I can just imagine the elation for the 1.3 million Palestinians in Gaza that the vast majority of their terrain has now been evacuated by the Israeli military. Fabulous! Now a Gazan person can do such radical things as travel the length of the Strip without having to pass through any IOF checkpoints or stroll on that large portion of the beach from which previously they all were banned.
From this description of today’s developments by AP’s Ravi Nessman and Mariam Fam, it seems as if Gazans have even be able to cross freely into the Strip from the Egyptian side of the border, which is interesting and significant.
They write:
- No people crossed through the main Rafah border crossing point, which Israel has closed indefinitely. Instead, people went around it.
Excellent. Especially since most of the people living on the Egyptian side of the border are very closely related indeed to the people on the Palestinian side.
(Until Egypt regained control over all its national terrain in Sinai, in 1982, the Israelis who were in military occupation of both Sinai and Gaza paid little heed to the fact that there was an international border there. Israel’s withdrawal from Sinai that year left the Palestinians on the Egypt side of the border stranded outside the homeland to which they have now, finally, been able to return.)
Nessman and Fam wrote,
- Egyptian security forces stood by and let the crossings take place, describing it as a “humanitarian” gesture to let people separated for years reunite. Security officials also suggested the crossings would be short-lived as Egypt deploys 750 heavily armed troops to secure its border with Gaza.
We’ll see about that. Why should Egypt cave to Israel’s demands to be able to continue to control crossings in and out of Gaza– especially since there is a solid plan to meet Israel’s legitimate security concerns (as opposed to their frequently over-the-top security “demands”) through the positioning of EU monitors at the Rafah crossing point?
The Palestinians have now been able to return to the 30% of Gaza that had previously been expropriated for the settlements and for the IOF’s previously huge military presence. Hallelujah!
It is true that their return has been marred by the torching of some of the former synagogue structures there.
Everyone had warned the Israeli government that this was likely to happen if it did not take steps itself to demolish those structures. I certainly acknowledge that those structures probably had deep meaning and significance for the Israeli families who worshiped in them, and I am sure their present destruction is painful for those families.
On the other hand, consider this:
- (1) These structures had previously been deconsecrated— primarily by the removal of the Torah scrolls from them. (Deconsecration of sacred spaces takes place all the time, in all the religions I know of, as populations move and new needs are pursued.)
(2) Under international law, the construction of these synagogues by the Israelis had all along been just as illegal as the construction of the civilian communities to which they were attached.
(3) Finally, the Israeli government had the chance to demolish them itself, but yesterday voted not to do so– in the almost certain knowledge that their demolition would be undertaken by the Palestinians in, quite probably, a far less “respecful” way.
But these were no longer sacred structures. They were just buildings. The Torah scrolls that they once housed have been removed and are being appropriately housed and cared for inside Israel.
As I wrote here last week, the visionary Israeli peacenik Gershon Baskin had been proposing that the synagogue buildings be handed over to the PA for them to use as they desired. I guess that proved impossible in the end because the running disagreements between the PA and the Sharon government over the terms of the withdrawal meant that there was no formal “handing-over” ceremony at all.
In general, the handover has been much less orderly than it would have been if there had been even a modicum of goodwill on the Israeli side. But Sharon has always said this withdrawal would be fundamentally “unilateral”– “my way or the highway”– and now he’s merely continuing with that approach.
What that means for the chance that Abu Mazen can retain the political leadership of the Palestinian movement into the future is something we’ll have to watch carefully in the weeks ahead…
But I don’t want to dwell on the problems and downsides of what’s happening. I haven’t been to Gaza since 2002. But I can just imagine how wonderful it feels for the Palestinians who’ve been cooped up in their little separated ghettoes up and down the Strip for so long now, subjected to continual lockdowns, military attacks, home demolitions, and denials of even their most basic rights to freedom of movement and of assembly– to finally, finally, regain the freedom of the Strip!
And yes, I write that even knowing that there are still many Israeli plans out there to keep the Strip itself isolated and tightly controlled– to keep it as merely the “bigger prison” that the Palestinians fear.
But how intriguing that– even if only for a short period– the Egyptians and Palestinians are finding a way to punch through that Israeli-planned quarantine of Gaza… It will certainly be interesting to see the “access into Gaza” issue become an increasingly big issue inside Egyptian politics over the months ahead.
The sad part is that this liberation is not considered news in the US media. No media outlet wants to even portray the jubilent palestinians after all the misery and tragedy they have experienced. The strategy all along is to portray palestinians as non-human. The media will only show Israeli victims and Israeli human stories. The palestenian human stories are still ignored. This makes the US public more sympathetic to the Israleis and at the same time ignorant of (and sometimes even hostile to) the plight of the palestenians.
Helena — you are a never-ending fount of prejudice and hate. You manage to summarize the Gaza situation without once mentioning the Intifada, the suicide bombings or other attacks that the Arabs in general have made upon the Israelis. It is these attacks that are the only reason for the Israeli occupation of Gaza in the first place. And Helena, you know this.
The problem for the future is smuggling and importing of weapons into Gaza and future attacks on Israelis. This is the reason for the restrictions and the checkpoints. Helena, you deliberately excluded any reference to them to make it seem that the Israelis must just be big bad meanies. This is deliberate willful knowing hate speech.
“Everyone had warned the Israeli government that this was likely to happen if it did not take steps itself to demolish those structures.”
This was a personality test, so to speak, for the Palestinians. “Everybody knew” that they were hateful and violence-prone, incapable of respecting other societies or other people. They had a chance to disprove it and they failed. Likewise, “Everybody knew” the Palestinians were not capable of respecting Jewish gravesites, but they were not given the chance to disprove that. No need. This is not idle chatter. It portends the future of Gaza-Israeli relations: Will there be another war? It looks like the answer is probably yes.
Helena, you manage to conclude that there was not a “a modicum of goodwill” on the Israeli side. The Israelis gave the land to the Palestinians for nothing! Yet according to you there is not “A modicum” of goodwill there.
How does a Quaker get to support such bloodthirsty people? A pacifist should reject suicide and murder both. Since 1948 the Arabs in Palestine have been martyring themselves at a slow but steady rate. They have been martyring their entire society. Suicide bombing is the symbol of their culture. A Quaker shouldn’t get within a thousand miles of these people, yet Helena cozies up to them.
Helena has made the choice of holding the Palestinians to a lower moral standard. Is this racism? Third-worldism? Inquiring minds want to know.
WarrenW
You are getting boring with your unbalanced arguments. Out of many blogs, Helena has probably one of the most positive one, always looking for the good side of things and what could be done to get a fairer world. I have yet to see a hate word in her blog.
By contrast, you are just pouring on silly arguments. For instance, how could the Israeli give Gaza to the Palestinians for nothing, when to start with, it was not theirs ? In reality what did they do ? they restituted stolen land and this restitution was made only because it was getting too costly for Israel to maintain these colonies. Further that restitution was a purely unilateral move, made outside of all negotiations and bargaining, because Sharon didn’t want to start negotiating. For all these reasons, how can Israeli complain that they got nothing in exchange ?
Christiane-
From whom did they ‘steal’ these lands? From the Egyptians? The Eqyptians abrogated their rights to the land they stole from Israel in 1948, and subsequently retreated from when Israel liberated them in 1967, when they signed the peace treaty with Israel.
WarrenW-
Of course Israel got plenty! You couldn’t be more wrong. Israel got volumes of empty promises, speeches full of hate messages and vitriol, packs and packs of lies… Israel is practically drowning in it!
Helena-
Egypt will do what Israel demands if it wants to continue receiving the $1.3B foreign aid package it gets from the United States each year. See, contrary to popular opinion, Israel is still the only democracy in the Middle East (80% to Mubarak? What a crock..)
And if Egypt fail to keep the terrorists and weapons out? Well, Israel beat them in ’48,’56,’67 and ’73, so I guess ’05 or ’06 wouldn’t be too difficult to manange.
Look at the US comments to Syria just yesterday. Israel has but to echo these sentiments to Egypt and they’ll fall in line.
BTW, Egypt didn’t “regain control;” that statement is disingenuous. It was returned to them after they promised NEVER EVER to attack Israel again, like a child and its toy. They lost as a result of the aggressive posturing of Nasser and it and it wasn’t until they came begging for peace (remember that Sadat came to the Kenesset).
Closely related, you say? You couldn’t be more right, considering that most of the Arabs in Israel are from Egypt and Transjordan anyway. Even Arafat was an Egyptian and we all know that Jordan is a Hashemite aparteid state.
Israel the only democracy !!
Israel discriminates against its arab population.
Israel even discriminates against its black and other less influential jewish population.
Israel is an aparteid state that could onlu survive because of US taxpayer subsidies. Everytime Israel does something it asks the US goverment for more and more aid. Israel is a dependent country that will fail if it were not for the continual shots in the arm paid for unwilling by US tax payers. Look at the Gaza pullout, each family got a generous payback for $140,000 to $400.000 paid for by the US. However, those in New Orleans are only promissed $2,000.
When the US cover for Israel stops, we will all see Israel as it is: a racist failed state and all the new immigrats will start fleeing to other countries. Israel declares itself as a state for jews only, how can that be called a democracy. That is clear discrimination, as if the US would declare itself a state for christians only.
As for Hosni Mubarek, he is a very good freind of Israel. That is precisely why he is kept in power by the US and other Western goverments. Same applies to other arab countries and even other countries such as Pakistan. Musharref is a dictator in power because he play to the tunes of the US goverment, which in turn plays to the tune of Israel. Hence, the Pakistan-Israel realionship.
Leaving the Synaguoges standing was a trap that the palestenians could not win either way. The Israelis knew all along, but they wanted to use this excuse to condemn the Palestenians for being barbarous.
Actually this kind of house-of-worship demolition happens all the time. In countries such as Britain when churches are no longer needed because there are no more worshippers visting it, the church is demolished as sometimes sold to be used for other purposes such as mosques. This kind of action does not bring any condemnation because that is the reasonable thing to do when the church is void of visitors. The same thing in this case, the synaguogues will not be used as places of worship since there are no jews in Gaza, actually the Isralis have emptied it already of any relegious material.
This is another example of Israeli systemtic propaganda used by Zionism to discredit, dehumanize palestinians as blood-thirsty and barberic. If one looks to Israeli unannounced demolitions of Palestinian homes in the west bank and Gaza, along with the total destruction of Palestinian villages within 48 borders which included hundreds of mosques, then one would have a prespective of the real scale of montrosity, barbarism and hate.
Ahmed,
Something you should consider. If it was, as you say, a trap (which I don’t believe it was), the PA and the Palestinian people had the choice not to fall into that trap.
You complained earlier about lack of media coverage. It’s good for your side that there wasn’t, because what happened was not pretty. There was pandemoneum, and the attack on the synagogues looked, quite frankly, barbaric (and many of those doing the destruction were, apparently, PA security forces).
The areas could have been sealed off (as they were, finally, today), and the buildings bulldozed in a manner more appropriate for the logical building destruction you describe. Further, as the Chief Rabbi of Israel today did in reference to mosques, the religious leadership in Gaza could have warned against destruction of religious sites.
That’s not what happened, and so really the only ones that you can blame for falling into a “trap” that you fully perceived beforehand is…yourselves.
Quiz yourself on Israeli Democracy
JES,
I find it interesting that you concentrate on the destruction of deconsecrated synagogues. If they have been deconsecrated, and, indeed, are now the property of Palestinians, what business is it of yours to complain about what happens to these buildings? One would hope a sensitive soul like yourself would become similarly offended by the ongoing destruction without compensation of Palestinian olive groves on the West Bank, since unlike religious buildings, people’s livelihoods depend on olive groves.
‘would become similarly offended by the ongoing destruction without compensation of Palestinian olive groves’
(irony alert) Yes Shannon, but they (olive groves)
are torn down ‘civilized’ way-buldozed, as opposite to ‘barbaric’ way (burning and tearing down with bare hands of former synagogues’ structures)
JES,
What happened was not pretty because Israel was forced to leave Gaza. It hurts, from your perspective, to see palestenians finally regain what is rightfully theirs. I do not believe anything palestinans do will be pretty.
The synagogues were on stolen land, therefore they should not have been built. This is obvious.
Otherwise, one can steel land and build worship strucutres and the victims cannot reclaim their land.
What would happen if the synagogues were left. Israel would want to install jews to take care of those synagogues. Also Israel would require a safety zone for these synagogues. Then Israel would want a safety zone for the safety zone and so on. Until the synagogues take over Gaza.
Andrew, you write:
…are torn down ‘civilized’ way-buldozed, as opposite to ‘barbaric’ way (burning and tearing down with bare hands of former synagogues’ structures)
So what matters to you is the manner in which an action is taken no matter what the outcome is.
So if one can murder in a civilized way that would be OK. But if one murders in an uncivilized way then it is wrong.
What kind of logic is that?
So you can fix this problem by providing palestinians with ‘civilizing’ boldozers, weapons such as guided missiles and helicopters and jets.
But of course, palestinians will never have access to such means. Therefore Israel is always civilized thanks to US provided, taxpayer paid weapons used to rid the world of uncivilized palestinians.
Please listen to yourself, I do not think you make sense.
Shannon,
You tend to read, and project, what you want. The question on topic here is the destruction of the synagogues; not the uprooting of olive trees (which I did not support here).
Salah,
It’s interesting that you quote statistics for three decades ago. Why don’t you look at the situation today. “Orientals” make up about 50% of both the Knesset and the government (including the Foreign Minister and Miniser of Defense). The President of Israel was born in Iran, and the Chief of Staff is also “Oriental”, as are many leading judges, lawyers, physicians and business people. (BTW, there is no stipulation in law that the President or Prime Minister must be of a particular background or religion as there is in, for example Lebanon, or as there was in Ba’athist Iraq.)
I won’t even comment on your libelous remarks on the four points of “Israel Democracy”, except to say that if you read the PLO Charter and Hamas Covenant, you could probably substitute “Palestine” for “Israel” and have a much more accurate set of statements.
I think you should quiz yourself on why nobody here calls you on your propagandizing.
Ahmed,
You complained about a “trap”, which you claim to have seen. No one forced the Palestinian mobs (including members of the security forces) to behave in the way they did and fall into that trap. They did it of their own free will, and they are responsible.
No, Ahmed, it wasn’t pretty because it was barbaric and it pointed up the anarchy and lack of dicipline and self control that prevails in Palestinian society today. The fact that the behavior was so ugly has nothing to do with Israel.
Finally, you and Helena (and I’m sure Shannon and Andrew as well) claim that the only reason that there was such ugly mob behavior was because Israel did not carry out an orderly hand-over to the PA.
Well, I think an interesting point is what happened yesterday, after the synagogues had already been destroyed (ultimately by PA bulldozers by the way). The one thing that had been agreed about what was to be left on the ground was that the modern hot houses at some of the settlements would be left, with all their equipment, to provide employment for Palestinians. This deal was brokered by, among others, Shimon Peres, and money was donated by a range of people, including Wolfenson himself (who is I believe representing the EU) to pay for the left structures and equipment.
The upshot is that, after finishing with everything else, the mobs began looting those hot houses yesterday. The PA security forces stood by and did noting. Ahmed Qurei publicly chided the looters and pleaded with them not to destroy what was intended for their own future, but that apparently had no effect.
I suppose the Ahmed (the one here, not Abu ‘Ala) will be complaining six months from now how Israel is responsible because the Palestinians don’t have any work.
Ahmed wrote: ‘What kind of logic is that?’
Ahmed, please read my post again – you see that ‘irony alert’ mark at the begining ? Lighten up, it was my irony, of course.
Andrew,
First rule of comedy: If you have to explain it, it ain’t funny.
Andrew, I get it, I messed up.
JES,
There people who think Israel is right when it occupied the territories. Israel is alos right when it vaccated the territories. The bottom line is that Israel is always right.
Palestinans have survived an onslaught on them from a colonial regime supported by two successive superpowers. They will survive again.
Israel will as usual undermine palestinians to show them as incompetent, but they will fail again. The palestinians showed alot of creativity and patience and sacrifice to continue the struggle. This despite fighting the most well equipped army supported by the only super-power with all borders closed and the world neglecting their plight.
The tide is turning, Lebanon in 2000, Gaza in 2005. More to come.
Andrew, thanks for having posted the ‘irony alert’ there.
JES, over the years we’ve had plenty of problems with use of irony here in the comments, so I’ve suggested that people post an ‘irony alert’ when they’re about to use it (or have just done so.)
Remember that for many of the people who read and participate in these discussions, English may be their third, fourth, or fifth language. If you or I were painstakingly reading through something in a 3rd, 4th, or 5th language we would probably tend to try to work out the sentences in a very literal way and might not recognize irony.
Posting an ‘irony alert’ need not spoil the effect for people who already recognize that what’s written is intended ironically– but it makes the reading, understanding, and participation incomparably easier for non-native language readers.
If Israel is, as you said, a state for Jews only, then why haven’t they razed the two mosques in the Old City? Or the Church of the Nativity? Or the church on the Mount of Beatitudes, or the churches in Natzeret-Illit (Nazareth) or the mosques in Jaffa or the monastary in Talpiot or the Greek Orthodox church in Jerusalem? Why would it suffer the burning and looting (what a suprise!) of the Tomb of Joseph, and have to build a bomb shelter around the Tomb of Rachel, or allow non-Jewish worship at Maarat HaMachpelah? Israel’s continued and long-suffering tolerance for all forms of religious practice is above reproach.
What is being described as deconsecration is a farce. There is no way to ‘deconsecrate’ a synagogue once it is sanctified. Besides, if they were deconsecrated, why the need for the burning and looting? What did that show? The synagogues were desecrated, plain and simple.
Israel is a Jewish State, a singular place on the entire planet where Judaism is the primary religion of the country.
JES wrote:”Finally, you and Helena (and I’m sure Shannon and Andrew as well) claim that that the only reason that there was such ugly mob behavior ..”
I allowed myself just a little bit of irony (responding to Shannon post) and sudenly: Kaboom, I’m on JES hit-list (just kidding)! JES, I didn’t claim anything like that, so please take my name off that picture.
Thank you.
Helena,
I like reading your blog, all different opinions.
Marc, I have never claimed that Israel is “a state for Jews only”, as you write. Why would I? One million of its citizens are Palestinians. Many Jewish israelis claim that their state should be “the state of the Jewish people”, but even that claim is rarely expressed in exclusivist terms.
Of course synagogues are deconsecrated, in many different places around the world.
Why do you make things up?
This blog is part of the reality-based community. If you want to spout your fantasies someplace, please rent your own space on the WWW.
(Also, many of the religious sites you mention aren’t in israel at all, but in the occupied territories. Different ball-game.)
Posted by: Ahmed at 13.09.2005 13:56
I wasn’t referring to you, I was referring to what he wrote. I’ll cite my references more carefully.
I said nothing about exclusivity. I made my point quite to the contrary. Israel is tolerant, respectful, and inclusive of the many cultures, beliefs it is home to. And exactly what is your point about where the houses of worship are? My point was that Israel’s tolerance allows these structures to remain, protected and free to all who choose to worship. The single exception was Joseph’s Tomb which was ransacked and torched by a mom of Arabs, after Schem was remitted to Arab control. That is the tolerance we expect from Muslims.
Please refer me to a single instance where a synagogue was “deconsecrated” without the use of torches and pitchforks as long as you’re making that claim. I’ll tell you what, let me start with Poland. Of all places where one would think they would be happy to rid themselves of synagogues that stand in silent testimony to the horrors that swept through Poland last century, Poland has the decency to leave these structures standing.
As long as you mention it, no, one million Israelis are of Arabic descent. The people to whom you refer with the invented notion of “Palestinian” are not citizens of Israel. They have never taken the opportunity to avail themselves of any citizenship, nor have they really been allowed to by their own leaders. After all, how would it look if their “poor oppressed” people went and became law-abiding, tax-paying, Army serving Israeli citizens?
I’ll let you in on a little secret: That’s the way the Arabs could have really defeated Israel; vote them out of existence. The notion of 20% of the population coming from Arabic descent scares Israel more than Johnny Jihad ever will. The two-state solution, as nauseating as it may be, is one of the key ways Israel is protecting its identity for the next 100 years.
typo. mom=mob
Marc at 10:35: If Israel is, as you said, a state for Jews only…
Hele(na) at 12:58: Marc, I have never claimed that Israel is “a state for Jews only”, as you write. Why would I? One million of its citizens are Palestinians…
Marc at 14:52: I said nothing about exclusivity…
Marc at 14:52: no one million Israelis are of Arabic descent. The people to whom you refer with the invented notion of “Palestinian” are not citizens of Israel…
Helena right now: I believe all people should be accorded the simple human courtesy of being able to claim the identity they want to claim. The last poll I checked, the vast majority of the million Palestinian Arab citizens of Israel preferred to self-identify as either “Palestinian Israelis” or “Israeli Palestinians”. That is their right.
Marc, your claim that they are somehow not Palestinians is bizarre and disrespectful in the extreme. Perhaps you didn’t in fact realize that these Palestinian Israelis are in fact the siblings and first cousins of those of their countrymen who have been forced to live as refugees for the past 57 years.
By what right do you get the opportunity to definitively name these people’s identity? Does that give them the right to definitively name yours? Or are you some kind of an uber-man who claims the right to name everyone else while denying them even the sumple right to name themselves?
(Of course, the claim by a few extreme Zionists that “there is no such thing as a Palestinian people” and that the people who call themselves Palestinians are in fact merely undifferentiated “Arabs” is exactly parallel to claims the apartheid regime used to make about the undifferentiated “Bantus”. Sad, sad, sad.)
the invented notion of “Palestinian”
I’m calling you on this one, Marc. All nationalities are “invented notions” if you go back far enough – there weren’t any Palestinians a century ago, but there weren’t any Israelis either. The Palestinians have been forged in a hard school and they have the cultural continuity, identity and shared struggle of a nation. Denying the peoplehood of the Palestinians is exactly as meretricious as denying the peoplehood of Jews.
Well then, let’s take a look at my copy of the New York Times Atlas of the World… hmm.. nope.. nope.. nope.. Gee guys, I can’t seem to find any mention of a country called Palestine. If we’re assuming that an Egyptian comes from Egypt, a Norwegian comes from Norway, a Russian comes from Russia, an Australian comes from Australia, then a Palestinian must come from Palestine. But, but, there is no Palestine! It ceased to be a British occupied territory in 1948.
There are no Mesopotamians, no Assyrians, no Romans (ancient Rome, not citizens of the Italian city), no Akkadians, no Constantanoplians, because these places no longer exist.
As for naming myself, call me anything you want, but I will only identify myself by things that I can prove exist. I am not a four-year old that thinks simply because I call myself the King of Jupiter that I am.
I am not claiming any rights, I am just using substantiated facts to prove my point. No Palestine, no Palestinians. And whenever that date in the future is that Palestine comes into existence, then you can have Palestinians. Their cultural continuity is a hodge-podge of Egyptian and Jordanian and to a lesser extent Syrian. And I most certainly do deny the existence of Palestine based on the fact that the New York Times told me it doesn’t exist.
Palestinians supposedly come from the ancient, glorious land of Palestine, right? Well then why is there no mention of Palestinians in any news record prior to 1964? They were Arabs until then, and it took another decade until the term caught on.
Certainly there are no mention of Israelis before 1948, but then there was no Israel before 1948. “Jews” and “Arabs” go back thousands of years though. So until there is a proven fact of a Palestine, I will call them Arabs because culturally that’s how they are identified. I choose not to call them Muslims because that is insulting to the Christian Arabs. I feel no obligation to propogate the “Palestinian” myth.
Here’s a little brain teaser for you: Why would a people name themselves and their country when they wouldn’t be able to pronounce it in their native language? If you speak Arabic, you would know that there is no “P” sound in it. Even Arafat, the Father of Modern Palestine had to say “Balestinian.”
Here’s a hint: The British named the territory Palestine as an Anglican form of “Philistine.”
All nationalities are “invented notions”
Jews, its not a nation, my understanding is they are a group believe in Judaism, but this not can give them a nation status!
Same thing applicable for other religious groups and faiths around the worlds.
Salah, Judaism is not simply a matter of religious belief. Many people make the mistake of regarding Jews as “just a religion,” when in fact we also share a common culture, history and ethnic identification. Religion is only one of the dimensions of the Jewish nation (and not even a very important one for many Jews!)
Marc: There may not be a State of Palestine just yet, but there’s a Palestinian National Authority. And in any event, nationality doesn’t depend on territory. There was a Jewish nation even when there wasn’t a Judea.
Many people make the mistake of regarding Jews as “just a religion,” when in fact we also share a common culture, history and ethnic identification.
So I more interested what you mean by Jew Nation as such and how invented?
Did Jew Nation not all believe in Judaism or what?
Yes and there’s Sinn Fein, the Taliban, Tamil Tigers, Red Dawn, and a bunch of other provisional thugocracies. So what? That doesn’t make any of them them a nation. And I wouldn’t buy any Palestinian Government Bonds just yet. Hamas is quite a force to be reckoned with. Took ’em less than a day to blow a hole in the Egyptian border wall, obviating what little security could be expected. Pass the popcorn, Jon, cause this show’s just getting started.
According to the dictionary (another cited resource) a nation is generally predicated on having a “country” or “territory.” The Jewish territory (homeland?) was vanquished by the Romans in 70CE, and the indiginous population was scattered throughout Pax Romana. So yes, Jews are a nation whose lands were taken from them by an occupying army thousands of years ago. Then the Moors took it from the Romans, then the Christians from the Moors.. something like that. Then the world voted, and in a pang of conscience, returned the British territory of Palestine to Jewish control. They named it Israel. Fast fact: They almost called it “Judea” but changed it to Israel because “Judea” sounded too much like “Jew.” So much for the State of Israel’s religious intolerance…
Jonathan, is this “common culture” in your response to Salah the Ashkenazic or Sephardic commonality? If it is Ashkenazic, is it the Chassidic or Lithuanian or Hungarian or Polish commonality? If it is the Polish is it specifically the Galician Polish commonality? If it is Spehardic, would it be the Spanish, French, Moroccan, Persian or Syrian? Of course we can’t forget the Russian, English (from England) or German Jews, although they’re really lumped in with the Ashkenazi. What a blatantly egocentric, elitest, bigoted, narrow-minded thing to say! So any Jew who isn’t a Jew like you isn’t a Jew? Who the hell are you?
Salah, the correct answer to your question is yes, there is a Jewish nation and yes, Jews used to have a homeland, but they were exiled. Judaism is made up of millions of people whose varied heritages has been influenced by the countries that they settled in. And while the customs and practices are wildly diverse and even incompatible in some cases (Ashkenazic Jews can’t eat rice on Passover while Sephardic Jews can), they are united by adhering to the religious principles of Judaism.
Some enlightened people will call themselves “cultural” Jews, meaning they might only eat matzah on Passover and an apple dipped in honey on the Jewish new year. While those simple acts may be token representations of what it means to be Jewish, they are still rooted in commandments given to the Jews by God (Exodus 13:3,6), or in the case of the apple and honey, a religious custom that has a centuries-old historical tradition, regardless of what antireligious, agnostic meanings they try dilute their practices with.
And your point about Jews before Judea, Jon? Are you citing a Biblical source for that, perhaps Genesis 12:7?
Some enlightened people will call themselves “cultural” Jews, meaning they might only eat matzah on Passover and an apple dipped in honey on the Jewish new year
Salah:
What a fascinating conclusion! So Jews aren’t a nation because one group of them chooses to disregard a large portion of its practiced heritage? Go back and read what I wrote again.
Wait, let me make it easier for you: The Exiled Nation of Judea has absorbed cultural practices from the countries that have harbored them, just like Indonesian Muslims, Iranian Muslims, Iraqi Muslims and the Nation of Islam all have different religious practices based on cultural interpretations of Islam.
Draw whatever convenient conclusions you want.
Marc, it’s quite extraordinary the hateful lengths to which you’re prepared to go to deny the peoplehood of the Palestinians.
You write, Why would a people name themselves and their country when they wouldn’t be able to pronounce it in their native language? But of course they can! In Arabic the words are “Filasteen” (Palestine) and “Filasteeni” (Palestinian)…
And yes, those are cognates of the ancient word that’s rendered in English as Philistine– a word that gets quite despicably used as a negative stereotype to this day. (When we no longer speak of people “gypping” or “jewing” other people, or talk of “Indian givers” or someone “welshing” on his promise, etc…)
True, Arabic has no “P” sound, and Arabic speakers tend to render it as a “B” sound… Hence the names Boutros or Boulos (our Peter and Paul). And Palestinians talking about their nation in English sometimes say “Balestinian” because they honestly can’t say “Ps”s very easily. So what?
Why, though, do you try to use your half-baked understanding of these matters in a jeering, putdownish way to demean other people?
Personally, I think that’s your problem. But you have now expressed yourself very fully here on this matter (your private belief that– regardless of whatever anyone else says– “there is no such thing as a Palestinian people”.) So please don’t jam up my site with any further iterations of this point.
You might want to go back and re-read the first two (short) paras of ther JWN comments board mission statement/ comments policy in case you didn’t absorb what it says there on a first reading.
The Exiled Nation of Judea has absorbed cultural practices from the countries that have harbored them, just like Indonesian Muslims, Iranian Muslims, Iraqi Muslims and the Nation of Islam all have different religious practices based on cultural interpretations of Islam.
I think this is the struggle that most of you tried to give ligament for Jew Nation if fact all of you failed in this
Comparing Indonesian Muslims, Iranian Muslims, first you just denied the Plastein in regard of their homeland, Islam went to countries and nations already axsist and spread the religion and practices between them what ever nation is there is no conflict between Islam as religion and practise and the Nation of that country, but when believed in Islam you need to stop and leave all the culture and habits that oppose Islam practises, like slavery and other things, so there are changes in culture/Habits but depend what nation/Culture is that Islam went to.
So Judaism did same, in regard in the holy land as mentioned in Hebrew/Torah it
Ahmed wrote:
“Israel discriminates against its arab population.” in support of the idea that Israel is an “Apartheid State”.
Discrimination does not make apartheid. Israeli Arabs can go anywhere in Israel. They can live anywhere. The neighborhoods are not mixed but rather polka-dot the map. This is pretty tolerant for a nation at war. If Israel were not at war for 50 years it would be even more relaxed. Arabs don’t ride the back of the bus, they sit up front. It’s not as mixed as Europe: Different buses go to Arab neighborhoods than to Jewish ones.
If having a state religion makes Israel apartheid, what about Jordan and Saudi Arabia, where it is against the law for a citizen to be either a Jew or a Christian?
And Ahmed: the complaint about “Trading Gaza for nothing” is that the deal was not “Trading Gaza for Peace”. It’s not about trading for gold.
Marc/Helena
The thing that makes the idea of a Palestinian nation less legitimate is that it was created only for the purpose of being anti-Israel. The idea of the Palestinians as a distinct people or as a nation was virtually unknown before the 1960’s, when Egypt and Jordan “Gave” some of their territory to the PLO and let the battle continue that way. It was not invented by the Palestinian people. The word “Palestine” was and is the name of a region, like the Yukon, the Middle East and the Arctic, not the name of a country. It may become the name of a country. And yes the Arabs there have adopted the idea of being the nation of Palestine. But it’s still just an invention for the purpose of fighting Israel.
The reason for the fight is that the Arabs didn’t accept the Partition of “Palestine” in 1948, in 1967 or in 2000. The only reason there hasn’t been an Arab State in the West Bank is that the Arabs have insisted on fighting: “No peace, no negotiations, and no recognition” was the Arab slogan for many decades, and is only recently beginning to soften. Hamas still doesn’t accept the softening and who knows — they may be in charge of Gaza.
I wish I could believe the fight was about the “Rights of the Palestinians”, but the evidence shows that the “Rights” issue is just a stalking horse for Jew-hatred. The “Palestinians” had no rights when Jordan ran the West Bank and Egypt ran Gaza, and there was no “Movement”, no PLO, and no protest. The Arabs in many other states have no rights there is only recently a movement to grant rights. The main issue is that the Israelis are not Muslims. They are Jews.
Christiane
You wrote “..when to start with, it was not theirs ?”
This is sometimes called begging the question. Sometimes it’s called making a proof by assuming the answer. One of the questions under issue was exactly who had the rights to Gaza? How about Egypt?
You also wrote: “how can Israeli complain that they got nothing in exchange ?” Israel isn’t making that complaint. Some Israelis are making that complaint, to their government. The idea was to get peace. The current Gaza “Deal” doesn’t get peace. It is a permanent loss of territory in exchange for a temporary peace (a “Hudna”).
Christiane — are you for peace or are you in favor of continuing terror and warfare? Negotiations have stopped because of the Intifada. Israel has a policy of not negotiating under fire. The violence of the Intifada stopped the negotiations. And they are supposed to restart as soon as the PA has its elections.
You can only negotiate with someone who controls all the guns. Israel cannot be asked to accept a deal where the PA signs a peace treaty but Hamas and IJ keep on shooting. It won’t work. The PA/PLO won’t do that that, so there can’t be negotiations right now.
You wrote: “they restituted stolen land”. This is simply a dishonest comment. The Ottoman Empire fell, the British Mandate skipped out, and Egypt beat a strategic retreat. There was a war. Several of them. Exactly who was the land stolen from, the Ottomans? The British? Egypt?
I suppose you might not be dishonest, you might not know the history. Christiane — I guess you must believe that there was a war between Israel and Palestine and Israel conquered Palestinian territory, and kept it. Sort of like Alsace-Lorraine. This is not the history. Read a book. Read six.
When they say that they love death, but westerners love life, you should believe them.
When they say that they love death, but westerners love life, you should believe them.
Another Twisted and Mangling in the words
You try to be divisive between Christians and Islam now; this is typical from
the Arab slogan for many decades
Because they are invaded Arab land that the answer no surprise.
I tell you we don
I need to clear here that the land value and property prices sky rocketing in Iraq despite the security and powerless state which unusual in all the wars and situation we know around the world.
I think apart form that the value of Iraqi Dinar and the rate exchanges and who got control of Iraqi Note printing all these raise questions who is benefits from that.
Reported some property owners offered a good some for their house some refused to sale there were killed after few days!!!
This is same policy used by Israelis early days when they start their project
By the rivers of babylon
There we sat down
Ye-eah, we wept
When we remembered zion
By the rivers of babylon
There we sat down
Ye-eah, we wept
When we remembered zion
Amazing what our “experts” here let pass without comment!
Careful JES, or Helena might refer you to her posting guidelines!! Or crop your comment or insert her own derogatory paraphrase.
Try practicing the art of speaking across worldviews (Earth to Planet Salah.) Antisemites are people too, you know!
”I can expect to be called everything but a child of God by many in the Jewish community.
This stupid call “Antisemites” because if you know your origin and you really genuine Jewish bla bla bla
You’re right, salah. Your comments aren’t antisemitic, merely anti-jew! Apologies for any imprecision. btw thanks for reminding us (again!) that jews are an insidious race undeserving of nationhood. who are planning future terror attacks in the US (again!) as they conduct them in Iraq today(!!!!!)
keep those links coming salah you nut! helps to know who helena’s audience is.
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