinai peninsula.”
    Well, JES this is very simple example of your country of violators of the most basic rights guaranteed to POWs”

    I remember heard this story after the 1967 war when I was in secondary school but we did not saw any evidence that prove that story now its came from your “The Shaked Spirit” documentary
    There is no need for evidences of the Israeli daily violators of the most basic rights” as the news full of images and news tells you very clear that stories like the images of the killing Palestinians boy “Mohammad Al-Durrah” while his father trying protecting him and they had nothing to do of ant insult to your forces who run whiles in Palestinians towns.
    BTW, Hezbollah it’s let out of bottle by you (The djinni is out of the bottle and its never going back in) and helped to grow bigger and bigger?
    Its exactly what we seeing now in Iraq, when US talking about Iran its same scenario they let those Iranian willing proxy in Iraq and same time taking hard about the Iran’s as same as your talking about ” Hezbollah”. No surprise here JES.
    Q: Mr. Rabin, if these are the problems that face the IDF in its battle against terrorists who strike at it – you spoke once about the war having let the Shi’ites out of the bottle – the question arises why the IDF shouldn’t withdraw straight to the international border instead of remaining in large parts of Lebanon where the same process will continue which has just led us to leave 22 percent of the territory we held?

  21. Yes Salah, I’m sure you ate this up with a spoon. However, if you had followed this story a little bit, you would know that the Egyptians blew the whole thing out of proportion, apparently without having actually seen the film. Even Ran Edelis, the film’s producer, admitted that he had wrongly identified those killed as Egyptians (they were Palestinian fedayeen) and, further, that he had used highly misleading photos and footage that misprepresented what had happened. More to the point, Edelis pointed out that there was absolutely no evidence (and nothing shown in the film) that would indicate that the members of Shaked had captured and executed unarmed POWs. Rather, that the 250 had been killed in battle (although some were apparently fleeing when they were killed).
    Now, if we’re going to talk about stories that we’ve heard, I recall hearing from many “eyewitnesses” that, following the prisoner release at the end of the war in 1967, when the Egyptian prisoners were sent back across the canal, the Egyptian forces on the other side opened up with machine guns and killed their own returning prisoners so they couldn’t testify about the defeat. Who knows?

  22. Yes Salah, I’m sure you ate this up with a spoon.
    JES, when you restrain yourself each time you reply with personal and naive thoughts. You eat much more what I eat JES from those criminal leaders along the history of Jewish state Project.
    The reality you need to read your history well and find out how much Sins done by your people and gangs in Palestine.
    Better off replay to other points I posted here and be honest in your reply don’t be selective by try to twist the truths about all issues of Human Rights that done by your state.
    In regards to that incident of those returned prisoners don’t cry like “Crocodile” for them you Israelites kills millions of Arabs from 1948 till now.

  24. JES:
    Again, you begin with presumptions-which are disturbing. Moreover, there remain several, scores of Lebanese disappeared both by the IDF and their proxy militias, as well as Lebanese detained and disappeared by the Syrians and their proxy militias. Let us not pretend that this war was merely about Israel seeking to destoy a country to prove its “mettle”. BTW, Israel had its clock cleaned this time around.
    The question I pose for you is: Why is WAR the only option the Israelis utilize?

  28. KDJ,
    I have never advocated war as the only option. I think that one has to be totally ignorant of the facts or deluded to conclude that it is the only option that Israel utilizes. One might just as well ask why violence is the preferred means utilized by both Hizballah and the various Palestinian militias.
    Further, I never suggested that this war was about “Israel seeking to destoy a country to prove its “mettle”.” Israel neither sought to “destroy a country” nor to “prove its mettle”. My problem with your line of argument (and Monbiot’s) is that you seem to dismiss both the kidnapping of Israeli soldiers (and the apparent murder of the previous soldiers kidnapped) as well as demands for the release of the likes of Samir Quntar as the supposed pretext justifying these acts, while suggesting that Israel should probably have just ignored the bombardment of its civilian population, or simply given in to Hizballah demands.

  29. And KDJ, while we’re asking loaded questions, just how many Syrians have been kidnapped by Hizballah to obtain the release of those detained and disappeared?

  30. …you Israelites kills millions of Arabs from 1948 till now.
    What I find disturbing is not that you say this, but that you apparently really believe it.
    I feel comfort in knowing that I do not possess the rancor toward Arabs that you seem to feel toward Israelis.

  31. What I believe or I think this is relevant here JES, what is important here, due to my English skill not rally good at all, I am not quite putting right in first place.
    But for the records the distraction of Othman empire and the invasions of Arab land by French, Brits Italians, her were no records reported how many Arabs was killed but what we knows as Iraqis that most of Iraqis lost their men fighting with Othman the invaders at that time.
    then that follow by the Brits and other empire invaders controlling the region that not run soft and peacefully just for your info in Iraq the Brits lost 20,000 of their troops, so you need to imagine with all the force and technology they had at that time how much then that troops killed of Iraqis and other this is sample of human looses early 1900.
    Then many wars follow before 1948 and after many wars which cause horrific human loose millions from Arabs due to of Jewish State Project.
    But to your info take your last war in Lebanon the last 72hours Israelis thrown 4 million Cluster bombes!! Just In 72 hours!! what a madness killing machine you are JES…

  32. I feel comfort in knowing that I do not possess the rancor toward Arabs that you seem to feel toward Israelis.
    You don’t need to tell us that, It’s very obvious from your continues denial in most of your posts of any serial violators of human rights, or crimes done to Arabs and Palestine’s defending Israelis criminal actions tells different things.

  33. Your English skills have nothing to do with your assertion that Israelis have killed “millions” since 1948. (And I remind you that many Israelis lost their lives – including nearly 10% of the 1948 Jewish population.)
    I hope you are not suggesting that WWI was fought in the Middle East for the sake of the “Jewish State Project”. But I would remind you that it was the Ottoman Empire that declared war on the allied powers – not the other way around.

  34. It’s clear her you prove by yourself my statement above in one of my posts that you twisting and diverting discussions by taking a personal issue dropping the main core of discussing when you are short of site or hard to defend case. So you use your twist and your thoughts about others from their writing.
    We don’t have here a medical post to read or analysing other personality, the core of our argument here was raised with our friend kdj about Israelis Human Rights and wars against Lebanon and other neighbours.
    Its your right to defend your country, but you defending crimes here and illegal actions towards Humans Rights by dropping main points of our discussion here with very clear examples of your state behaviours towards humans, I am not defending here those states you listed but I included your stat for here series very bad records of Human Rights violation.
    There are many marvellous Israelis citizens who speaking out condemning Israelis records of Human Rights and illegal actions in Palestine for the sack of peace and for sack of human lives.
    JES, its your duty/responsibility with other Israelis to change this if you like really think to be a loving nation between us, and you really looking for a peaceful and final settlement in ME, continuing your ironic thoughts about others and panting them whatever in your mind that not can help whatsoever to enduring your state arguments for peace you need to prove by yourself first to the rest of us your passion for peace and brighter ME.

  36. Jes:
    I was actually said that Hezbollah allows a civil society movement and in fact did not allow them to continue to advocate for the release of their prisoners. Actually, I have worked very hard on the issue of the scores of Lebanese and Palestinian detainees in Syria. Very hard. So again, let us end the presumptions, ok?
    There is no question that Israel launched a massive assault on Lebanon-if it did not want to destroy Lebanon, why did it not turn toward the UN security council rather than opt to declare “an act of war” which Olmert indeed did declare? Nothing is safe in Lebanon…your P.M’s. words. I also said, that Hezbollah’s rockets had to stop as well, as indeed as Helena very aptly wrote, that the rockets fired into Northern Israel indeed justified and brought furhter harm to Lebanon. I am deeply committed to Lebanon, and will argue in favor of their right to be-free of war and destruction!
    BTW-it was not only George Monbiot who recognized the pre-meditated nature of the assault on Lebanon-Seymour Hersh well documented this in his column “Watching Washington’s Interest in Lebanon”…Have you read this piece?

  37. Salah:
    I trust you are from Lebanon, yes? Did you see any press about Congressman Dennis Kucinich, who toured Lebanon extensively?
    JES:
    Because my work has involved the disappeared, and I know the agony of this, I have called publically for the ICRC to have access to the Israeli soldier kidnapped, as well as have stated that of course Ron Arad’s remains should be returned to his family.

  38. I trust you are from Lebanon,
    No kdj, I am from Iraq.
    But I watch closely Israel / Lebanon wars.

  39. kdj,
    The problem with Israeli Arab conflict is not a land argument for Israelis point view its to be or not to be, this the drama they living in, regrettably in addition most westerns have filled of the stories and climes that Israelis fed them for decades about their rights in Holy land which is not conflicted with Islamic religion or believe but they took more political issue than it is and unfortunately most of you have never see the real life of Jews in between us in Iraq and another countries yes there is some incident they suffer but in all its was much different what they faced in Europe,

  40. Two important pieces on the Israel/Palestine conflict:
    Why does The Times recognize Israel’s ‘right to exist’?
    The paper consistency adopts Israel’s language, giving credence to an inaccurate, simplistic and dangerous cliche.
    Saree Makdisi, L.A. Times, March 11, 2007
    http://www.latimes.com/news/printedition/opinion/la-op-makdisi11mar11,1,4318819.story
    A very crucial read: Palestinian youth: What hope?
    Years of Strife and Lost Hope Scar Young Palestinians
    http://www.nytimes.com/2007/03/12/world/middleeast/12intifada.html?_r=1&hp&oref=slogin
    March 12, 2007

  41. Israeli Foreign Minister Tzipi Livni urged Arab nations on Monday to normalize ties with Israel now, saying this could hasten the end of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.
    Here we go again putting conditions before they said they are accepting to negotiate a comprehensive Arab-Israeli peace deal, dubbed the Saudi initiative, which required setting with international community to resolve the problem.
    Precondition its means the rejection of the offer this not first time, not second time this on going saga between Arab with Israelis.
    “Do not wait for peace to come before you normalize relations with us. Normalize relations now and peace will come,” she said in a speech to the American Israel Public Affairs Committee, a powerful pro-Israel lobbying group.
    Why not do the deal and normalize relations will come after you summit your commitment to Arab-Israeli peace deal, why on earth you need first “normalize relations”? Is it important to “accepting to negotiate a comprehensive Arab-Israeli peace deal, dubbed the Saudi initiative,” first and all the rest will come automatically after that.
    Livni said the initiative contained “two additional clauses very problematic for Israel” concerning the right of return of Palestinian refugees.
    Although this case need some and more attention by Arab states who have Palestinian refuges for long time and it should be seriously taken in account the time they living in Arab state and the possibility of accommodating them with Arabs brothers and societies with a huge resource some courtiers they have instead of hosting US, UK military personals and Military Bases on their soil that money should be diverted to solve the Palestine’s refugees in first please batter than given to those foreigners.
    Put still there is question why Israeli keeping getting more settlers to live on the holly land from around the world but these poor Palestinians are not allowed to go back to their stolen land?
    http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3375591,00.html

  43. JES, before you hid with Silent Mode read this:
    “JERUSALEM (Reuters) – A third of Israeli settlements in the occupied West Bank are built on private Palestinian land, an anti-settlement group said in a report on Wednesday.
    The left-wing group Peace Now said 32.4 percent of the land held by Jewish settlements in the West Bank was privately owned by Palestinians.
    An earlier report by the same group estimated the figure at 40 percent.
    Peace Now said it based its new findings on the database of Israel’s military-run Civil Administration in the West Bank.”
    http://www.reuters.com/article/worldNews/idUSLAU42738120070314
    JES the defenders of Human Rights in Iran, Syria where the rights of those Palestine Humans inside the Only Democracy in ME where their rights come forward and speak with your mangling language JES.

  44. Salah,
    Just for your information, I have always opposed the building of settlements in both the West Bank and in Gaza.
    You have been kind enough to tell me what my “duty/responsibility” is to help bring about peace. Ever though about what your duties and responsibilities are?

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