The noted Israeli military historian Martin Van Creveld has now written in the US Jewish newspaper Forward that:
- The question is no longer if American forces will be withdrawn, but how soon — and at what cost. In this respect, as in so many others, the obvious parallel to Iraq is Vietnam.
Van Creveld– whose work I have followed, and admired (with some caveats) for more than 20 years now– points out that in Vietnam, at least the retreating US forces had the option of leaving most of their heavy gear behind, with the nominally indepedent Army of the Republic of (south) Vietnam, the ARVN. It then took a couple of further years before that equipment fell into the hands of the North Vietnamese, with the definitive collapse of the ARVN in 1975.
He notes that today, the situation is different. Firstly, there is no opposing government with which the modalities of this withdrawal can be negotiated. In addition, he notes that that the weapons now being used by the US inside Iraq:
- are so few and so expensive that even the world’s largest and richest power can afford only to field a relative handful of them.
Therefore, simply abandoning equipment or handing it over to the Iraqis, as was done in Vietnam, is simply not an option. And even if it were, the new Iraqi army is by all accounts much weaker, less skilled, less cohesive and less loyal to its government than even the South Vietnamese army was. For all intents and purposes, Washington might just as well hand over its weapons directly to Abu Musab al-Zarqawi.
Clearly, then, the thing to do is to forget about face-saving and conduct a classic withdrawal.
As in the nine-point exit plan that I spelled out on July 7, Van Creveld wrote that the retreating US forces will have to be withdrawn through the south of Iraq:
- Handing over their bases or demolishing them if necessary, American forces will have to fall back on Baghdad. From Baghdad they will have to make their way to the southern port city of Basra, and from there back to Kuwait, where the whole misguided adventure began. When Prime Minister Ehud Barak pulled Israel out of Lebanon in 2000, the military was able to carry out the operation in a single night without incurring any casualties. That, however, is not how things will happen in Iraq.
Not only are American forces perhaps 30 times larger, but so is the country they have to traverse. A withdrawal probably will require several months and incur a sizable number of casualties. As the pullout proceeds, Iraq almost certainly will sink into an all-out civil war from which it will take the country a long time to emerge — if, indeed, it can do so at all. All this is inevitable and will take place whether George W. Bush, Dick Cheney, Donald Rumsfeld and Condoleezza Rice like it or not.
Van Creveld does write, however, that a “complete” withdrawal “is not an option”:
- A continued military presence, made up of air, sea and a moderate number of ground forces, will be needed.
First and foremost, such a presence will be needed to counter Iran, which for two decades now has seen the United States as “the Great Satan.” Tehran is certain to emerge as the biggest winner from the war — a winner that in the not too distant future is likely to add nuclear warheads to the missiles it already has. In the past, Tehran has often threatened the Gulf States. Now that Iraq is gone, it is hard to see how anybody except the United States can keep the Gulf States, and their oil, out of the mullahs’ clutches.
A continued American military presence will be needed also, because a divided, chaotic, government-less Iraq is very likely to become a hornets’ nest. From it, a hundred mini-Zarqawis will spread all over the Middle East, conducting acts of sabotage and seeking to overthrow governments in Allah’s name.
The Gulf States apart, the most vulnerable country is Jordan, as evidenced by the recent attacks in Amman. However, Turkey, Egypt and, to a lesser extent, Israel are also likely to feel the impact. Some of these countries, Jordan in particular, are going to require American assistance.
But though he writes that a complete withdrawal “is not an option”, from the wording he uses, it’s not clear whether he would foresees that some of the residual force he’s writing about would be stationed inside Iraq, or not. Most likely, not, since he writes specifically about a “withdrawal from Iraq”, not a retrechment/redeployment of forces inside the country. The residual force he has in mind would therefore, it seems, most likely be stationed just “over the horizon” from Iraq– with components most likely dispersed among Kuwait, Qatar, Bahrain, and the in-Gulf US Navy presence.
In my book, a sizeable residual force would still be a force for quite unwarranted US intervention in the region. We should aim for its dismantling, too– as part of the much broader re-ordering of US relations with the rest of the world that will be needed in order to build a world marked by real human equality.
Nevertheless, Van Creveld’s plan seems to go significantly further than, for example, Juan Cole’s plan of leaving a significant US residual force inside Iraq. It is great to have this clear-eyed strategic realist and very experienced military historian writing that what I have been advocating for a while now has indeed become a necessity.
Van Creveld concludes, quite pointedly:
- Maintaining an American security presence in the region, not to mention withdrawing forces from Iraq, will involve many complicated problems, military as well as political. Such an endeavor, one would hope, will be handled by a team different from — and more competent than — the one presently in charge of the White House and Pentagon.
For misleading the American people, and launching the most foolish war since Emperor Augustus in 9 B.C sent his legions into Germany and lost them, Bush deserves to be impeached and, once he has been removed from office, put on trial along with the rest of the president’s men. If convicted, they’ll have plenty of time to mull over their sins.
Well said!
Van Creveld, I should note, is no raving lefty anti-American. He’s a very sober historian whose tag-line there at the the Forward tells us that, “He is the only non-American author on the U.S. Army’s required reading list for officers.
And I forgot to tell you the title of his article there. It is this: Costly Withdrawal Is the Price To Be Paid for a Foolish War.
Impeachment and trial. Yes. After this debacle, nothing short of a complete rejection of the Bushco insanity will start the complete strategic and moral rehabilitation of the United States.
Perhaps the whole neocon gang could be persuaded to fall on their swords together–which would be the very first action of the Bush government that even looks like it was motivated by honesty and decency.
“the only non-American author on the U.S. Army’s required reading list for officers”
Can this be true? No Machiavelli, no Clausewitz, no Liddell Hart?
They could do with reading Xenophon right now, poor dears.
What a pile of crap. Either the U.S. withdraws or it does not withdraw. This is not a call for withdrawal, but for a change in tactics.
I agree with Shirin. This is the voice of a different faction in the same army, pursuing the same imperialisdt goals. It’s more of a career move than anything else.
“The recent discovery of his proposed peace map for the Arabs, drawn up in 1919, together with his writings on how to fight and work with them, have offered a timely insight into the events unfolding in Iraq nearly 90 years later.”
LAWRENCE OF ARABIA – LIFE & LEGEND AT THE IMPERIAL WAR MUSEUM
I wonder if those who now shouting loudly and talking about Iraq invasion,is if one person Arab/Muslim do or did what this guy did or this historian or others, what can happened? Just question to all of you.
All you are taking about humans and the peace and the justices or democracy and human rights, all these words you chewing them every day in every writing here and there, is it time to look to your acts toward this nation? Stop these arguments and is it time to take off your masks…
“they also said that the Iraqi soldiers were formidable. The Iraqis fought to the death. They said that the Iraqis didn’t have good training or weaponry. But if they ever did, they would be a threat to Israel. They said that Iraq had a large population and a lot of oil wells.”
“The United States has done terrible things to that country. If they hate us in the future, it’s no wonder.”
American-born Nita Renfrew went to Israel as an idealistic young liberal who wanted to experience life in a country she believed was a model for the world.
For misleading the American people, and launching the most foolish war since Emperor Augustus in 9 B.C sent his legions into Germany and lost them, Bush deserves to be impeached and, once he has been removed from office, put on trial along with the rest of the president’s men. If convicted, they’ll have plenty of time to mull over their sins.
Martin Van Creveld may be a brilliant military historian, but I believe he needs some schooling in the US Constitution. Jonathan may want to comment on this, but I don’t believe that “misleading the American people” constitutes a “high crime or misdemeanor”; in fact I don’t think it is a crime at all (if it were, pretty much every US politician would be in jail).
So, I think that the neo-isolationist coven should probably not hold their collective breath waiting for the neocon cabal to be put on trial.
JES, believe me, no one’s holding their breath about seeing any accountability whatsoever from this administration.
JES wrote:
“but I don’t believe that “misleading the American people” constitutes a “high crime or misdemeanor”
and what about “launching the most foolish war since Emperor Augustus in 9 B.C sent his legions into Germany and lost them”? Wouldn’t that qualify for impeachment? (of course not, since launching ‘foolish wars’ is normal practice in American politics. The question is, of course, purely rhetorical).
I’m surprised that this open letter of former President Jimmy Carter doesn’t get more attention. Republicans were almost able to impeach Bill Clinton because of a private love/sex affair, which he tried to hide. Meanwhile, as Paul Krugman says it(*), there is not much probability that Bush could be held accountable. Yet, his lies have driven America into an illegal war, which he managed so poorly that it is turning into a catastrophe, both in matters of foreign policy and finances. When a President is put under pressure for months because of an ill turned love affair, but another one is able to get off untouched despite multiple lies which lead to an illegal war, a war which he managed with total incompetence, then you come to the conclusion that things are really upside down in America.
Conclusion : it is urgent to call for Bush impeachment, even if we know that this won’t succeed as long as the Republicans hold the majority in the Congress and Senate.
(*) I think it was in this article, but I can’t check because its no longer free on the web.
I agree with Shirin and Dominic, that Van Creveld’s call for exiting Iraq isn’t a call for a fundamental change of the US foreing policy in ME. Nevertheless, he has made a very important step : this is not less than the recognition that the Iraq invasion has failed and that is a serious defeat for all the hawks in America (and the reason why they are so reluctant to admit it).
I agree with Shirin and Dominic, that Van Creveld’s call for exiting Iraq isn’t a call for a fundamental change of the US foreing policy in ME. Nevertheless, he has made a very important step : this is not less than the recognition that the Iraq invasion has failed and that is a serious defeat for all the hawks in America (and the reason why they are so reluctant to admit it).
One of the most vexing issues with this administration is their repeated indulgenece in what economists refer to as moral hazard: essentially being bailed out of disasterous mistakes at no cost to themselves only to indulge in more of the same behavior. It should be noted that this pattern of behavior by Bush Jr was established prior his assumption of the Presidency: he was repeatedly bailed out of dead-ended situations before (failed business ventures, failed service in Vietnam etc). The reason for the bail-out in this case (to be effected by maintaining control of Iraq through proxies together with scaled down American miltary persence) is that the cost to the Middle East of a total US withdrawal from Iraq (chaos) outways the benefit of the imposing a cost (loss of American influence, impeachement etc). I suspect that unless a cost is imposed there is no deterrence of this crowd from committing the same “mistakes” again.
” Nevertheless, he has made a very important step ”
Um, Van creveld has opposed the war in Iraq since before it even began. His position today is the same as it was in 2002, when the “sober historian” predicted the invasion would provide cover while Sharon ethnically cleansed the West Bank.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2002/04/28/wpal28.xml
vivion wrote:
JES, believe me, no one’s holding their breath about seeing any accountability whatsoever from this administration.
It’s mighty encouraging to see the “reality based community” edging toward reality. Turns out after all that holding one’s breath doesn’t stack up very well against fascism (the US-imperial-warmonger kind or the far deadlier Ba’athist variety) Who knew that breath holding, weapon of choice for five-year-olds throughout history, was actually so ineffective against a modern army carrying real weapons?? Too bad it took 12 years & the lives of 500,000 Iraqis to reach this consensus.
Helena: the withdrawal scenario he outlines is pretty scary. Terrifying, in fact.
BTW, Salah posted a link to the “American Free Press” which is run by Willis Carto, a lunatic.
Van Creveld’s sobriety notwithstanding, it is highly likely that multiple contingency plans exist for the ethnic cleansing of Palestinians. Decent folks around the world underestimate the possibility of such madness actually taking place at their own (of their species’ more like) peril…
Christiane,
You see, the US has a Constitution that governs this sort of thing. A president can only be removed from office if he is impeached (i.e. indicted) and then convicted of having committed a high “crime or misdemeanor”. “Lying to the American people” is not a crime and neither is carrying out a foolish war or a foolish policy.
How can I explain this to you? Well, you see getting a blowjob from a White House intern is certainly not a “high crime or misdemeanor”. Neither is going on television and denying the blowjob. Lying to a grand jury, however, is perjury and is a “high crime or misdemeanor”. And that is why Bill Clinton was impeached.
Diana,
BTW, Salah posted a link to the “American Free Press” which is run by Willis Carto, a lunatic.
Give US your prove for your claims Diana
Yah, may Willis Carto “lunatic” but Nita Renfrew I don’t think she is also “lunatic”.
Her work as Spanish correspondent for LeMonde Diplomatique, the well-known French foreign affairs journal. She has been a radio commentator and is the author of Saddam Hussein, an authoritative and objective (but very hard to find) biography of the Iraqi leader.
All this and you classified who run the site and who post on that site are “lunatic” the only thing I can say because she accused Israel she became “lunatic” , crazy and Nut all sort of these words fly every where.
Why you be more open instead telling us what’s wrong with Nita Renfrew report and conclusion and correct her if there are any falls climes you might you believe not true, is it better than color her and the owner of that site as “lunatic”.
Curious way to promote yourself – claim that you’re the only non-American on some Pentagon required reading list for officers. Well, as the father of one such officer, I’d like to know just what is on this presumed “approved” reading list? Anybody have a clue? Or better yet, a link?
By the way, I’ve heard anecdotal accounts of this or that US general in Iraq throwing out the “required reading list” and instead replacing it with, shall we say, “off the neocon reservation” books re. Iraq….
“Mr. BIDEN: Today, I want to talk to you about Iraq. I want to start by addressing the question on the minds of most Americans: when will we bring our troops home?”
To me I can not believe that US will leave Iraq or the region.
The investment done with Iraq war it’s very big and it’s done for many years of planning some sources put it back when GWB elected first time to the white House.
I thing Sharoon recent move asking for early election,he would to harvest the US investment in Iraq and he need to take lead in this .
He is not an angel!! but he knew how to hunt the opportunities. some sources highlight he was a member of six parties but by this move he distancing himself from Israeli extremist”left” to right wing making himself more moderated.
Let not forgot the fact that David Ben-Gurion said one day
“The Arab people have been beaten by us. Will they forget it quickly? Seven hundred thousand people beat 30 million. Will they forget this offense? It can be assumed that they have a sense of honor. We will make peace efforts, but two sides are necessary for peace. Is there any security that they will not want to take revenge? Let us recognize the truth: we won not because we performed wonders, but because the Arab army is rotten. Must this rottenness persist forever?”
So Iraq under US occupation will be divided to three states that will dismantled the State of Iraq forever this is all about as pre WWI when Britt’s and France and other Impairs did of crating the Arab States now its another time for US to draw new map on the ground taking in account the interest of Israelis.
what ever from time to time some one jump and talking about withdraw troops this is not the real fact or issue as such this for domestic politics marking not more.
As Martin van Creveld said in one of his writing:
“Iraq will probably disintegrate into three parts, i.e. a Shi`ite South, a Sunni Center, and a Kurdish North. Judging by the fact that the last-named has never been able to overcome its tribal divisions, none of the three is likely to develop into a proper, centrally-ruled, state. The most likely outcome is three mini-Afghanistans that will serve as havens for terrorist activities throughout the Middle East.”
It’s all serving Israel interest in the region and her drams….
Salah, here’s a website you might find interesting:
http://www.davidduke.com/index.php?p=4
Helena,
Here are two links about Carto.
http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=American_Free_Press
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Willis_Carto
I report, you decide. It seems I was too generous when I called Carto a “lunatic.” He’s actually a Nazi.
Should you allow your commenters to disseminate Nazi propaganda (albeit second-hand) on your site? Salah’s comments are not “courteous, fresh, helpful or to the point”.
How does Salah get to comment w/out providing an email? When I tried to comment here without providing my email (to avoid spam), the software rejected my comment.
Why you be more open instead telling us what’s wrong with Nita Renfrew report and conclusion
Well, let’s start with the fact that she doesn’t name the kibbutz where her little story allegedly occurred, nor does she name any of the people involved. Leaving the names out is the easiest way to make a story uncheckable – that way, nobody can call Florence Shapiro and ask if she really got her leg blown off or find out if Kibbutz Hazor really grew bananas in 1968. Whenever I see a story without names – especially one as implausible as Renfrew’s – I think “bullshit.”
It’s also funny how the only mentions of Renfrew on the internet appear to involve (1) the interview you linked, or (2) her 1992 book on Saddam (in which she apparently denies that he gassed the Kurds). You’d figure that a Monde Diplo writer working out of Spain would appear in a few other places, and on a few other topics.
(2) her 1992 book on Saddam (in which she apparently denies that he gassed the Kurds).
In regard to this saga, there are many article and study support this also, one of them went to state that Iraq has not the type of chemical material that used in that area but Iran had it!! More over that the area where the gassing happened was in fact under Iranians control before Iraqi entered the area when Iranians withdraw from it!!!!!…
Don’t forgot Jonathan US knew very well who gassed the Kurds and they knew very well what sort of chemicals he had all we know that Ramy shacked hands with Sddam in 1985 and supplied the chemical to him.
Al other are many incident that Iraq and Iran used the chemicals gases during 8 years war in different area.
Dominic and Escott: The newspaper is wrong about van C being the only such author, what I believe they meant to say was that he is the only author, living or dead, with 2 works on the list (required reading for the Army War College or something – I’ve seen the list meant but don’t recall the details – of course there were the usual non-American suspects on it also.) Anyway, it is a reflection of how respected he is in the military establishment.
Hey Jonathan, JES – what do you guys think of this take by Gwynne Dyer on Sharon’s latest move?
http://www.cyprus-mail.com/news/main.php?id=22991&cat_id=1
Is Peretz really “setting the agenda?”
About Willis Carto:
http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=American_Free_Press
and
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Willis_Carto
Not only a lunatic, a Nazi.
Hi all. Just returned online after doing family stuff. H’m I never heard of Willis Carto before. Thanks for providing the links, Diana. It’ll take me a bit of time to check ’em out. I am so behind!
Hi Helena. Missed you. Hope everything is o.k. at home.
John R, now you say “they meant to say was that he is the only author, living or dead, with 2 works on the list”. This is a piece of quantitative boosterism of the kind done by US advertising copywriters, and deliberately says nothing about the quality or nature of the man’s work. It is dust in the eyes.
“The military establishment” is another weazel form of words. There is no such single entity. This is contested terrain. There are only warring camps.
Escott is right. The whole idea of a required reading list reeks of partisan indoctrination.
Regarding this exit from Iraq business – when you hear Senators and Representatives arguing over conditions and timetables for withdrawal of troops, you have to remember that there is still an overwhelming consensus among elites in the U.S. that we are entitled to a perpetual supply of cheap oil from the Middle East, and that any potential threat to that supply must be neutralized. Bush is in disfavor right now, not because he committed war crimes in launching an unprovoked war on false pretenses, but because he has failed to achieve the objective. The oil supply is in greater danger now than before the offensive began. The debate is about how to restore control, not how to relinquish it.
Liberal hero-du-jour John Murtha has zero interest in helping Iraqis to live in freedom and democracy. He is interested in maintaining U.S. military supremacy throughout the world, and especially in oil producing areas. He sees Bush’s Iraq failure as a direct threat to that supremacy (and rightly so). What he wants to do about it is substitute air power, covert action, and stand-off weaponry for boots on the ground – basically make all of Iraq a “no fly” and “no mechanized infantry” zone.
Juan Cole exemplifies this attitude as well. He is, after all, a product and an employee of the institutionalized American education system. In high academia, as in high government, no one who says “why don’t we just leave those people in the Middle East alone and let them sort out their own destiny” is likely to be taken seriously by their peers. It’s just too easy to make that position look hopelessly naive.
The only way to change this paradigm is through military defeat and economic collapse. It just so happens that we are on the verge of both. We have the misfortune of living in interesting times.
John C wrote: “The only way to change this paradigm is through military defeat and economic collapse.”
This is a version of the views once put forward by Wilhelm Weitling and P-J Proudhon.
It sounds ferocious, because it appears to advocate a kind of disaster therapy. But the net effect is to demobilise the forces that could actually change the situation.
If not an advocacy of quietism, John C’s view would have to be an advocacy of terrorism. It says that things must get as bad as possible before they can get better.
Either way the result is that people of this persuasion will attack, stridently, any attempt at organising for the better, whether as mass movements such as trade unions, political parties, or a peace movement. But a positive peace movement is what is needed now, and not a death-wishing fatalism of this kind.
Diana,
“Should you allow your commenters to disseminate Nazi propaganda (albeit second-hand) on your site? Salah’s comments are not “courteous, fresh, helpful or to the point”
Come down Dianna, I never heard about Willis Carto when I post.
I am not a Nazi or one of them at all but I found that report in that site while I did Google by search for some thing.If you find that offensive for you and other Jew I am apologised for this mistake and please forgive me for unknowing this guy.
But I surprised with your comment above, why this accusations Dianna? If some one talking about Israel will labelled with the list of words you put it?
Is it Israel unquestionable state in the world?
Is it Israel above the international law?
Is it Israel the chosen state?
When the time you and other panel from Jonathan, David, JES, and Vedum and few other who posting here relies that the state of Israel as same as other states in the world there are bad things and good thinks when you guys realized and accepted the other views and be open minded.
How does Salah get to comment w/out providing an email? When I tried to comment here without providing my email (to avoid spam), the software rejected my comment.
I never hide my email Dianna, its same thing happened to me if I submit my post. May be Helena have the answer for that?
I got few personal emails from some friends with this site by using my email address I pass it here. Do you would like to put my email in your black list?
Also I admitted I got a lot of “Rubbish” emails when I start posting in this site some of them so offensive and bad.
John C,
What do I think? Well let me ask you what you would have thought about an article about Yasir Arafat, say back 10 years ago, that began with the words: “CAN THE old war criminal really want to end his political career by making peace with Israel?” Gynne Dyer’s piece isn’t an analysis. It’s a political screed, and, for the most part, I think that her own political prejudices prevent her from really understanding what she’s talking about.
“Sharon did not choose the timing of his dramatic moves.” Bull. Had Ms. Dyer been listening to what’s been going on in Israel, it has been clear here, since at least this past spring when the reingagement plan was finalized, that Sharon was probably going to have to move. Analysts in Israel have been talking about the “Bing Bang” (as in how the universe began) since about that time, in which Sharon (or Sharon together with Peres) form a new party to continue with further disengagement plans. Sharon and his advisors have been planning the move ever since. This had nothing to do with Amir Peretz – he wasn’t even given a chance of winning, even up to the day of the polls.
Peretz is presenting a platform based on the fact that investment in the territories takes money from the poor. I support him in this. I also supported both Rabin and Peres, and even Amram Mitzna, when they put forward platforms based on the same argument.
Dyer then provides us with a revised history, with Rabin murdered because “he was willing to let Palestinians have their own state….” Rabin never, to the best of my knowledge, mentiond the words “state” and “Palestinian” together, unless qualified with a negative. The reason that he could publicly support Oslo was that it intentionally left such issues as a Palestinian state and the status of Jerusalem as vague items to be dealt with in the future. In all fairness, Sharon has been the first Prime Minister of Israel to publicly state that the goal is to end the occupation and for the Palestinians to have a state. (I may not support Sharon politically, but at least I’m willing to give him credit where it is due.)
Dyer could also pay a little more attention to what Peretz has done, is doing and what he has said in launching his campaign. He is clearly in favor of a permanent agreement and a Palestinian state, and he sees these – and himself – as a continuation of the Rabin legacy. All that is why I will probably vote Labour in March.
But Peretz was not, as has been reported, a signatory to the Geneva Accord. Further, it was only a matter of days following his visit to Yitzhak and Leah Rabin’s graves that Amir Peretz made it clear that he was firmly opposed to dividing Jerusalem and to the Right of Return.
I think that Dyer simply does not understand Sharon and probably hasn’t taken the time to do so. (I don’t particularly like Sharon, but at least I trouble myself to listen to what the man says and where he comes from.)
As the local political analyst Hannan Crystal regularly reminds us, Sharon is the last Mapainik – that is, he is the last remnant of the original Labour Party under Ben-Gurion. When Sharon helped found the Likud party back in the early 1970s, it was as a “centrist” party comprising the nationalist Herut Party and the Independent Liberals who, together with former Labour generals such as Sharon and Shlomo “Chich” Lahat, considered the Labour Party as “radical” left. Dyer keeps on referring to Likud as “hard-right”, but the Likud has very public members ranging from Meir Shitritt – a pro-Oslo moderate – to Moshe Feiglin – a true “ultra-rightist” who only joined the Likud in an attempt to take it over. In fact, that Likud has no single ideology, and that – not Sharon’s “manipulations” – is part of the reason that it is currently falling apart.
Today – and it is early – it looks like Israel is headed for a Kadima-headed government in coalition with Labour and either Shinui or Shas, numbering between 65 and 70 MKs. This government, headed by Sharon, will be in the best position to make peace of any Israeli government in the past 30 years, because it won’t have to scour the Knesset to get a one-vote majority, as Rabin had to do, when push comes to shove. Husni Mubarak said as much yesterday, and I trust him on such matters more than I do Gwynne Dyer.
Dominic,
Having felt many times like John C describes, I find your response inspirational. Not sure how it translates into action, but nonetheless it is a fresh third alternative.
David
I’m happy that you are inspired, David, but let’s be a little bit careful here. Mine is not a fresh, third alternative. It is the 160-year-old alternative worked out by Karl Marx and Frederick Engels in the 1840s against Wilhelm Weitling and P-J Proudhon.
For the record Weitling left for the USA in disgust, and missed the 1848 revolutions. In Proudhon’s case, he ceased communication with Karl Marx following the publication of the latter’s book “The Poverty of Philosophy” in 1847, one year before the Communist Manifesto.
This argument is the crucible within which the whole of subsequent world political history was forged. The reason is that Marx was able to show that Proudhon’s was not an alternative at all. It was only the bitter face of the disappointed bourgeois loser, who wanted the dice to be thrown again, to get another chance.
There are not three alternatives, but nowadays only two. In the words of the Manifesto they are: Bourgeois and Proletarian.
Dianna,
Look to this, a elderly Palestinian woman hug her loving Olive tree after Israeli Solders ruin here farm in west bank in Salim town after they pull 200 Olive trees from her land… this just today news Dianna….
What’s a life under Israeli occupation…?
With apologies been out of topics
Salah,
It is indeed a terrible thing, the destruction of over 200 of the village’s olive trees. The olive harvest this year has been very bad to begin with, and this will have a devastating affect on the village livelihood. I sincerely hope that the 15 settlers (not soldiers!) who did this are quickly brought to justice and punished severely.
Hi. I just checked the Wikipedia listing for Willis Carto, who from that description does look like a very very sad old white supremacist and a Holocaust denier.
I actually believe that, in general, the answer to hate speech is more speech, and in a sense by encouraging us to find out more about Carto that’s what Diana has spurred here. So that’s good.
Regarding the email addresses. The MT 3.2 software that I installed a couple of months ago does not routinely include that information when it presents the comments on the public site. In general, I think that’s prudent. I guess I could change that setting if I wanted to, but I don’t. What it does present are home websites/blog addresses, which is what you get if you click on Diana’s name, or mine. I like this setting.
Anyway, this is just to make clear that no commenters are now “hiding” their email addresses in any underhand way… But folks who want to give a discreet boost to their home websites have a classy and easy way to do so.
Very strange move after more than three years in terrorist missions.
Al Khalaiylah Family in Jordan on 20th of November they issued in the main pages of Jordanians newspapers that they regarded Al Zarqawi out of the Al Khalaiyla family and no longer a member of Al Khalaiylah family.
Its came after the Jordanian bombing, YES the Iraqis are not Muslims or innocents people! It’s OK to killed by terrorist Zarqawi!!!, but when terrorist missions coming home he is not our SON!!!
More surprisingly that a few of his brothers and relatives sent a letter condemned and denied the family announcement they regarded him a hero fighting Al Kufar in Maca, Iraq and the West!!!
What’s a stupid and strange are these killers and believers, when these people weak up……
What’s a shame that ISLAM have some like these saying “WE ARE MUSLIMS”.
1. Sorry for the virtual double-posting. The first reply to Salah didn’t appear for a while so I thought it was rejected for some obscure reason (this happened once on Jonathan’s website), so posted the same links again, w/o comments.
2. Banning commenters is a tricky business, Helena. Obviously, this is up to you–but if someone uses a website in bad faith, as simply a covert way to disseminate neo-Nazi propaganda…and not to advance the discussion, I’d think of that. I agree w/you that the answer to hate speech is sunlight, but sometimes it doesn’t work that way. Usenet newsgroups became so polluted with hate speech that they just became cesspools.
3. Salah, to answer your questions,
“Is it Israel unquestionable state in the world?
Is it Israel above the international law?
Is it Israel the chosen state? ”
No to all three.
You should check out your sources more carefully.
This is the kind of diversionary garbage that has prevented Israelis and Palestinians from facing each other as individuals of good faith and trying to work something out. Ultimately, that is what’s going to have to happen, regardless of what Salah and Diana say to each other on this comment line.
I am assuming that Salah is not Palestinian, which of course, could be wrong. Am I wrong, Salah?
“This is the kind of diversionary garbage that has prevented Israelis and Palestinians from facing each other as individuals of good faith and trying to work something out.”
No, it isn’t. The kind of garbage that has prevented Israelis and Palestinians from “working something out” has nothing to do with words and everything to do with bombs, bullets, bulldozers, slow ethnic cleansing, and creeping land theft.
Another authoritative post, eh Shirin?
What “slow ethnic cleansing”? The Arab population in Israel has more than doubled since 1948. The Arab population of the West Bank and Gaza has grown at an average 4% rate per annum since 1967. So, that “ethnic cleansing” you’re talking about must be pretty imperceptive, in fact so much so that it isn’t happening!
JES, are you being disingenuous, or are you really that unaware of reality?
“or are you really that unaware of reality?”
Shirin if its that obvious, again why not cite some statistics documenting your claim? How can the occupied territories or Israel proper be undergoing “ethnic cleansing” when the Arab population in both regions is going up?
ps, to add to the earlier Efraim Karsh stats cited by JES, I’d note that the 2003 UN Human development index for the west bank and gaza (.73) is on a par with that of syria (.72) and jordan (.76) and considerably higher than that of egypt (.66).
“No, it isn’t. The kind of garbage that has prevented Israelis and Palestinians from “working something out” has nothing to do with words and everything to do with bombs, bullets, bulldozers, slow ethnic cleansing, and creeping land theft…”
Bombs, bullets, bulldozers, slow ethnic cleansing and creeping land theft is what makes it impossible for Palestinians to listen to Israelis (or Jews) and think that the two sides can negotiate in good faith.
Quoting Nazi sources, suicide bombings, and hunting Jews as if they were wild game in the rest of the world is the thing that makes it hard for Jews (like me) to listen to Arabs and negotiate in good faith.
I was simply speaking for myself. Please don’t speak for me, or direct my speech. And, I request that you observe norms of basic civility when addressing me, Ms. Shirin.
JES – thanks for your comments on Gwynne Dyer’s article. He’s a man, by the way (he’s from Newfoundland). I generally find him worth reading, but I thought his claims in the particular piece cited above sounded like a stretch.
“If not an advocacy of quietism, John C’s view would have to be an advocacy of terrorism.”
Dominic, you don’t seem able to distinguish between advocacy and analysis. I made a comment about the shared mindset of political elites in the U.S. I opined that this collective elite mindset was unlikely to undergo a paradigm shift absent catastrophic defeat, which is in the process of occurring. Did you think my comments were inaccurate? If so, how? I did not conclude that because of this, peace activists should just give up and wait for the sky to fall. There is certainly a vital role for advocacy. We may not be able to stop the elites from pursuing their agenda, but we can certainly make it more difficult for them to succeed. Indeed, we have done so in the case of the Iraq war.
By the way, Seymour Hersh just published an article in the New Yorker that largely supports the line of analysis I have been pursuing here for months – that as the ground war inevitably winds down, Bush will want to ramp up the air war, which would result in substantially increased civilian deaths with no strategic benefit – just like Vietnam. Will you now call Hersh a defeatist with his own imperialist agenda?
JC, you are right, I don’t recognise the distinction between advocacy and analysis. Your analysis in particular is full of values and definitions that I don’t share. Meaning that in your so-called analysis there is already a point of view that you are advocating, all the more insistently, because tacitly.
For example the phrase “mindset of political elites” implies a lot. “Mindset” is the subjective factor: do you think it is determinant? I think human beings make history, but not in circumstances of their own choosing.
The phrase “political elites” is an abomination. It is an attempt to over-ride class with an idea of an imaginary stronger force than class called “elitism” in the abstract. I reject this phrase outright.
I don’t think your comments were so much inaccurate as plain garbage. Sorry to be blunt, but it’s time we got over this.
Seymour Hersh is a journalist. I don’t know why you quote him here. Do you think you can cash his actual or implied views like a cheque? This points to another problem. I believe that US attempts to construct a peace movement are affected by the presumption of being able to conduct political affairs through celebrities and role models. I tell you, it’s not that kind of thing. The medium is the message, and that message is not your message.
A peace movement has to be of the masses, by the masses. The masses have to be mature and adult to conduct a peace movement, and not keep searching for a paternal Hersh or Chomsky or a maternal Sheehan. It will not be a healthy peace movement until the distance between the rank and file and these prominenti is reduced to near nothing.
OK, Dominic. I’m giving up on this dialogue. Good luck with the revolution.
No problem, JC. No hard feelings I hope.
I do have to deflect your Parthian shot. I am not here acvocating for revolution over there, but only for an effective mass peace movement in the USA. Of course we may want to have revolutions, in which case your peace movement’s job will be to keep your government from interfering with these revolutions of ours.
Hey Dominic, I am sorry but I absorb better ideas from my contemporaries (like yourself) than from two centuries ago. It may have something to do with the ease of a dialogue, but then again I am finding it is hard for you even to accept a compliment, let alone a criticism… I suspect you are much more receptive face to face, right?
David
Once in a while it is worthwhile to recap what we learned from our own Iraqi insider, Salah.
We just learned that Salah was a soldier and fought in the Iran-Iraq war, and the first Gulf War. Based on his experience he has been promoting the solid qualities of the Iraqi soldier while faulting somebody else for the overtime tie of the Iran war, and the 100 hours Iraq lasted against the coalition invasion. Remember the mother of all wars? Iraq was then at the peak of its military might, lasted 100 hours but Iraqi soldiers queuing to surrender before the invasion started.
Now instead of rebuilding his needy country, Salah has come to the US, clearly not out of ideological affinity, and must be facing the humiliation of living in the place that defeated his mighty soldiers, and whose values and foreign policy he detests. From here he has been preaching the underlying fraternity of the Iraqi factions, along with the ability of the Arab Uma and its political arm, the Arab League, to solve all inter-Arab problems. Well, reality hasn’t been kind, Iraq is being ravaged by a civil war, the methods devised by the Arab Uma to hurt Israel and the West are blowing back with a vengeance and victimizing Iraqis, while the Arab and Iraqi factions are proving they cannot agree on anything beyond who to hate or blame (outside the Arab world, of course). When confronted with such contradictions he takes us back to Iraq’s British domination and the Machiavellian master plans that put Lawrence of Arabia in bed with Cheney through Ben Gurion and some American neo-nazi lunatic scripting every move for the next two centuries on how to screw up his people.
The latest bridge Salah is selling us is around Zarkawi (either as a person or an idea) being a moslem aberration and maybe even an American instrument.
Having the Iraqi perspective is indeed very enlightening, and I would even venture to say that Salah really believes his own stories.
Scary.
David
Ms. Shirin,
Regarding land theft, I truly do feel your pain. But in the case of Gaza, what was the reason for Palestinians to trash greenhouses that had been donated to them by, among others, American Jews, who spent $14 million of their own money to DONATE this property to the Palestinian Authority? Is this not a case of a good faith offer being spurned?
Diana
Link:http://www.kansascity.com/mld/kansascity/news/nation/12637984.htm
Palestinians to trash greenhouses that had been donated to them by, among others, American Jews, who spent $14 million of their own money to DONATE this property to the Palestinian Authority? Is this not a case of a good faith offer being spurned?
Diana,
For Palestinians the land worth their life you know, beer in minds that the Palestinians had and have lost their farms and Olives tree which plated for generations and they live on these crops what the Israelis “Military/Settlers” done to them is destroying them or bulldozers their farms and homes.
Your donations went to the Israelis and on tope of that there is government compensations and more from US aids which US tax money when to Israel “3 Billions /Year”.
BTW, Dianna the Arab/Israeli conflict its not Muslim/Jew war its between Palestinians/Arab and Israelis that’s it, from your post you trying to labels its Arab/Jew its not right and the Jews never been hunted in our society at all if there are few incidents its done by individuals and its don by criminal not by government like in Germany or Fran or East Europe..
David,
This garbage you put it meaning less just reflect your view and your hatreds to Arab/Muslims and Iraqis, and your bridges it Dial Pipes who is your ideology David.
The reality US with its massive power attacked a very small country like Iraq and you proud what you call 100 hour war this is “Rubbish” David you prod of, this is not a war this is childish war.
BTW, Iraq put under sections for 13 years until then you attacked the country if you think that you are up to this nation why you don’t attack it in 1991 then?
Live in your dreams David and read the history of Iraq very very then we will see you then with the team who came on top of US Tanks entered Baghdad after “100 hour war”.
You should be ashamed if you are Americans for the crimes and the odd things done in Iraq… Enough pashing us with these meaning personal attacks, keep your thoughts to yourself.
David,
You and most of the Israelis we read it here few times that Jamal Abdul Nasser saying ”We will through Israeli to the sea”…. You keep quoting some speeches and words from our mouths and marking them in the western world loudly for years, just look to your Fox/CNN or other you find a lot of these things all around.
When your politicians like Bin Gorion and other planed and determents to draw the Israeli polices for decades in Palestine you blaming me of “scripting every move for the next two centuries on how to screw up his people” strange David…
Diana, You are not the only doner to Israil
Home of al-Jazeera donates football stadium in Israel
“and the 100 hours Iraq lasted against the coalition invasion.”
David, is it about Western ‘manhood’ (figuratively speaking) or maybe about your own ?
US spend $400+ bln on defence annualy (yeah- rather on wars, every 8 years or so). And it’s more then next dozen of ‘superpowers’ combined, I guess. Why do they need it so much for ? To ‘defend’ themselves in every corner of the World ? (rethorical question). Of course they can beat the hell out of any other country – especially a weak one (Iraq after years of sanctions)
Then this one:
“while the Arab and Iraqi factions are proving they cannot agree on anything beyond who to hate or blame…” Well, for whatever happens in Iraq, it is US which is responsible – as an occupying power, and if they don’t like, then just get the hell of of it and let Iraqis and Arabs to sort things out. Maybe they (Iraqis, Arabs) fail, maybe they succeed, but it’s entirely up to them, like for any other country. Clear ?
What Salah (as I understand) underlining is, is constant interference of Western powers in Middle East (oil).
What Salah (as I understand) underlining is, is constant interference of Western powers in Middle East (oil).
You quite right Andrew, thanks…
I would like to ask David, how many Arab countries he visited in his life?
If he did could he be truthful here in his answer to us through Helena’s Site, why he hid his ideology/hate towards Arabs he talks to?
I am sure whom they treated him as a gussets and make him feel home with most welcomes, you know the wealth of the welcomes that Arabs/Muslims give to their gusset…, may Helena give us some view for that or Shirin as Americans.
Andrew,
Please re-read my post. It is just about highlighting the fantasy behind stories like Salah’s and the danger of believing their own fantasies. Just listen to Chalabi’s arrogant imagination and his role in taking us to war.
It is also about the generosity of a place that welcomes the recent enemy soldier, and at the same time our stupidity in believing that for a green card a brainwashed foe will turn into friend.
I always said we should leave that place and let them drink their oil if they don’t want to export it. The sooner that happens the sooner we’ll transition to other sources, and the sooner the corrupt sheiks will become irrelevant. BTW Andrew, the 1991 war was fought for and funded by the Saudi sheiks, who with the same American weaponry could not get their hands dirty. Great terrorists, lousy soldiers.
David
Salah,
The Arab/muslim hospitality is well known throughout the world. Its most vivid example was when the US asked Afghanistan to expel Osama Bin Laden and they denied every request replying that it would be against the muslim hospitality to comply.
That hospitality led to a mass grave at ground zero with 3000 people in it.
David
“I always said we should leave that place and let them drink their oil if they don’t want to export it.
David, you still did not give us your answers don’t mangling with the words, don’t changing the subject put it straightforward OK. Tell us the Truth about my call comes forward and be truthful with us and give us answers….
We all knew Bin Laden, we do not need to learn more about crowded criminal trained by you David, exactly Aljalabi you think that this guy coming from Iraq who gained his education in US and rewarded the Pulitzer Prize guided US to this hill, where is CIA intelligent and Think tank, who you fooling David, I think you fooling yourself David. He just near to be called before the war Hero Ahmad
There is saying in Arabic “ أوكعد اعوج واحجي عدل” the translation I hope other understand it “set wrong and speak truthfully”…
This not yours, this statement made by Henry Kissinger after 1973 Arab/Israeli war.
But the time proves him wrong that’s why US went to Afghanistan, Iraq and Black Sea David.
Unfortunately they don’t drink it according to your friend and yours wishes.
David, you keep dashing Helena about her unfortunate visit to Iran. All the time you keep asking flourishing questions from her which obviously she did put all in her post.
Tell us when you did visited Saudi Arabia and meting Prince Bander Bin Sultan?
Tell us your hunting journey in the Saudi desert? or tell us about your visit to Al Maktum, or Al Thany…. come forward tell us David.
Or tell us about visiting Egypt and the all Egyptians security and intelligent forces stand up for the VIP experts from US!
the 1991 war was fought for and funded by the Saudi sheiks, who with the same American weaponry could not get their hands dirty. Great terrorists, lousy soldiers.
Frame This and Keep It David.
This is a prove now from “EXEPRT” mouth!!!!!
We all still waiting for Your Answers David….
OK David, your point is taken. I didn’t mean to be harsh on you, just wanted to voice my opinion on 2 issues you had mentioned.
I agree with you on oil issue (isn’t it all-well-almost all about oil ?). I’m convinced that oil should be sold/bought like any other commodity. Oil-producing countries don’t sell it to us (consumers) because they like us but because they (their people) want things from us in return. It’s called: Trade.
“Tell us when you did visited Saudi Arabia and meting Prince Bander Bin Sultan?”
I am glad you asked Salah!
I tried to visit Saudi Arabia Salah, this was two or three years ago, my confused and dislexic president stood up and told us the Saudis are our friends and partners, Prince Bandar flies directly to his Texas ranch, Saudi students come to the best American Universities (and Florida flying schools…), the Bin Laden family money funds research at Harvard University, so I said maybe I should retribute and visit our friends and partners to learn a bit about them.
Guess what Salah, your freaking hospitable Arab partners told me, through their Washington DC embassy, that I cannot visit them. They told me there is no such thing as an uninvited tourist. I either need to have a Saudi sponsor invite me, or a work relationship with a Saudi company to go there.It gets worse, when I asked about visiting the intriguing places of Mecca and Medina, they told me flat that I cannot set foot on sacred cities if I am not Moslem. Just as if I were a leper, I cannot go there, I am an infidel.
There you have it Salah, that is the hospitality, the fairness, and the partnership we have to swallow for the stinking oil you have under the sand. Do you know what I did? I bought a gas guzzler and I am consuming as much fuel as I can afford. I am happily subsidizing the burning of the dirty oil they have so that it lasts them maybe 20 years instead of 80 years, and once it is gone, who cares about the freaking corrupt polygamous princes anymore. No more sending our youth to fight for them while we send our jobs to Chindia.
David
I either need to have a Saudi sponsor invite me, or a work relationship with a Saudi company to go there. It gets worse, when I asked about visiting the intriguing places of Mecca and Medina, they told me flat that I cannot set foot on sacred cities if I am not Moslem. Just as if I were a leper, I cannot go there, I am an infidel.
Any one can believe David Please.
As far as know US, Britt’s had the loyalty in many gulf courtiers and Saudis, Jordan Egypt Oman …….
In all those courtiers the US citizens get visa stamped at the airports David with Salute from those Freaks Sheiks your friends. Who you freaking with this untruthfully thing, David?
What’s about other countries then?
How many US Citizens and Britt’s Canadians Military Experts or Terrorist like you there who payed by Saudis David.
Don’t mangling again don’t forget be truthful David…
“Experts or Terrorist”
SHOULD BE “Terrorist ExpertS”
Salah,
You have descended into calling me a liar. You are pathethically wrong again. Here is the Saudi embassy web site. Go read, learn, and apologize if these verbs mean anything to your erratic mind.
http://www.saudiembassy.net/Travel/VisaIntro.asp
From their web site:
“Restrictions
Forbidden items include alcohol, narcotics, weapons, ammunition, pork and pornography. Prescription drugs must be documented. Makkah and Madinah hold special religious significance and only persons of the Islamic faith are allowed entry.”
Under the possible visas you’ll see no tourist option:
“Details of requirements for each type of visa:
* Business Visit Visa
* Diplomatic And Official Visa
* Employment Visa
* Extension of Exit/Re-Entry Visa
* Family Visit Visa
* Residence Visa
* Student Visa
* Transit Visa
* Hajj Visa
* Umrah Visa”
And just for kicks for Business Visa it includes:
“Applicants holding the positions mentioned above who are visiting companies that are not registered at SAGIA, in addition to all female applicants, need to obtain an invitation through the Saudi Ministry of Foreign Affairs or any of its offices in Jeddah and Dammam.
An invitation letter, certified by both a Saudi Chamber of Commerce and the Ministry of Foreign Affairs. This letter should include complete information about the company: its location and type of business, in addition to the name, nationality, position, length of visa, purpose of travel and number of entries requested by the applicant. No Chamber of Commerce certification is needed, however, for invitations issued by a government company, such as Saudi Aramco, SABIC, Saudi Arabian Airlines, Ma’aden, or the Saudi Arabian General Investment Authority.”
and even nastier when it gets to Hajj visas, it reads:
“If the applicant has converted to Islam, an Islamic certificate must be presented; this needs to be notarized by an Islamic Center.”
Next question?
David
David,
I don’t need to look to this link obviously because that not for you or other US this general rules not you can be fined any where any courtiers OK. No more freak things David.
More over you keep put your hatred in this site and you never stopped be loudly with that but obviously you hid your ideology/ hate from your Arabs friends you keep chewing Bin Laden this not Bin laden matter, what about before 2001 where are you in Primary school David?
The relation between US and Saudis 100 years old not after Bin Laden 2001 you be Untruthful with all your explanation you tried to run from the real case.
I leave it here to our friends they will tell us what you said it’s a complete truth .
BTW, you knowing Arabic, can you tell us when you learned that language David?
Be a man and stop hiding your double face…
David
These rules applied to your Indian friend who complains about Saudis also, but he came to US after he fill his pockets with their money.
Are you Indian, Sri Lankaian or Thailand’s these roll for those courtiers David.
Look Salah look, read the Saudi link. I was rejected by an Embassy employee and when I asked if she wasn’t ashamed by their discriminatory practices, she answered “don’t blame me, I am Iranian”.
My Indian friend grew up in Kuwait. Any other accusation you’d like to throw at me instead of
admitting your claims were wrong?
David
David, while you are going on and on about Saudia’s policies for admitting people into their country, are you going to also talk about Israel’s discriminatory policies – or perhaps those of the United States? Or will you excuse those by pointing out that every country has a right to determine which non-nationals to admit and which not to admit inside its borders?
Shirin,
I’d be happy to. Neither the US nor Israel have religious or gender based discrimination like the Saudis. In the US the main criteria seem to be to make sure that you don’t overstay your visa, Nazi or Communist party affiliation, and diseases.
Israel as far as I know only limits visit to citizens of countries at war with Israel with absolutely no criteria on religion, color, or gender.
France and Norway, places I have visited, seem to have even tighter criteria than the above. I queued up on a line arriving from Poland into Oslo and it wasn’t pretty. Quite a few were denied entry.
Frankly Shirin, the Saudi posture is indefensible. If you want to hang your credibility on laws that discriminate against women and infidels you must be doing that just to contradict me rather than sympathy for the Saudis. But heck, be my guest.
David
“Neither the US nor Israel have religious or gender based discrimination…”
That is, quite frankly, bullshit, as many, many Muslims and Arabs, and members of other nationalities can tell you from their own experience. And you might want to ask some Americans of “certain” religious persuasions and national backgrounds whether they have experienced discrimination from Israel.
The bottom line, whether you like it or not, is that countries have a right to decide whom they will allow within their borders, and for what reasons. That includes Saudi Arabia.
Oh – and as for your nonsensical non-sequitur about where I supposedly “hang my credibility”, and supposed “sympathy for the Saudis”, I do not “hang my credibility” on anything of the sort.
Frankly I find highly suspect this supposed burning desire you and others who think like you have to visit Saudi Arabia. I also find extremely suspect your supposed outrage at having this desire thwarted. I, for one, have exactly zero desire to set foot in that place, never have, and do not anticipate that I ever will.
Shirin, I’m wondering if you have ever visited Israel, and what discrimination you experienced personally while there.
Vadim,
Just as it is not necessary for you to be a woman living in Saudi Arabia to know that women are discriminated against there, it is not necessary for me to have personally experienced discrimination in Israel to know that Muslims, Arabs, Palestinian-Americans, and Muslim-Americans routinely experience discrimination there.
I am glad Shirin that we share plans not to relocate to Saudi Arabia. Unfortunately in 2001 Saudi Arabia came here, and things are never going to be quite the same. I think we should leave Iraq tomorrow, and the only redemption of the war is that the 2001 events led to disproportionate pain in the Arab Uma, so that in the future radical Islam will know that there is a cost to their outrageous actions.
All the nonsense about bringing democracy to the Arab world is as irrelevant as unlikely.
Thanks for the exchange, and remember: great terrorists, lousy soldiers.
David