In an interview broadcast by Germany’s N24 broadcast station today Israeli PM Olmert very clearly implied that Israel has nuclear weapons. I heard a re-broadcast of his words on a BBC news channel.
Ha’Aretz got the wording quite right in this account of his words:
- we have never threatened any nation with annihilation. Iran, openly, explicitly and publicly threatens to wipe Israel off the map. Can you say that this is the same level, when they are aspiring to have nuclear weapons, as America, France, Israel, Russia?
This caused a storm in Israel, which for 20-plus years has “had its cake and eaten it” regarding its possession of nuclear weapons. That is, while everyone recognizes that Israel has an advanced nuclear arsenal (and therefore, Israel enjoys all the “benefits” of nuclear deterrence– however chimerical they may in fact be), at the same time Israel’s leaders have never before openly admitted they have such an arsenal, and thus– with the continuing connivance of the entire US political establishment– they have been able to avoid attracting any of the opprobrium heaped on other nuclear “proliferators” like India and Pakistan.
Oh wait a moment. India just got rewarded by the US administration and congress for its act of proliferation. I guess the international calculus has changed?
Maybe the new calculus in a US-dominated world order is that it’s only Muslim nations getting bombs that is bad?
That HaAretz article linked to above notes that,
- Olmert’s spokesman, Miri Eisen, who accompanied the prime minister on a trip to Germany on Monday, said he did not mean to say that Israel possessed or aspired to acquire nuclear weapons.
“No he wasn’t saying anything like that,” she said.
Israeli Foreign Ministry spokesman Mark Regev said Olmert had meant to categorize the four nations as democracies to set them apart from Iran, and was not referring to their potential nuclear capabilities or aspirations.
Olmert’s comments come a week after the incoming U.S. secretary of defense, Robert Gates, shocked observers when he said that Israel possessed nuclear arms, before a Congressional confirmation panel…
Actually, maybe that open admission from Gates should be seen as equally important as Olmert’s (intentional or unintentional) “slip of the tongue.”
Back in the late 1980s I studied the Israeli nuclear program quite a bit and published a couple of articles about it. Maybe it’s time to dig them out and put them up on the site here. In one of them I argued that one of the main benefits Israel gained from its possession of nukes was to be able to blackmail the US government into increasing its despatch (at US taxpayers’ expense) of very lethal “conventional” weapons to Israel on the basis that, “If we can’t get the conventional weapons we need then we may just need to pull the you-know-whats out from under their wraps…”
Time for worldwide deactivation of all nuclear arsenals, I think.
I heard from somewhere that Israel dropped quasi-nuclear bombs on hillsides in southern Lebanon over the summer, from frustration in not finding Hezbollah bunkers. Did I mishear?
Dave of Maryland,
No, you heard Robert Fisk lying loud and clear. Fisk was the inventor or the nonexistant “vacuum implosion” bomb in 1982, and now he has invented the “quasi-nuclear” bomb (whatever that is). The Independent published his libel and had to retract (or at least qualify that there was absolutely no evidence of any such weapon having been used). I suggest that you refrain from repeating such ugly, unsubstantiated rumors without evidence.
And as a side note, this is yet another instance of a hawk getting mileage out of the mistranslation of Ahmadinejad’s statement, since he did not in fact say that Israel should be “wiped off the map.”
Redshift,
Why don’t you take a look at all the news footage that’s coming directly from Teheran instead of repeating what Western Ahmedinejad apologists are saying. At the “scientific” Holocaust conference being held there this week, there are scores of official signs and placards held by Iranians that clearly say “Israel Must be Wiped Off the Map” in English, Hebrew and Farsi.
Of course, perhaps we should wipe the Islamic Republic of Iran off the map and hold a conference on the “Post-Colonial Myth of Western Imperialist Atrocities”.
Thanks for the link, Redshift. It seems that new Hitlers must be created continually if right-wing Israelis are ever to achieve the dream of Eretz Israel.
Helena, that was an interesting idea you had back in the 1980’s on the true function of the Israeli nuclear arsenal. I could never figure out why Israel would want to have the bomb since it would never be able to be used. It would poison the entire region. But blackmail makes sense, and is also standard procedure in AIPAC’s relationship with US Gov’t officials.
Why, JES, I didn’t know you read Farsi!
Moving along from the rather irrelevant subject of what Olmert or Ahmedinejad really meant, I think that the sentiment expressed that it might be “[t]ime for worldwide deactivation of all nuclear arsenals” is a laudable one. I just think it makes quite a bit of sense to begin by preventing new arsenals from being built – particularly by the likes of Ahmedinejad and Khamanei.
I believe it was Vadim who explained quite well a while back the difference between Israel’s “proliferation” and that of Iran. It’s been more like 40 years – not 20-plus – since Israel’s acquisition of nuclear technology. That puts it prior to the submission of the NPT for ratification by member states.
Another important point is that it was, I believe, Pakistan that first referred to its weapon proudly as the “Islamic Bomb”, not the US or the West. I think it’s more a matter of today’s Muslim nations being more prone to openly threaten (and, in the case of Pakistan, to actually “proliferate” the technology), rather than some arbitrary Western classification by religion that makes the idea of states like Iran having the bomb “bad”.
But, by all means, let’s work for total, worldwide deactivation of all nuclear arsenals – starting with those countries who openly threaten other states. And then let’s all sing “Last Night I had the Strangest Dream” followed by a rousing chorus of “Kumbaya”.
And Shirin, honey, I didn’t know ya’all read Hebrew!
You see, JES, I made my comment to you because you appeared to know exactly what the Farsi signs said, therefore it seems you can read Farsi. Since I have never claimed to know what a Hebrew sign says, your little rejoinder makes no sense at all.
And more to the point, the fact that some people are carrying signs containing a particular statement is not even remotely evidence that this is what Ahmadinajad said. It happens that “wipe Israel off the map” is not an accurate or fair translation of his statement. It is, in fact, what is called a malicious translation. Hmmmm – no, it actually goes beyond malicious translation. Malicious translation is one in which the most negative possible, but not technically inaccurate, choice is made, and this one is just inaccurate (as well as malicious).
It happens that “wipe Israel off the map” is not an accurate or fair translation of his statement.
How on earth would you know? As you’ve attested here, you don’t know more than a few words of Farsi. And it happens that many native Farsi speakers (including Nazila Fathi of the NYT) disagree with Cole’s interpretation, or have deemed it quibbling. “erased from the pages of time” sounds even worse. And since we all speak English:
http://www.spiegel.de/img/0,1020,535438,00.jpg
I don’t see the point of keeping the nukes secret. Israel should make a full disclosure of their nuclear weapons program and allow inspectors to report on their nukes. That way the Israelis can make their ability to deter clear to everyone. Negotiations for disarmament should then begin. Israel can get commitments for its security, then it has no need for its nukes and can dismantle them. Perhaps Israel can get Iran and Syria to pledge to not build nuclear weapons in return for disarming their own.
Perhaps Israel can get Iran and Syria to pledge to not build nuclear weapons in return for disarming their own.
They’ve already pledged not to build nuclear weapons by signing the NPT! What on earth does Israel stand to gain with another pledge?
If Ahmadnijehad does not wish to be “mistranslated” by those dastardly Zionists, he does not need Juan Cole to explain the nuances of Farsi translation or to act as a political apologist.
The government of Iran has to be aware that their President’s quote has been circulated as “wipe off the map.” So why doesn’t the government or the president say? “Let me explain myself, I DON’T want Israel ‘wiped off the map.’ Iran is fully prepared to recognize Israel as a neighbor and a member of the community of nations. Any disagreements that we have with it vis a vis Palestine will be resolved in a civilized, diplomatic manner. In the meantimes, we are prepared to send an ambassador to Israel and normalize relations between the states.”
Instead, you have Iran funding Hezbollah and Hamas and sponsoring a Holocaust denial conference. So if Iran thinks it’s being “misunderstood” it’s doing a pretty lousy job of clarifying such misunderstanding.
Since “holocaust denial” is the ultimate sin of all time, let us remember Angela Merkel’s visit to Israel this spring, which visit was fully reported by Ha’aretz. The high point of that visit was Angela’s delivery of several volumes that conained the names of all the jews holocausted in Germany. According to the Ha’aretz article, there were 650 000 jews living in Germany before the war. Angela’s volumes contained the names of 150 000 individuals.
1. Haven’t we all been conditioned to believe that Germany managed to eliminate almost all of their jewish community?
2. As the Ha’aretz article stated, 500 000 of Germany’s jews did survive the war.
3. Starting with the 150 000 number in Germany, adding on Poland and thé Ukraine and etc., it’s still a stretch to reach the much-ballyhooed total of six million.
This thread appears to be digressing, but to clear up the “wipe off the map” mistranslation issue, here is a very good examination of the subject: http://commentisfree.guardian.co.uk/jonathan_steele/2006/06/post_155.html
I hope that clarifies things. Informed conversation is always better than name calling.
It would be an AWFUL thing if campaigning for fairness in Israeli policies and justice for Palestinians meant we have to embrace Holocaust revisionism in the process…… B-(
( How did a thread about Israel’s responsibility to be honest about its nukes fly off on so many tangents? )
“How did a thread about Israel’s responsibility to be honest about its nukes fly off on so many tangents?”
Inkan, it is the essential purpose of Vadim, Joshua et al. to divert, distract and diffuse any discussion critical of Israeli policy or American support for same. It’s what they do.
OK, back to nukes. Israel and nukes are a non-starter. Everyone knows they’re there, or what have they been doing at Dimona for lo these many years, making marmalade? And then there’s Vanunu. Why was he on ice for 20 years?
Shirin,
I do read both English and Hebrew, and I did see the signs carried and posted at a conference sponsored and hosted by the Iranian government Tehran. At any rate, your arguments about translations, transliterations, and the pronunciation of gutterals by Westerners is childish, at best.
Kassandra,
I suggest you study up a bit on the history. Before Germany began murdering its resident 150,000 Jews, it deported those – most to ghettos in Poland – who were not fully domiciled Germans before all Jews had their citizenship removed.
John C,
I suggest that you take a look at the first and third posts on this thread in response to the original post by Helena and then think again about who might be trying to “distract and diffuse”.
And by the way, has anyone else noticed the deafening silence here? Three innocent children were brutally, and apparently intentionally, gunned down in Gaza the other day. This is in addition to the more that 200 Palestinians – mostly Fatah supporters – killed since Hamas assumed the reins of government. Not a peep here. Not a tear. No cries for brutality or demands for an investigation.
And here’s another little statistic that I find interesting. Amidst the cries of starvation in Gaza, the Hamas lead government has received some $553 million in aid from the Muslim world since taking office. That’s an increase of 25% over the total aid received by the Fatah led government during the previous year. What do you think they’re spending this money on if they’re not paying the salaries of most government employees?
OK JES, let’s do numbers. Let’s say the 500 000 that lived in Germany before the war were all deported to Poland, where let’s say all were holocausted. Add 150 000 from Germany. Now, that leaves the rest of Europe. Were there
5 350 000 jews in the rest of Europe that were available for holocausting???
any discussion critical of Israeli policy
Wishing Israel would “disappear from the pages of time” isn’t criticizing any of its policies. Coming from a soon-to-be-nuclear armed nation, its called an “existential threat.” Neither is holocaust denial (a new low for JWN) “criticism of policy.”
Nice company you keep here, by the way — I note you have nothing to say about kassandra’s sickening remark. Maybe you secretly agree with me that holocaust denial and nation-eradication is germane to Israel’s nuclear policy. You sneaky devil, allowing her to prove our point for us. The Zionist Elders will be pleased.
Kassandra,
Why don’t you try doing a bit of basic researching on the topic before shooting from the hip.
There were roughly 9.5 million Jews in Europe prior to World War II, with the largest populations in Poland and the Western Soviet Union (Ukraine, Byelorus) totalling roughly 5.5 million. (You can add to that the half a million or so Ostjuden who were expelled by the Nazis from Germany to the ghettos and then the camps.) These populations were mostly wiped out by the Nazis (or “holocausted” as you crudely put it).
Most of the quarter of a million Jews in the Baltic states were liquidated at the very beginning of the war – the work of the infamous Einsazgruppen together with willing Lithuanian and Latvian volunteers.
Another half million Czech and Hungarian jews were killed in the camps – the Germans making a special effort to expedite the murder in the case of Hungary, when it came under Nazi control at the end of the war.
The Jewish communities in Greece were virtually wiped out – most at Mathausen. Even the North African Jewish communities were affected, with ghettos established in Libya and Tunisia and several hundred exterminated. These communities would have been totally liquidated had the Allies not begun their campaign there in 1942.
But, by all means, let’s “study” it, as Ahmedinejad suggests. Then let’s study the Post-Colonialist Myths of Impperialist Atrocities. And while were at it, maybe we should wipe the Islamic Republic of Iran off the map!
maybe we should wipe the Islamic Republic of Iran off the map!
Do it JES, but dot forgot they are the rescuers of Judah from the Babylonians, and Alistair will not forgive you if you do so.
Those Mullahs “they are hidden Zoroaster” your friends doesn’t tell me they are not…..
“With the rise of Cyrus, and the Persian conquest of Babylonia, an undreamt of opportunity was presented to the pious ‘elders’ of the Jews. Cyrus was a self-styled ‘Great King’, anxious to have all gods on his side for the conquest of empire. This included a Yahweh cult in the satrap of Judea. Accordingly, many of the Jews (mostly descendants of the original exiles) were returned to the old homeland. A figure of 42,360 ‘together with their servants and two hundred singers’ is quoted, several times the reported number taken into exile.”
The history replayed again now JES….
Ah, but Salah, you have to interpret my statement. What I meant was to wipe the authoritarian, racist Islamic regime off the map. See how it works?
To our friends here discussing and talking about Israelis Nuke arsenal and why they hold them?
The answer is simple and there is no need to search for clews and answers the simple answer, Israelis needs the fertilised land with it’s richness that’s why they never used the Nuke against their “enemies” in neighbouring states.
We discussed before the borders of State of Israeli, BTW it is a Borderless State
PM Olmert backs Tamir proposal to add Green Line to textbooks
Please read the talkback comments and see by yourself what the Israelis saying and their reactions, JES and Joshua, Vadim read the fanatics extremist Israelis what they saying bear in mind your post here about Arab/Muslims reactions and comment which you all the time accusing them of extremisms and fanaticisms compare them with your fanatics
To JES and others about Israelis nuke arsenal which relevant here with Omlert words, the point is Israelis used and using mass power in all their wares and the best example in recent 33 Days Lebanon war when Israeli used madly most advanced weaponry and bombes, in last 72 hours they thrown Million or 4Millions of cluster bombs if we convert it to Nuke Bombe how much will be?
To compare this amount of bombs I will use the US Strategic Bombing in1991 Iraq war when US thrown bombs and weaponry equal to 2o nuke bombs like Hiroshima one so the point is if they can make it by using another type of weapons why not, to defuse any international and public rejection and condemnations of using nuke weapons.
In 2003 Iraq invasion our familles told us, compare the war in 1991 it was nothing with the war in 2003 (still running till now) there is no reports and any official records telling how much Bombs, Rocket and explosives used in this war you need to imagine how many Hiroshima bombs thrown on Iraq in 2003?
What I meant was to wipe the authoritarian, racist Islamic regime off the map.
Yah, “you have to interpret Ahmadinajad statementthen”.!!! What “Ahmadinajad” meant was to wipe the authoritarian, racist Israeli war crminals off the map. See how it works?”
JES, read this from your local daily newspaper Haaretz, don’t forgot your Mossed running wiled in Iraq killing tens or hundreds of Iraqi JES…
The numbers don’t lie. They never do. In the past month, the number of Palestinians killed by Israeli forces was 45 times greater than the number of Israelis killed by Palestinians. The Palestinian dead included 13 minors. All in one deadly month. The last name on the list is Ayman Abu-Mahdi, a 10-year-old boy who had come home from school and gone out to get a little air with his siblings and friends. He was sitting on a bench in front of his house. The time: 15 hours before the cease-fire in Gaza.
The last casualty? Of course not. In the first week after the cease-fire, Israel had already killed five more in the West Bank. The last child to die? No again. This past Sunday, soldiers killed 15-year-old Mahmoud al-Jabji in the Askar refugee camp in Nablus. The last casualty in Gaza? That, too, is hard to believe. The last only until this cease-fire goes up in flames, like all its predecessors.
JES, can you let us the reference for your clam about 5ooMillions pay for Hamas?
You can check out the IMF report on the Palestinian Authority here:
http://www.imf.org/external/np/wbg/2006/eng/rr/pdf/fis_1006.pdf
You can also try and contact Zvi Yehezkeli of Israel’s Channel 10 news who reported these numbers the other day.
BTW, I don’t recall I, or any of the people you mentioned, either accusing all Arabs or Muslims of being extremists or denying that there are Israeli extremists.
“Inkan, it is the essential purpose of Vadim, Joshua et al. to divert, distract and diffuse any discussion critical of Israeli policy or American support for same. It’s what they do.”
Sorry John C., it was neither Vadim nor I who tried to whitewash the president of Iran’s explicitly stated eliminationist goals by quibbling over the nuances of Farsi. And it was neither Vadim nor I that decided to promote actual holocaust denial on this thread.
Whenever Helena mentions anything, anything, about Israel, or even about something else, you can be assured that certain participants will use the occasion to dig up any old link they can find to try and trash the country. So I would suggest pointing the finger of “diversion” at those people.
You’re probably getting the impression that we don’t care for or approve of Israel. You could be right. It’s human nature to root for the underdog and cheer when the bully takes a fall.
You have my deepest sympathy. It must be very tough to be in the position of having to defend the bully, and very wearing trying to make the bully appear to be the victim. Israel has the 4th ranked military power in the world, the 5th ranked nuclear arsenal (after Britain, go to CNN website), and is the regional military hegemon. It is ludicrous to be still trying to project the David & Goliath script.
“Maybe you secretly agree with me that holocaust denial and nation-eradication is germane to Israel’s nuclear policy.”
Vadim, no secret. I DO agree with you on that.
I’ll admit my earlier comment was unfair in the context of this particular thread. Points taken.