Buried at the bottom of this report in the Dec 12 WaPo is the dryly presented news that unidentified “authorities”, presumably American,
- have identified more than 1,000 detention centers across Iraq.
More than 1,000. That makes it at least 1,001, right?
That little piece of information was in a report on a raid by troops from one Iraqi government body on a detention center run by another Iraqi government body, in Baghdad last Thursday. The raiders discovered 625 prisoners in the detention center, some of whom had been very badly tortured. (Thirteen were taken directly to a hospital.)
And this is the “new Iraq” that the US has brought into the world???
Words fail me.
1,001 Detention Centers
Every little town has a jail. The US probably has hundreds of thousands of jails (also called Detention Centers). It doesn’t mean that there are 1,001 torture centers in Iraq.
It’s worth checking out. Some intrepid reporter should go out and visit a sampling of these places to see what’s what. But the implication that there are 1,001 torture centers in Iraq is simply unjustified.
The “Sunnis” say:
This indicates a problem that needs to be investigated right away. It does not permit the inference that there are 1,001 torture centers.
And Helena manages to avoid mentioning that it was US forces that opened up and stopped the crimes at the two places thus far.
This is the “New Iraq” the US has brought about: torture is being stopped where it is found and the nature of Iraqi governance is improving. The original decision to disband the existing Baath government now looks to be very wise. Is that why words fail you?
The greatest accomplishment is that Sunni political leaders are making an issue out of it and encouraging large voter turnouts. Democracy is growing in Iraq and the insurgency is losing adherents.
The phrase “detention center” indicates that these are not conventional jails where inmates receive due process and a fair trial.
Many officials in the Bush administration were involved in atrocities in South America so these centers don’t surprise me.
Sorry edq, Warren is right. That’s exactly what the phrase “detention center” means, and the article doesn’t even imply that these more “than 1,000 detention centers” are scenes of torture.
Oh yes, Warren, you are so right! How can we possibly draw any conclusions from the discovery so far severe abuse/horrible conditions/torture/killing, etc. in virtually everyone of the American and “Iraqi”-run prisons and detention centers. It is, after all, entirely possible that one day someone might discover a prison or detention center in which conditions are good, prisoners/destainees are treated according to humanitarian standards, and no abuse or torture takes place. That would, of course, be proof positive that all the other cases were anomalous.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/shared/bsp/hi/pdfs/12_12_05_iraq_data.pdf
interesting new poll.
Warren, be lenient towards the journalists, even the intrepid ones. It’s just plain not safe to roam Iraq’s streets, much less ask to see a “detention center” or interview its inmates. Might as well prepare to become an inmate or meet one’s Maker.
A “detention center” actually sounds more hospitable than “jail,” but I don’t imagine either is exactly a spa. Even bona fide jails are probably over-crowded, fithly (unfit for vermin), sadistic, and filled disproportionately with whoever constitutes the local minority.
Truth be known, this ugly phenomenon will persist after US troops leave, especially if the feuding groups continue to feud. Idigenous authorities may even institute stoning of adultresses, blasphemers, apostates, gays, or liquor sellers. Cleric judges will probably not prosecute spouse beatings or homicidal “acts of family honor.” Some of these practices may match the agenda of some US religious conservatives, but are not a US export to Iraq.
To be fair to the Iraqis, no society faced with so much disorder is likely to be a model of habeas corpus.
The US, with its high rates of incarceration, recidivism, and homicide, has little to teach a place like Iraq. Neither is it likely that Iraqis would seek or follow any US advice on whom to arrest, lock up, flog, mutiliate, or execute.
Is it true or false that corrections officers represent one of the largest public employees groups in some US states? Wonder if the Society of Friends has a chapter that works in that sector. Of if there is a Samoan ice hockey league.
I doubt there is any objective world comparison of jail conditions, but I’d vaguely suspect that the places with the lowest incarcertations and the cleanest cells are either very homogeneous (Finland) or very disciplined (Singapore).
Land of 1,001 detention centers
Helena, I felt sad and Disgraceful from you by using this title to describe the savage behaviours that mankind did for their kind.
By using 1001 you really undermined and humiliated the history of Islam/Iraq and every Iraqi what 1001 was represented the top of the human achievements when Haroon AL-Rashied achieved what we can call the ultimate human respect and dignity with loving of sciences and peace.
By link this savage acts by criminals that a shame Helena, those criminals they also destroyed the Statue of the builder of Baghdad and the icon of Baghdad Abu Jaffer Al-Mansoore on the day of the Baghdad was built just because they hate us they hate the Iraqis the hate the Muslims that’s all I can say.
Hopefully peoples be more careful we they using words and historical event to link it to our unpeacfull life now.
“To be fair to the Iraqis, no society faced with so much disorder is likely to be a model of habeas corpus.”
To be fair to the Iraqis, the American occupiers have from day one provided Iraqis with the model for how to run detention centers. They have also recruited the personnel, and provided the Iraqis with training and American supervisors – oh, excuse me, “advisors” for the running of these detention centers and prisoners, and for the techniques for dealing with detainees, including “interrogation” techniques.
Shirin:
I didn’t say it proved anything, but that it needed to be checked out. Stop stretching the truth and start sticking to the plain truth.
For some reason it would cause you grievous pain to admit that torture and murder were much more prevalent under Saddam Hussein than currently. Why? Under Saddam and his sons the atrocities would never have ended.
A freer press, like Iraq has now, is a much bettor guarantor of prisoners rights than anything else.
jkoch:
There are a very large number of prisons and literally millions of prisoners in the US. Drugs are involved in the vast majority of crimes either directly as the crime or as a result of intoxication. Some blame the drugs, some blame the drug users, others blame the drug laws. I blame all of those and the open borders. Prisons in the US are famous for being a hotbed of prisoner-racism and prisoner-violence. And the corrections officers aren’t saints either.
Large sections of Iraq are quite peaceful. Especially the Kurd areas. This doesn’t mean the local prison will let the wandering journalist in for a visit, though. Good point.
A freer press, like Iraq has now, is a much bettor guarantor of prisoners rights than anything else.
This will be achieved if the criminals brought to justice starting from the top the Interior minister Jabor Sulag and the rest of Iranians he hired them as per new reviled information in Amman yesterday by Al Samurai he had photos for the tortured Iraqi also he did mentioned in press conference there are many killed during the torture and all of them are youth.
What if Iraq has free press serving these criminals do you think this all about Iraq just in the first step for long road you can not count on it right now.
We saw the prisoner rights how dealt with by Americans which they had better justice system when they made a deals with the criminals to admitting their acts to protect the High Rank Officers to be questioned so that they got lite sentences.
For an excellent philosophical analysis of the fallacy contained in the pro-torture arguments, see Majikthese’s recent posting, Ticking Bombs.
I tend to agree with edq about the phrasing suggesting that these are not ordinary jails, for which, presumably, the “authorities” would already have had a census. Also, earlier in the article Ms. Knickmeyer refers to detention centers run by the Interior Ministry , indicating another difference with jails, which would be run by other groups.
However, it’s also true that the article was not entirely clear, and more information is required.
Having said that, it sounds like some are hoping to reserve judgment to preserve whatever notions they might have that Iraq is better off now than it was before; while others are assuming judgment based on notions that Iraq is not. Or at least, not very much better. I don’t think, however, that anyone is arguing that it was paradise under Saddam.
The fact that Iraq’s relative state (better or worse) is debatable, however, is a pretty grim sign.
Vivion,
It seems to me that you make a lot of unfounded assumptions here. A “detention center” is a “lock-up” or a “prison”, is a “jail”.
According to the article “A government spokesman, Laith Kubba [Bamya?], said Sunday night that any findings at the prison would be ‘subject to an investigation,’ but he declined to comment on the allegations.” Ms. Knickmeyer goes on to say that “The abuse alleged at the prison found this week appeared to have been more severe. Asked specifically what types of torture were found in the commandos’ prison, the official cited breaking of bones, torture with electric shock, extraction of fingernails and cigarette burns to the neck and back.”
She goes on to report that “Prime Minister Ibrahim Jafari, under heavy pressure from Khalilzad and Army Gen. George W. Casey Jr., the top U.S. commander in Iraq, ordered a nationwide investigation of detention centers after that discovery. The prison investigated Thursday was the first center examined as part of the government-ordered inquiry.”
The article goes on using the words “prisons”, “facilities” and “dentention centers” interchangeably. It sums up with the two sentences that spurred Helena’s original post, and this whole thread: “U.S. officials have said the FBI and the U.S. military are aiding the prison investigation. Authorities have identified more than 1,000 detention centers across Iraq.”
What we have, then, is a pretty straight-forward report about cases of abuse and torture uncovered by an Iraqi Interior Ministry investigation of prisons, brought on by the discovery and exposure by US troops of abuse and torture at one such “detention center”, “prison”, “lock-up”, “jail”, or what have you. (In my opinion, the use of different terms is simply a matter of Ms. Nickmeyer trying to avoid using the same term over and over again.)
Further, your concern about “detention centers run by the Interior Ministry , indicating another difference with jails, which would be run by other groups”, is also, I believe, simply unfounded and based on assumptions that are equally unfounded. In many countries all prisons, jails, detention centers and like facilities happen to be under the auspices of the Interior Ministry. In the Soviet Union, for example, the jails, criminal prisons and gulags, were all run under the auspices of the Interior Ministry (MVD), as were both the militia (police) and the KGB. The latter, I am certain maintained a lot of influence and provided a lot of, what Shirin calls “advisors”, to the Ba’ath regime.
I don’t think that those of us who question the assertion made in Helena’s post are “hoping to reserve judgment to preserve whatever notions they might have that Iraq is better off now than it was before”. I simply think that it is grossly irresponsible to make a generalized conclusion based on a questionable analysis of two sentences in one article in the Washington Post. (And I might add that anyone who does so should perhaps think twice before criticizing the Administrations handling of intelligence gathering and analysis!)
Salah, I feel very bad if you felt my reference to “1,001” was an anti-Iraqi or anti-Muslim insult. I meant it to be exactly the opposite: a sort of reference point back to a much better age of Iraqi history that would provide a contrast to the situation today.
I agree with those who note that there is much that is unknown about the exact status of the “more than 1,000” places of detention referenced in Knickmeyer’s report. And, I would add, not just unknown but also in the present circumstances literally unknowable given (1) the difficulties researchers, regulators, or other invetsigators would have traveling around the country to inspect all these detention centers and (2) the breakdown, indeed, of any central government machinery capable of undertaking such a task– along with the rest of the kind of government machinery that is always necessary to assure that people’s rights are being respected at all levels.
This unknowability is itself a cause for strong concern, especially in light of the the information that HAS emerged about serious abuse and torture at several places of detention.
Indeed, have we ever seen any pieces of reporting about well-run places of detention in Iraq? If such places existed, I feel quite confident that the US military’s powerful public-affairs apparatus would have made sure that such stories were widely publicized.
If any readers can provide information about or links to such stories I would truly love to read them and have some of my worst fears somewhat assuaged.
Vivion,
Iraq’s relative state is definitely NOT debatable, believe me.
JES,
Laith Kubba [Bamya?],
When you Making Fun of People names I think this out of the Rules of this site, Helena may not notice it. But its irresponsible way that you make laugh of people names JES….
“the breakdown, indeed, of any central government machinery capable of undertaking such a task– along with the rest of the kind of government machinery that is always necessary to assure that people’s rights are being respected at all levels.”
Excuse me Helena, but what “central government machinery” tasked with such responsibilities existed under Saddam’s regime? What machinery of human rights-monitoring-capability has the coalition broken?
Sorry Salah, but whenever I see the word kubbah, I always think of kubbah bamya, and it’s getting to be dinner time!
Some of commentators trying to highlight this case and put it in away the torturing process am imaginable.
I would say here I can not believe for one second that US officials in Iraq or US Military and very important 100 Personal that left behind Sheikh Bremer in each Iraqi Ministry with power more than the ministers did not have any knowledge about what’s going on.
Also the torturing done by US in Abu Graib and other secrets centres under US control was severe torturing to Iraqi but the filtering of information flow and the pressure puts on the media stop we know exactly what’s done inside those centres run by US/Israelis contractors, now the Iranian doing same .
Death Mask: The Deliberate Disintegration of Iraq
By Chris Floyd
Iraq’s relative state is definitely NOT debatable, believe me.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/shared/bsp/hi/pdfs/12_12_05_iraq_data.pdf
Shirin, this is a poll conducted recently by Oxford Research International, a non-partisan research group based in the UK. It represents a poll of nearly 2000 Iraqis. Among its findings:
a significant majority of Iraqis (>70%) rate their current lives as “very good” or “quite good.” A slight majority (51.5%) rate their lives as “Much better” or “somewhat better” than before the invasion (versus 29.3% claiming “worse”) “Things in Iraq overall” are better according to 46 percent of respondents, versus 39 percent describing them as worse.
I should note that in other respects the poll is critical of the coalition and the invasion, showing just over half disapprove of the invasion itself, all factors considered, and that very few Iraqis trust the coalition’s ability to govern Iraq. But “relative state”, in the view of a significant number of Iraqis, is seen as better (both for individuals and Iraq as a whole) by a majority.
Many similar polls exist (a comprehensive list is here: http://www.iraqanalysis.org/info/55) I’m not claiming that results like this are conclusive, but are they unworthy even of debate?
Surely you have some quantifiable measures in mind addressing “relative state” that conclusively rebut these imperfect measures. Please help me understand what they are.
Mr. Garlasco’s biography reads:
”Before coming to HRW, Marc spent seven years in the Pentagon as a senior intelligence analyst covering Iraq. His last position there was chief of high-value targeting during the Iraq War in 2003. Marc was on the Operation Desert Fox (Iraq) Battle Damage Assessment team in 1998, led a Pentagon Battle Damage Assessment team to Kosovo in 1999, and recommended thousands of aimpoints on hundreds of targets during operations in Iraq and Serbia. He also participated in over 50 interrogations as a subject matter expert.”
Indeed he fit Human Rights Watch to do excellent Job a Round The world!!
Vadim, Wrote
”their current lives as “very good” or “quite good.”
Vadim Thanks for this survey, if what this survey showing its right I advice you to give a visit to Baghdad and tell us when you come back your finding……if we get you back…
if what this survey showing its right I advice you to give a visit to Baghdad
Neither of us is in Baghdad, Salah, and of course the survey covered all of Iraq including areas safe and dangerous for westerners. I’m sure you (like Shirin) can point me to poll results conducted by Iraqis in Baghdad that contradict these results, and that’s why you feel comfortable issuing sweeping generalisations about nationwide Iraqi opinion. I look forward to being convinced.
Salah and others, I wrote about these death squads at my blog. While writing the article I realized one thing: what is at stake here is the idea that there’s something called basic American decency that’s been corrupted by this war.
That is, I still find it hard to think that US troops could support and instigate anything like death squads. There’s the feeling that as bad as Americans act sometimes, they still have a basic sense of decency about how far is too far.
Sure, there are exceptions like My Lai and individual cases, but that’s just it: they’re the exception, not the rule. Now I think that I am facing the idea, with this war and the revelations of torture camps etc., that this basic decency is gone, and a deadly rot of corrupt ethics is the norm.
Call me naive, I know. Graham Greene painted this long ago. Yet, Greene depicted his American protagonist as someone who thought and believed in an innocent way, and through this innocence committed great evil. What’s happening today is that Greene’s American has lost that innocence and does evil knowingly and corruptly.
”Call me naive, I know. Graham Greene painted this long ago.”
I agree with you charles, I will not call you “naive” I understand from where you coming and I totally agree, I hope the good people from US who be on the ground with control there in Iraq will get sort it out all the problems.
Thanks
Vadim,
Firstly I sure I am out of Iraq now, but I got a big family their and friends moreover with many Iraqi friends here with me,
What’s my question are
What the survey means by “”very good” or “quite good.”
1- Is it the food?
2- Is it waiting for hours for petrol to fill your car?
3- Is it seeing every day the destroyed building and infrastructures all around Iraq?
4- Is it seeing the Highways destroyed by the war and you need to make your way around to reach your destinations?
5- Is it going each morning to your work and you without knowing that you may not come back to your family in the end of the day?
6-Is it the electricity breaks every two hours or you got it for three hour a day?
7- Is it no water in the pipes and you need to do your daily showers, cooking and washing?
8- Is it you lost your waiting to get help from the family or friends after you sold already every thing you had after 13 years of sanction?
9- Is it seeing daily US convoy and Hamves in the street between the residential areas with there faces shouting and swearing on you or with bad language for the Wemen just walking at a time on that street?
More and More, you need more give a visit please you find more….
Well, this is the way colonial wars are supposed to be fought, nothing particularly new 🙁
Salah I’m sure I’d be as popular in your Baghdad neighborhood as you’d be in as-Sulaymânîyah or Basra wearing a placard calling for the return of Saddam Hussein to power. This is my sole point of comparison — are you contending that life under Hussein was better for a majority of Iraqis and that it would be better for a majority of Iraqis to return him to power? If so why are you not campaigning in Iraq for his release and immediate return to authority? I’d have to imagine its more important to convince your fellow Iraqis of this fact than someone like myself.
Vadim,
For starters, I see you still have not learned the difference between the results of an opinion poll and actual, measurable conditions on the ground.
Talking of mideast polls… I posted results from a poll of Iraq and the mideast on Dec. 3, 2005. The results are similar to the ones reported by the recent ABC/NYTimes survey. But there’s some more detail and interesting questions in that poll that do not show up in this ABC/NYT poll. See my posting for links: Polls Find Suspicion of US in Iraq and Arab World. BTW I also sent this link to several liberal blogs and websites, but they did not deign to put it up either. Go figure…
But what gives with the 10-day time-lag? What, don’t US newspeople trust anyone except American polling agencies now, or what? The results were reported, BTW, by Reuters. Well, you have to admit, THAT is suspicious. I mean Reuters is French-owned (I believe), so that’s obviously suspect…
A propos my posting on American decency, I think this is explored by Spike Lee in his movie, Do the Right ThingDo the Right Thing
charles, the poll you cite doesn’t seem to be of Iraqis:
http://www.kuna.net.kw/home/story.aspx?Language=en&DSNO=793005
” Countries included in the poll, which was conducted in October, were Jordan, Lebanon, Morocco, Saudi Arabia, Egypt and the United Arab Emirates.”
Shirin, once again I’ve asked you to present your ‘measurable data’ and again you’ve declined my polite request with a shallow and supercilious remark.
Charles:
It was the Americans who raided the two prisons (or whatever) where the current Iraqi government was mistreating (or whatever) the Iraqis. There is still plenty of basic American decency. It needs to work hard, but it’s alive and kicking.
Consider this whole Iraq thing; If democracy takes hold in Iraq it can lead to genuine World Peace. And I am not making this up.
JES,
So sorry for being grossly irresponsible. Good heavens, I can’t think of what came over me. I probably was thinking too much of previous comments made by some of our regulars. My bad. I know my words here sway millions of innocent minds.
My main point, however, was that the very fact that there is such debate about whether Iraq is better off now or not is a very sad statement about the state of the country and the results of our “intervention.”
Adding to that, the fact that we are arguing on this blog about whether the Americans torture or not, and how much the new regime does or does not torture, or whether or not the Americans use chemical weapons, yadda yadda yadda — is an even sadder statement.
Not too terribly long ago, it was still possible to argue with somewhat of a straight face that the U.S. was a beacon of democracy and freedom. I mean, if you sort of ignored Latin and Central American history, and a handful of other international ventures. Ah, well.
Vadim,
I am completely dumfounded! Are you seriously claiming that you have not seen any of the hundreds of reports in the main stream media about the progressively worsening of just about every aspect of life for ordinary Iraqis? You have heard nothing about the severe deterioration of electrical services, water supplies and security? You have seen none of the reports about the the exponential rise in violent crime, particularly murder and kidnapping – an increase that continues today? Nothing about the crushing 40-70% (depending on whether you consult a pro-occupation or an anti-occupation source) rate of unemployment? Or the lack of availability of food combined with the inability to pay for it even if it were available? The hundreds of thousands of Iraqi families rendered indefinitely homeless as a result of U.S. attacks and massive destruction of homes and infrastructure? The rise in malnutrition rates? The deterioration of a health care system that no one though could deteriorate any further? The rise in infectious diseases? No? Well, maybe you DID see one of the several articles describing the loss of women’s rights and freedoms at the hands of the fundamentalists who are now in power, or the way thousands of young Iraqi women and girls are forced into the hands of prostitution rings in Iraq and abroad in order to survive. Or the terrible treatment of Christians by the Kurdish ruling parties in Kurdistan, and by the fundamentalists in Basra and elsewhere. Or the death threats – some of which have been carried out – against barbers who offer the “wrong” kinds of services. Did you miss the hundreds of reports regarding the lack of availability and the high price of gasoline? Cooking gas? Kerosene?
Where have you been, Vadim? I think even Fox News has reported at least some of these conditions, all of which are measurably worse than they were pre-“liberation”.
Shirin, I’ve read many horrible measured statistics regarding Iraq both before and after invasion. A few years back I read in the Guardian that half a million children had died from sanctions imposed by the UN (for which Hussein alone bears full legal responsibility). I’ve read of staggering unemployment and high infant mortality rates under Hussein’s administration. I’d be interested in seeing recent measurable data of this kind. I’m happy to share my ante bellum data. We can compare the two. But you seem not to have any on hand or it would have appeared by now.
So instead all you have are asinine remarks about Fox news, one-sentence peremptory assertions and denials, and glib reminders that you’re an Iraqi (living in the USA I’d add) so that’s that. By that ridiculous standard we should all believe every word spoken by Ahmed Chalabi, since he’s certainly an Iraqi. We might believe him more, since he lives in Iraq NOW unlike Salah and yourself.
I’ve given you a poll– several polls, in fact. “Not good enough!” you say – fine. Let’s see something else, something measurable. Pretend — try to pretend — that you care about convincing us of your position with facts and figures instead of merely whacking us over the head with your passport.
Vadim, True. I conflated the two polls.
The news is worse than we had known. According to the NYT the US Ambassador said that “over 100” Iraqis were abused. The article said “The exact nature of the maltreatment of the hospitalized prisoners remained unclear.” The Iraqi officials in charge of the prison dismissed the accusation saying the men had “headaches”.
Perhaps now it will stop. I hope so. I hope the Ambassador is wrong.
As I read the article I realized there might be an electoral angle I’m simply not getting. Is there some reason that the US Ambassador would make such a big stink right before an Iraqi election? He could have kept it hushed up until after the election but chose not to. I admit I don’t understand the machinations going on here.
I think we need to know what the Iraqis thought they were doing when they were hurting those people. Getting information, revenge? Just being crazy?
If this happened under Saddam we would never have heard about it until the victims were dead, if then.
PS Vadim, I corrected the posting. Thanks for the heads up. I still think the gist of my posting about the story hold, however: That is, that the US press missed an opportunity for conveying to the US public what image the US is garnering in the Mideast by its actions. Why they missed the story or did not report it if they did know about it is of course a bone to chew on for a bit… no?
“If democracy takes hold in Iraq it can lead to genuine World Peace.”
what I want to know is: how long do we have to have democracy here in the USA before we have peace? We seemed to be bombing or fighting someone nearly all the time: including countries, like Iraq, which have not threatened or attacked us.
As far as I can tell, the poll results seem to reflect growing confidence among inhabitants of the predominantly Shiite and Kurdish regions that they are going to come out on top, and corresponding pessimism in the predominantly Sunni regions. This would appear consistent with most of the recent reporting from Iraq.
Vadim, you never really said what conclusions, if any, you draw from the poll results.
calling for the return of Saddam Hussein to power.
Fist don’t say that next time I am not the one as you try to put the words in my mouth, I am Iraq loving person its my home country not like you.
I defend my country or my people this the matter we are talking about in real and truthful discussion and I listen to all the views with respect.
By doing drift my position as you like this distressful and bad thing to do be honest and truthful to this bog don’t spreads your thinking to withdraw the attentions from the main subject.
The points I mentioned before this is the real life if any one can prove me wrong please do so AND LET US SEE THE REAL LIFE THIER.
Lastly I never been Saddam supporter, I think you made a mistake by your clams and you should apologies for that.
O.K.– the article needs to explain what is meant by the term “detention center”. At the same time disturbing reports about abuses from other articles suggest a dark interpretation. There have been reports that both the Iraqi government and the Kurdish groups have been arresting and torturing people en mass. Other reports state that the U.S. has also detained (kidnapped?) people without any evidence or due process. I suppose the real question is how extensive and widespread this kidnapping and torture is; it doesn’t really matter whether these “detainees” are held in these facilities or or some other “centers”.
The use of the phrase “detention center” also seems to me like an admission of guilt. The Bush administration has introduced a lot of Orwellian terminology (“enemy combatant” ect.) to avoid the law. Incidently, another country that has “detention centers” and “detainees” is Israel.
Still the article needs to explain what is meant by the term.
John C.
predominantly Shiite and Kurdish regions
I got a friend he is Kurdish, he went to Iraq after one year of invasion this friend he is pro Americans, when he came back he visited only north Iraq region “Kurdistan” when we asked him what he saw, he said 80% of the Kurds against American he said also he add he don’t know why!!!.
So the opposition to US invasion not necessarily just those as the media call them insurgences but the majority of Iraqis in their hearts they can not love see their country under US invasion.
Here is an absolutely *must read* article by Tom Lasseter of Knight Ridder, who is far and away the best war reporter working in Iraq.
http://www.realcities.com/mld/krwashington/13391616.htm
There is so much to absorb here, I can’t even begin to comment on it right now. Read it for yourselves.
Lasseter clearly deserves a Pulitzer for his work in Iraq, all of which has been first rate. I don’t know how he stays alive.
Salah – I have no doubt you are right. I think the poll results show strong and widespread opposition to any long-term US presence in Iraq. Really, the way I read it, the Iraqi people have started thinking *beyond* the US occupation to a future in which there will be winners and losers among them. Do you disagree?
John C.
the Iraqi people have started thinking *beyond* the US occupation to a future in which there will be winners and losers among them. Do you disagree?
I am with you John, but the problem now is the ball in US field, US not welling to be the loser in this scenario keep in mind the US allies in the region also there is account for them here, so there are many things to come to see who is the real loser in the end is.
John– thanks for that great link. The newest thing I found in there is 2/3 way down…
A document obtained by Knight Ridder appears to reveal the existence of an Interior Ministry death squad./ A memo written by an Iraqi general in the ministry operations room and addressed to the minister’s office says on its subject line: “Names of detainees.” It lists 14 men who were taken from Iskan, a Sunni neighborhood in western Baghdad, during the early morning hours of Aug. 18. It also marks the time of their detention: 5:15 a.m./ The bodies of the same 14 men were found in the town of Badrah near the Iranian border in early October. Hussein Sayhoud, a doctor at Baghdad’s main morgue who examined the bodies and signed one of the death certificates, said that most of the men had been killed by single gunshots to their heads./”I remember when they brought in the whole group,” Sayhoud said. “They were so badly decomposed we couldn’t identify any marks of torture.” …
The report also gives credit to KR’s Leila Fadel and unnamed (local) special correspondents. KR has in general been streets ahead of all other print media, with AP running second…
“So instead all you have are asinine remarks about Fox news, one-sentence peremptory assertions and denials, and glib reminders that you’re an Iraqi (living in the USA I’d add) so that’s that. By that ridiculous standard we should all believe every word spoken by Ahmed Chalabi, since he’s certainly an Iraqi. We might believe him more, since he lives in Iraq NOW unlike Salah and yourself.”
Chalabi is a proven liar, Shirin and Salah are not.
I fail to see how any comment on Fox news could be anything but asinine, since that is primarily what they are. Well, maybe USELESS would be a better word for Fox News.
“An Iraqi general formerly in charge of special forces said on Sunday he witnessed horrific scenes of torture in Iraqi prisons and accused a Shiite militia of being responsible.”
http://www.turkishpress.com/news.asp?id=88102
Ex-general says Iranian led torture of detainees
http://www.washtimes.com/world/20051213-120437-7849r.htm
“Had Rumsfeld been Secretary of War in 1945 he would no doubt have argued that the soldiers who discovered the concentration camps only had a responsbilility to report them and not to do anything else to stop what was going on.”
By the way, there is an article on the “dentention centers” in today’s Times that makes it clear the ones being investigated are run specifically by the Interior Ministry. Given what we’ve been hearing about the Interior Ministry, I think we have an emerging pattern.
“There have been reports that both the Iraqi government and the Kurdish groups have been arresting and torturing people en mass.”
The Kurdish mafiocracies have been arresting and torturing people individually and en masse for decades. They have also been murdering, disappearing and otherwise violating the human rights of people for decades.
For those who want to stay on top of how our defense industry is planning to spend our money and protect us, you might want to tune in to http://defense.iwpnewsstand.com/budgetblog/
I know human rights violations in Iraqi Kurdistan were ignored by the U.S. during the 1990’s. The U.S. will complain about this when they decide to seize the oil in Kurdistan or when the Kurdish groups become anti-Israeli.
It’s really something to watch the wise guys in Cheney’s and Rumsfeld’s offices try to outmaneuver John McCain on the anti-torture bill. These guys thought it would be real clever to quietly change the Army’s field manual sections on interrogation, by adding a secret, *classified* set of permitted torture techniques, while negotiating an agreement with McCain that all interrogations would comply with the field manual he thinks is still in effect. Pretty good joke, huh? That Stephen Cambone is a real low-life thug. I would love to see him behind bars.
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/12/14/politics/14detain.html?emc=eta1
vadim
“This is my sole point of comparison — are you contending that life under Hussein was better for a majority of Iraqis and that it would be better for a majority of Iraqis to return him to power?”
Iraq Health and Infrastructure Digest #13
http://vitw.org/archives/981#more-981
These are the guys they had teams on the ground in Iraq if you still not believe me take a read and convinced yourself what the real live and next time don’t say what you said I still look forward for your apology…
“are you contending that life under Hussein was better for a majority of Iraqis”
That is demonstrably the case. It is also apparently the opinion of most Iraqis, according to recent polls.
“and that it would be better for a majority of Iraqis to return him to power?”
No one is talking about returning Saddam to power.
That is demonstrably the case. It is also apparently the opinion of most Iraqis, according to recent polls.
so cite one!. I’ve given you at least three that say the exact opposite.
No one is talking about returning Saddam to power.
Why not? If things were better you should be talking about it, especially if you consider his government the legitimate sovereign authority in Iraq.
“I’ve given you at least three that say the exact opposite.”
No you haven’t. The polls you cited do not say the exact opposite at all. In fact, the poll you cited twice on this page shows that the majority of Iraqis consider that overall things are worse now than before.
“If things were better you should be talking about it…wa fulan wa fulan wa fulan…”
Grow up, Vadim.
“In fact, the poll you cited twice on this page shows that the majority of Iraqis consider that overall things are worse now than before.”
What a very odd remark! Shirin, I realise that English may not be your first language, and that you may have a hard time understanding straightforward declarative sentences. So I’m going to help you out with the tricky language and arcane statistical terminology involved here.
Q2 – Compared to the time before the war in Spring 2003, are things overall in your
life much better now, somewhat better, about the same, somewhat worse or much
worse?
51.5% of the respondents answered “Better” or “much better.”. In mathematical terminology, a number above 50% represents what’s called a ‘majority.’ This suggests that “a majority” think that “things overall in [their lives]” are ‘better’- not ‘the same’ or worse, but better than “before the invasion.” “Better” is the opposite of “worse.” They aren’t synonyms.
Q5 – Compared to our country as it was before the war in spring 2003, are things in
Iraq overall much better now, somewhat better, about the same, somewhat worse or
much worse?
Here 45.9% of respondents answered ‘better’ or ‘much better.’ 38.7% answered ‘worse’ or ‘much worse’ Among those who expressed any preference, ‘better’ claimed 54.25% of the total (45.9% + 38.7%), ie another majority. Accounting for undecideds, “better” still represents a “plurality”- not a ‘majority’ but still the greatest share. No sane person in command of her faculties could interpret this any other way. “the majority of Iraqis consider that overall things are worse now than before” is clearly a point-blank falsehood, rubbish, poppycock, twaddle, piffle, tomfoolery, nonsense, etc.
I hope this is helpful.
Here’s a really sad article about British torture camps after WWII. I guess it’s universal.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/frontpage/story/0,,1669544,00.html
Shirin, just to be extra crystal clear on what the poll I cited actually represents, I’ve broken down the answers to question 13b, comparing quality of life in eleven categories to the time before the war.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/shared/bsp/hi/pdfs/12_12_05_iraq_data.pdf
Q13 – B. Compared to the time before the war in Spring 2003, would you say [start with first rotated item in Q13A] is much better now, somewhat better, about the same, somewhat worse or much worse?
‘the security situation’ :
better/much better — 44.3%
worse/much worse — 38.5%
‘the availability of jobs’
better/much better — 31.9%
worse/much worse — 39.4%
‘the supply of electricity’
better/much better — 29.4%
worse/much worse — 37.5%
‘availability of clean water’
better/much better — 33.2%
worse/much worse — 27.5%
‘medical care’
better/much better — 37%
worse/much worse — 21.2%
local schools
better/much better — 40.6%
worse/much worse — 14.2%
local government
better/much better — 36.4%
worse/much worse — 26.8%
‘availability of basic things you need for your household’
better/much better — 43.2%
worse/much worse — 25.6%
‘your family’s protection from crime’
better/much better — 44.6%
worse/much worse — 29.4%
‘your family’s economic situation’
better/much better — 42.6%
worse/much worse — 23.8%
‘Your freedom of speech’
better/much better — 47%
worse/much worse — 25.2%
As anyone can see, the Iraqis in this poll seem to prefer present conditions to those before the war in 9 of 11 categories. ‘Availability of jobs’ and ‘supply of electricity’ are the only exceptions.
So I’m unclear how you arrived at “the majority of Iraqis consider that overall things are worse now than before.” That’s not what the poll shows. Your reading of the poll is shall we say — IMAGINATIVE (I prefer ‘imaginative’ to ‘confused’ or ‘deranged’ each of which has pejorative overtones, don’t you? We’re all friends here.)