AP is reporting that the Association of Muslim Scholars (AMS) in Iraq is calling for the release of the four CPT people abducted on Saturday as well as the German woman who was (separately) abudtced in Iraq last Friday.
In addition to the AMS, the (also Sunni) Chief Mufti of Palestine, Ikrema Sabri, has also called for the CPTers’ release.
AP reported that,
- “These aid workers have stood beside (the) Palestinian people and it’s our duty now to stand beside them,” [Sabri] said.
Palestinians in several towns said they had worked with the activists and asked Sabri to issue the appeal.
Actually, I’m not sure if any of the four CPT men abducted in Iraq have actually worked in Palestine, or not. (Their names, ages, and nationalities are listed here.) But CPT has maintained a well-respected presence in Hebron, and worked in other Palestinian towns, for several years now.
If you have the stomach to read something quite distasteful (and almost literally nauseating) about the abductions, you could read these comments by the sadly deluded rightwing talkshow host, and one-time pill addict, Rush Limbaugh…
Rush Limbaugh is distasteful. But mildly so. His remarks are not well thought out nor are they helpful. He probably got some chuckles out of his regular listeners. His “Hoax” idea is wild speculation and doesn’t make sense. All in all, small sins.
Big Sins
The problem I have, is not only have the idiots in the “Swords” kidnapped people but that the AMS and the Palestinians apparently have some influence over some of the insurgents and have up to now not cared to use it. Beheading is just okay with the AMS and the Palestinian Mufti as long as it’s Nicholas Berg.
I am not impressed with the moral standing of the Palestinian Mufti nor the AMS. But I hope they are succesful in getting the hostages out.
Salah: I agree with you in that I (myself) am better off staying in the USA and working on my government. But someone sent me this tonight from one of the CPTers who was kidnapped:
Taking risks for peace
“Personally it has always worried me that I am a ‘cheap’ peacemaker…. talking, writing, demonstrating about peace is in no way taking risks like young servicemen in Iraq. I look for excuses why I should not become involved.”
– Norman Kember, writing six months before he joined a Christian Peacemaker Teams delegation to Iraq. Kember, another CPT delegate, and two team members have been missing since they were abducted in a Baghdad suburb Saturday. Source: The Independent.
WarrenW:
I have trouble with anyone kidnapping another person and then harming them in any way, shape or form. I have trouble with anyone who does not use their influence to stop this kind of violence.
It is particularly troubling to me when it is a formal government entity that is doing it, and it is extremely distressing to me when that government is the USA, since I am paying for it, and I feel responsible for it.
And the US government is doing kidnapping around the world, and then putting people in secret prisons and torturing them. Our military is doing homosexual S & M videos, and is raping and assulting and torturing in Iraq and other places.
And I certainly don’t agree with Rumsfeld who claims that the terrorists are much worse then we are because they behead people while we only drop bombs on their heads. That is a double standard that is disgusting.
I think it is important to keep in mind that Iraq did not harm or threaten the USA, ever. We have no right to be doing what we are doing to them.
I cannot control those terrorists on the other side of the world, but I sure would like to get some control over what my tax dollars are doing.
I am sure the CPTers are scared to death, but I am also sure that they knew that their attempts to stop violence and war could result in violence coming to them.
Also, Sy Hersch said that the CPTers in Iraq were the first to tell him about torture in Abu Ghraib and first to tell him about the dogs being used. And they pretty much documented that the majority of the men in Abu Ghraib were innocent of any crime.
And, since the CPTers goal is to stop war (not to stop all crime) it stands to reason that they would use this opportunity to condemn the war. I don’t think that means that they think the kidnappers are okay kind of people, although they might want to wait until they are free until they say what they really think. I know I would.
From Yahoo News Photos:
Palestinians hold photos of Tom Fox, one of the four members of the aid group, Christian Peacemaker Teams, who were kidnapped in Iraq, during a protest outside a mosque in the West Bank city of Hebron, Wednesday Nov 30, 2005. Palestinians led by their top Muslim cleric appealed to Iraqi insurgents Wednesday to release four Western peace activists, saying three of them had spent time in the West Bank aiding the Palestinians. The banner on the right reads in Arabic: ‘ we demands the release of the CPT members ‘ and the banner on the center reads: ‘ CPT are friends of Palastine and the Arabs, release them ‘. (AP Photo/Nasser Shiyoukhi)
From Yahoo News Photos:
Palestinians hold photos of Tom Fox, one of the four members of the aid group, Christian Peacemaker Teams, who were kidnapped in Iraq, during a protest outside a mosque in the West Bank city of Hebron, Wednesday Nov 30, 2005. Palestinians led by their top Muslim cleric appealed to Iraqi insurgents Wednesday to release four Western peace activists, saying three of them had spent time in the West Bank aiding the Palestinians. The banner on the right reads in Arabic: ‘ we demands the release of the CPT members ‘ and the banner on the center reads: ‘ CPT are friends of Palastine and the Arabs, release them ‘. (AP Photo/Nasser Shiyoukhi)
Lots of information here about the hostages work in Hebron:
http://www.palsolidarity.org/main/
I and many Palestinians are praying for their safety.
It seems like the CPT’rs were earnest, and have been doing some good work in Iraq, but I recognize a tendency among some lefty idealists to be self-sacrificing beyond a point I would consider to be mentally stable. That includes romanticizing notions of somehow putting one’s own body on the line in a country and context that is not one’s own.
Who are they really trying to save? Their own consciences? Their own souls?
And I have to ask as well, what would that sort of dedication and self-sacrifice have wrought if spent doing political activist work Stateside?
Susan – NC
Do you have any evidence of any of this? Especially the S&M accusations? I confess I hadn’t heard of this.
I had read the Washington Post story on the secret prisons and haven’t been able to decide if the stories are true. Nor have I been able to discern under which President the policy may have been initiated. The EU is on the case, but the EU was on the case of the Iraqi chemical weapons too, and bobbled the ball as badly as anybody else. We’ll see. The “Anti-War” movement is on the case, but they reported half a million starved-to-death Iraqi children who existed only in Saddam Husseins imagination.
The Right says that the terrorists being held at camp X-ray are getting better food than they ever got before and are holding up very well. The Left says the opposite.
While to a certain extent this is all a psychological projection test, and a measure of our prejudices regarding what we will believe. It is basically a problem of evaluating based on skimpy evidence.
It is entirely fair to ask that light be shed on hidden events, especially when wrong-doing is suspected. It is not fair to try people in the press and slander their names based on rumor.
Sy Hersh is not terribly reliable. And he too often takes credit by reporting thing that others have investigated. But he could be right.
The Bush administration “Legal decision” is wrong that anything that happens outside the US is outside the law and hence not illegal. McCain seems to have it right. The US went through WWI and WWII without systematic use of torture.
I believe there are cases in Iraq when quick and rough interrogation is justified. I am still dumbstruck by the idiotic and useless goings-on at Abu Ghraib. By the way, if you look at the Abu Ghraib photos, you’ll be shocked, but if you look closer, you see there is very little evidence of crime. The evidence of crime is in the testimony.
And it is overwhelmingly clear that the level of crime and torture in Abu Ghraib was much higher and more sustained under Saddam Hussein than after his removal. Not to decide is to decide. If we had not invaded, the more severe tortures at Abu Ghraib would still be going on and we would share in that responsibility.
It may be heartening that the US raided a torture center run by the government we are supporting. Somebody has some standards and they should be supported.
It will not harm the democratic process in Iraq if some Iraqis or some Americans get prosecuted for crimes. Indeed, the process may outlast the administration of George Bush, and I wouldn’t necessarily have minded seeing him go sooner.
In order to create a democracy in Iraq, and to end the systematic use of torture, the process of putting down the insurgency has to be relatively clean, setting a precedent and an example. And, of course, to prevent systematic torture in Iraq, the insurgency must be beaten. Do any of you really doubt that the insurgency, when put in charge of Iraq, would institute a horrible repression?
The criticism of the behavior of the Iraqis and the Americans in Iraq, if principled and accurate, is absolutely necessary for the proper functioning of the war effort. This is one reason why democracy works better than other systems.
WarrenW,
You are trying to minimize all the war crimes and the breaking of humanitarian laws succeeding in Iraq, Guantanamo or other secrete jails with the benediction of Bush and Cheney. This may (partly)work with the US opinion whose media haven’t been doing their investigative work very well. But it doesn’t fool the rest of the world, neither the Europeans, nor the Arabs nor the other countries.
You know, there are still plenty of people deniying that the holocaust took place, or that the nazis killed so many Jews. But history has judged and will also judge your actual president and authorities.
Susan – NC
Do you have any evidence of any of this? Especially the S&M accusations? I confess I hadn’t heard of this.
ABU GHRAIB.
I had read the Washington Post story on the secret prisons and haven’t been able to decide if the stories are true.
I HAVE NO DOUBT. TIME WILL TELL. I RECOMMEND READING THE EUROPEAN PRESS AND DROPPING THE WAPO. WAPO IS PRETTY AWFUL, AND I WOULD THINK THE WMDS NONSENSE SHOULD HAVE ESTABLISHED THAT FACT FOR ALL AMERICANS. SAME FOR 98% OF THE REST OF CORPORATE MEDIA.
The Right says that the terrorists being held at camp X-ray are getting better food than they ever got before and are holding up very well. The Left says the opposite.
AND THE UN AND RED CROSS SAY THE US WILL NOT LET THEM TALK TO THE PRISONERS IN GITMO IN PRIVATE.
While to a certain extent this is all a psychological projection test, and a measure of our prejudices regarding what we will believe. It is basically a problem of evaluating based on skimpy evidence.
WELL, I BELIEVE IN THE NAZI CONCENTRATION CAMPS AND I HAVE NEVER SEEN THEM WITH MY OWN EYES. FURTHERMORE, I WAS NOT ALIVE WHEN IT HAPPENED. AM I PROJECTING?
Sy Hersh is not terribly reliable. And he too often takes credit by reporting thing that others have investigated. But he could be right.
I HAVE NEVER SEEN HERSH NOT BE RELIABLE. GOT ANYTHING TO SUPPORT YOUR POSITION?
I believe there are cases in Iraq when quick and rough interrogation is justified.
AND I SAY SHAME ON YOU.
I am still dumbstruck by the idiotic and useless goings-on at Abu Ghraib. By the way, if you look at the Abu Ghraib photos, you’ll be shocked, but if you look closer, you see there is very little evidence of crime. The evidence of crime is in the testimony.
HORSESHIT. THOSE WERE GAY S & M TORTURE VIDEOS AND PICTURES.
And it is overwhelmingly clear that the level of crime and torture in Abu Ghraib was much higher and more sustained under Saddam Hussein than after his removal.
AND HOW WOULD YOU KNOW? ANY PROOF? THAT IS NOT WHAT THE IRAQI PEOPLE ARE SAYING, BY THE WAY.
Not to decide is to decide. If we had not invaded, the more severe tortures at Abu Ghraib would still be going on and we would share in that responsibility.
SO, WE ARE THEREFORE RESPONSIBLE FOR WASTING OUR TIME IN IRAQ (WITH FEW INNOCENT DEATHS GOING ON IN 2001-2003) WHILE WE IGNORED THE MILLIONS OF INNOCENTS KILLED IN D.R. CONGO IN THOSE SAME YEARS, RIGHT? AND WHAT ABOUT DURFUR? ARE WE RESPONSIBLE THERE TOO? SEEMS LIKE WE SHOULD GO AFTER THE WORST OFFENDERS FIRST, AND THAT MEANS THAT SADDAM WOULD BE ABOUT 15TH OR 16TH ON THE LIST.
It may be heartening that the US raided a torture center run by the government we are supporting. Somebody has some standards and they should be supported.
WHO IN THE HELL WOULD BE HEARTENED BY THE FACT THAT THE US-BACKED IRAQI GOVERNMENT IS RUNNING THOUSANDS OF TORTURE CENTERS (AND DEATH SQUADS) ACROSS IRAQ? I FIND IT SICKENING. BY THE WAY, THAT HAS BEEN REPORTED ON FOR AT LEAST SIX MONTHS BEFORE THE FIRST CENTER WAS FOUND. THERE ARE MORE, LOTS MORE.
In order to create a democracy in Iraq, and to end the systematic use of torture, the process of putting down the insurgency has to be relatively clean, setting a precedent and an example. And, of course, to prevent systematic torture in Iraq, the insurgency must be beaten.
TORTURE IS ALREADY SYSTEMATIC AROUND IRAQ. THE PROCESS OF PUTTING DOWN THE INSURGENCY IS THE START OF A CIVIL WAR, WHICH IS ANYTHING BUT “CLEAN”.
THE INSURGENTS ARE ALREADY IN THE IRAQI POLICE, IRAQI MILITARY, AND ALL THE VARIOUS BRIGADES.
Do any of you really doubt that the insurgency, when put in charge of Iraq, would institute a horrible repression?
SINCE THE INSURGENCY IS MORE THAN ONE SET OF GROUPS WITH VARIOUS GOALS, I REALLY DON’T KNOW, BUT I SUSPECT IT WILL BE HORRIBLY VIOLENT IN IRAQ FOR THE NEXT 10 YEARS. I PREDICT WHOMEVER ENDS UP IN CHARGE IN IRAQ WILL BE HORRIBLE REPRESSIVE. EVEN THE US OFFICIALS THERE ARE DOING REPRESSIVE THINGS LIKE SHUTTING DOWN NEWSPAPERS, DETAINING PEOPLE WITHOUT CHARGES, SHOOTING UP THE CIVILIANS WHO GET TOO CLOSE, BREAKING INTO HOMES AT NIGHT AGAIN AND AGAIN, AND DROPPING BOMBS AND WHITE PHOSPHEROUS ON TOWNS. THEY ARE KILLING LOTS OF CIVILIANS AND NEVER BOTHERING TO COUNT HOW MANY.
GO WATCH OR LISTEN TO DEMOCRACY NOW! AFTER A MONTH OR TWO OF THAT, YOU WILL KNOW A LOT MORE. AND THEN WHEN THINGS LIKE ABU GHRAIB BREAK THROUGH (WELL, SOME OF IT HAS, NOT ALL) THE CORPORATE MEDIA, YOU CAN THINK HOW SMART YOU ARE FOR HAVING KNOWN ABOUT THIS FOR OVER A YEAR IN ADVANCE.
Sorry for all the caps. There is much more that happened at Abu Ghraib, but it has not come out yet.
Susan, I’m wondering where the intense hostility that you and Christiane are displaying here stems from. Living with such deep anger as you show here is very corrosive to both your psyche and your phsysical body… I hope you both feel better soon.
Christiane
I’m not trying to minimize or maximize anything, I’m trying to be accurate, and trying to get others to work at being accurate. I think you are more credulous than I. I think the issues should be checked out. You think the answers are available to you more than to me. (“But it doesn’t fool the rest of the world”). I don’t believe in blindly trusting Bush or the MSM or left-wing web-sites.
Susan -NC
Okay, which of the European press should I read? Of course, I am limited to English. Sometimes the European press is right. They had the story of My Lai for quite a while before Sy Hersh “Discovered” it. They also had a massacre in Jenin that turned out to be imaginary.
If “Time will tell” then the evidence isn’t out yet, and neither you nor I should jump to conclusions.
There is a lot of evidence of the Nazi concentration camps, including piles of bureaucratic documentation and a large number of eyewitness testimonies. You are not projecting. There is nowhere near the same level of evidence for the problems of the US in Iraq.
On Sy Hersh: He copies stuff from others. I remember his reports on Afghanistan were unreliable. Unfortunately, I can’t find the reference. After a reading his stuff a number of times I now take it with a grain of salt. Although he also does good work.
There can be circumstances where very stressful interrogation is justified. I think if that happens then each instance of such interrogation should be made public or if later discovered, assumed to be a criminal act. The knowledge that the interrogation will be made public should provide excellent control on excesses. This is not the situation in Iraq today and I blame Bush. Apparently they are using some crazy sexual techniques as a mind-bending way to search for information in people caught up in sweeps.
At least some of the things that have gone on were clearly not legal and have been prosecuted by the US. There is probably more to come from the prosecutors.
The pictures I’ve seen are too ambiguous. You can’t even prove from the pictures that the people in the compromising pictures are Iraqis or that the events took place in Iraq or in an Iraqi prison. And it is extremely puzzling that in many of the pictures (and I have not seen them all) the face of the American “Interrogator” is visible but the face of the “Victim” is hidden. This is no way to blackmail or humiliate a victim. This tells me something else was (also?) going on and I do not know what. My first impression on seeing the photos was that the “Victims” were Americans in some sort of weird party. They were all uniformly buff and evenly tanned.
The Iraqi people are indeed saying over and over that the tortures under Saddam were thousands of times worse than those after his removal. Just the number of prisoners and the number of deaths proves that. Saddam had rape rooms and chairs with big screws that came up and skewered people. Sy Hersh and Wikipedia agree on that.
If you don’t know about Abu Ghraib under Saddam you don’t know poop about torture in Iraq. This BBC article describes both Saddam crimes and compares them to the crimes of American soldiers there. Don’t just look at the pictures, look at the numbers.
The reason Saddam was more important than the Congo and Darfur is that Saddam had the means to spread his mischief to a large part of the world. Saddams access to a continual river of oil money and his expansionist beliefs meant that he threatened to enlarge his empire by taking over the oil capacities of Kuwait and Iran and then the rest and using it all to build a military empire. The threat was not immediate but was as certain as things get in world politics. The sanctions were crumbling and Saddam uncontestably wanted to rebuild his WMD capability and then use it to enlarge his empire. Dormant programs would have eventually become reality.
“There is much more that happened at Abu Ghraib, but it has not come out yet.” Which means you have secret sources of information not available to the rest of us?
It is completely necessary to investigate the goings-on in the new government in Iraq. But beware of being played for a fool by tyrants and neo-Stalinists.
The New Yorker and other MSM publications have covered Abu Ghraib far better than you give them credit for. If you have better information then show us.
WarrenW, if the MSM is good enough for you then why are you here, except to insult people by calling them names like “fool” or “neo-Stalinist”?
Why do you intrude on the grief of the religous believers when their colleagues are kidnapped and in danger of death, to parade your inhuman insensitivity?
You and vadim are a disgrace.
“Apparently they are using some crazy sexual techniques as a mind-bending way to search for information in people caught up in sweeps.”
like raping children in front of their parents?? That’s on video the Pentagon does not want released. It was seen by our US Senators (and they commented publicly on this.)
“They were all …… evenly tanned.”
Nope, they are not tanned. They are Arab.
“The Iraqi people are indeed saying over and over that the tortures under Saddam were thousands of times worse than those after his removal.”
Not Allawi.
“Which means you have secret sources of information not available to the rest of us?”
Same sources as most of the rest of the world outside the USA…. only a secret to Americans, I guess.
“If you have better information then show us.”
http://www.democracynow.org
“The reason Saddam was more important than the Congo and Darfur is that Saddam had the means to spread his mischief to a large part of the world.”
more nonsense…. he did not have the means, and it is not clear that he (still) had the intent, just because he did in the past.
I’m still waiting for that “green mushroom cloud over Baghdad” and all the silly nonsense Rumsfeld and Cheney predicted.
Back on topic: I think the CPTers will be released unharmed.
Dominic
I never claimed the MSM was “Good enough”. I am here to enter into dialog with the “Anti-war” movement, or a part of it. I don’t find the “Anti-war” movement to be 100% reliable but occasionally they will grab onto something and be right. Actually, that’s pretty much my opinion of the MSM except the MSM have more cameras and other resources to show us stuff.
I do not believe I have intruded on anybody’s religious grief. To my knowledge, the CPT hostages in Iraq have not been murdered. So currently there should be anxiety, not grief.
I am sure you are flying off the handle. Dominic, for a Leninist, you sure do have a lot of bourgois sentimentality! Or are you not a Leninist?
Warren (and others),
While I disagree with virtually everything you say — sometimes to the point of visceral anger — I am glad that you post here. It’s important that both sides know what the other is thinking, and the terms in which they are conceptualizing these issues. I also respect your expressed desire to have a dialog with people you don’t agree with.
These are life and death issues, and I know there are times when I feel personally threatened by some of the attitudes expressed, which makes it very difficult to write a calm comment that does not include an ad hominem attack — direct or veiled.
So when someone (on either side) finally can’t keep cool in the face of opinions that feel like they violate norms of humanity and decency, we should cut that person a little slack, and try to de-escalate. Which, in your last comment, I think you mostly did.
“You and vadim are a disgrace.”
Dominic, you need to work out the deep hostility and anger that infects your posts. I hope you get some help for whatever is troubling you and that everything works out well. Living with rage such as you have displayed here is bad for your physical and mental well being.
Susan – NC
With the sanctions gone, and Saddam back in full control of Iraq, there is no doubt he would have resumed his military program of conquest. And his psychopathic sons would have carried it on after him.
Saddam had a life-long fascination with WMD’s of all types and no compunction about using them. And you can do a lot of damage with nerve gases if you know how, nukes aren’t strictly necessary.
And once Saddam had added the riches of Kuwait or Iran to his horde, he could have built a truly fiercesome military machine and blackmailed all of Europe by witholding oil or launching weapons.
“With the sanctions gone, and Saddam back in full control of Iraq, there is no doubt he would have resumed his military program of conquest. And his psychopathic sons would have carried it on after him.”
You seem very sure of how the world will unfold. The reason many people don’t take you seriously and/or find you frustrating is that you don’t seem to have a grasp on the past.
For example, you seem to consider the abuse at Abu Ghraib somehow still disputable, despite the fact that American soldiers have been convicted because of the abuse:
“You can’t even prove from the pictures that the people in the compromising pictures are Iraqis or that the events took place in Iraq or in an Iraqi prison.”
Another example:
“[Saddam] threatened to enlarge his empire by taking over the oil capacities of Kuwait and Iran and then the rest and using it all to build a military empire.”
During the 80s Iraq was not under sanctions, and was pumping way more oil. In fact, Iraq had the material support of the US, many European countries, and even the Soviet Union. Despite all that Iraq could not defeat Iran. In fact, Iraq nearly lost the war. And let’s not forget Iraq’s prolific use of poison gas during the war. So are you saying that the Iraq of 2003, under punishing sanctions, a deteriorating oil infrastructure, without any control of even its North was somehow a threat to Kuwait and Iran? You demonstrate no understanding of what history can teach. I believe that makes you vulnerable to whatever propaganda is projected your way. What is most galling, is you seem to have become a tool of the propaganda sources by parrotting their lines here. And that’s a shame, because you clearly have an interest in the world about you.
You seem very confused with regards to Hersh: “Sy Hersh is not terribly reliable.” “I remember his reports on Afghanistan were unreliable. Unfortunately, I can’t find the reference.”. So you seem to have heard or read that Hersh is not worth reading, but you also state “Although he also does good work.”. Since you seem to like predictions, here’s mine: You’ve never read Hersh. In fact, you’ve only heard/read about him from main stream propaganda sources seeking to discredit Hersh. My advice? Read him. Right to the end.
http://www.weeklystandard.com/Content/Public/Articles/000/000/005/523vuxrq.asp?pg=1
When he’s speaking, Hersh tells Suellentrop, “Sometimes I change events, dates, and places in a certain way to protect people.” Which shouldn’t matter, he goes on, since “I’m just talking now, I’m not writing.” Put another way: “I can’t fudge what I write. But I can certainly fudge what I say.”
http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0RMQ/is_33_10/ai_n14707576
Given the anti-Iraq war sentiment among many Army officers, we would have heard much more detailed commentary about Patai’s influence were it actually as great as Hersh’s anonymous informants suggest. (In particular, the assertion that the book was “the bible of the neocons on Arab behavior,” and thus had a wide prewar impact, is odd, given how few neoconservatives have read it–I did an informal survey–and how seldom neoconservatives have Freudian conversations with military officers.)
“there is no doubt he would have resumed his military program of conquest. And his psychopathic sons would have carried it on after him.”
Pure baseless speculation of the most egregiously self-serving kind.
“Saddam had a life-long fascination with WMD’s of all types and no compunction about using them.”
More nonsense that has no basis in reality. There is no evidence at all for this supposed “life-long fascination with WMD’s of all types”. And historical fact proves that Saddam DID in fact have compunctions about using the weapons he did have.
Btw the Gerecht piece (beyond the Patai quibble) isnt especially critical of Hersh — it’s worth reading anyway even if penned by a warmongering neocon demon like Gerecht.
Personally I think Hersh’s reporting is generally interesting, despite his Judy-Miller-esque overreliance on unnamed sources. I’d like to know how much importance to assign his reports on plans to invade Iran, eg. Remember how seriously was taken this wildly improbable scenario following Hersh’s related testimony of various unnamed planners.
Pure baseless speculation of the most egregiously self-serving kind.
I’m not sure what WarrenW personally stands to gain with his theories or for that matter how post facto psychoanalysis of Saddam Hussein advances the dialogue, bridges understanding etc.
Ignore the trolls
“Personally it has always worried me that I am a ‘cheap’ peacemaker…. talking, writing, demonstrating about peace is in no way taking risks like young servicemen in Iraq. I look for excuses why I should not become involved.”
– Norman Kember
Taking Risks for Peace
My hat’s off to anyone who puts themself on the line for Peace.
But let me speak up for the cheap seats.
Part of our Suit for Peace is to prevent people from having to endure the brutality of War. Aside from the physical danger, people should never have to face the emotional trauma of War.
Voluntarily going into that theatre to do peace work is going above and beyond the call and requires a very rare and very strong person.
When an unjust war is being conducted by our government, it is primarily up to US to end hostilities and heal what we’ve wounded. Most of that work is here at home. Our hearts go out, our calls go out for peace for all, for release of all captives.
“I’m not sure what WarrenW personally stands to gain with his theories”
Are you playing games, Vadim, or do you honestly not see how Warren is serving his agenda by making the kind of baseless, speculative claim I was responding to.
“or do you honestly not see how Warren is serving his agenda by making the kind of baseless, speculative claim I was responding to”
Ad hominems are counterproductive and uninformative. I don’t know or care what WarrenW’s agenda is [no offense, Warren]. Nor do I expect you to care what my agenda might be. No offense, but I don’t much care what yours is.
The quality of information presented (yours and WarrenW’s) is proportionate to the amount of supporting evidence offered for or against. Agendas are irrelevant to any useful conclusion. Addressing his agenda or yours or mine is ad hominem and fallacious. Evidence from either one of you would be a good deal more informative and convincing.
“Pure baseless speculation of the most egregiously self-serving kind[!!]”
isn’t evidence — it’s a flat contradiction, an argument from denial.
I fully agree with you that in the absence of evidence, WarrenW’s claim is speculative. But clearly so is yours (“historical fact proves that Saddam DID in fact have compunctions about using the weapons he did have.”) But then I’m not sure what question is answered by “how likely was HUssein to use chemical weapons?” Is it a worthwhile question? Is it likely to be resolved with the presentation of factual evidence? Is it worth this unconstructive ad-hominem-laden exchange ?? Probably not is my guess.
“WarrenW’s claim is speculative. But clearly so is yours (“historical fact proves that Saddam DID in fact have compunctions about using the weapons he did have.”)”
Ummmmmm – no, actually. WarrenW tried to support his argument with a wild and baseless speculation about what would have happened in some imaginary future. My remark was based on the known facts of Saddam’s past behaviour.
“My remark was based on the known facts of Saddam’s past behaviour.”
“Um” unless you are yourself Saddam Hussein your induction of Saddam Hussein’s mindset re: the use of chemical weapons from prior behavio[u]r are as speculative as WarrenW’s. At this point I don’t expect you to understand much less acknowledge this fact. Oh well!
By the way Shirin, you have a remarkable gift for flat contradiction, flat denial and other clumsy and arrogant modes of pseudo-argumentation. I don’t think I’ve seen you once offer any references in support of any of your sweeping denials or assertions. Everything boils down to Shirin’s say-so. And yet for all Shirin’s sweeping claims regarding Israel I suspect she has never set foot in that country and speaks not a word of Hebrew. Am I right?
ps lest Helena engage in any more freudian projection and accuse me of ‘hostility’ I mean this to be constructive criticism. I’m sure Shirin’s a lovely person.
“Saddam had a life-long fascination with WMD’s of all types and no compunction about using them.”
I think we could make the same claim about the US military. They did use white phospherous, they admitted it. And goodness knows, we have more nukes than anybody.
“And once Saddam had added the riches of Kuwait or Iran to his horde, he could have built a truly fiercesome”
That’s pretty funny to think that Saddam could have re-fought the two wars he started and this time around, WIN!!!!
hahahahahaha
There’s a petition for the CPTers at http://www.petitionspot.com/petitions/freethecpt .