AP is now reporting (based on US sources) that the death toll in the London bomb blasts is “at least 40”, and the number of injured more than 300.
This seems like a ghastly, Qaeda-orchestrated replay of the March 2004 Madrid bombings. I imagine that all of London is as hurt and shattered as the Madrilenos were at that time. I just spoke with my sister Diana, who lives in far-west London. She and her family are ok, but she sounded very, very sobered by what was unfolding.
I have numerous other friends and family in London to worry about, too. My niece Rachel is an emergency-room doc at the Royal London Hospital near Liverpool St. Station, which has been taking in many of the casualties. All power to her life-saving elbow in these hours.
So Qaeda (or whichever other actually terrorist group) has been busy organizing all this– not entirely unpredictable by the British authorities, on the day the G-8 summit opens in the UK?– while the British and US governments have been expending truly massive amounts of blood, treasure, and national-level attention on pursuing their wholly unjustified war in Iraq?
Talk about a wholly unnecessary and diversionary expenditure of national energies.
If they had not launched the war against Iraq, but had instead invested one-fourth as much time and finances in a smart policy aimed at (1) doing the solid police work of tracking down and incapacitating the Qaeda leadership, and (2) denying that leadership an operating base by engaging politically with the legitimate demands of potential Qaeda condoners… If the Bush and Blair administrations had done that, Qaeda could have been wiped off the map as an operating force, quite possibly as long ago as late 2002, or 2003.
Instead of which…
I guess it’s not really a time for recriminations now. But we should not forget that back in 2002– or even late 2001– a deliberate choice was made in Washington to invade Iraq, regardless of whether there was any solid link between Saddam’s regime and Al-Qaeda, or not.
I am also thinking, ghastly as things undoubtedly are for Londoners right now, at least they have functioning hospitals and a functioning emergency-response system that can reduce the human damage caused by these bomb blasts to an absolute minimum. Meanwhile, every week in Iraqi cities there are multiple bomb-blasts and other assaults that are comparably damaging– but then, because of the breakdown of the hospital system and of public order there, people who would have been saved in London’s hospitals end up dying because of a lack of adequate support and relief services there… Basic services that were present in Baghdad to a significant degree prior to the US invasion, but have been seriously degraded since then.
Well, we can talk about all this over the days ahead. For now, I send my empathy and human support to all the Londoners affected by these blasts.
61 thoughts on “Thoughts of London”
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Let me add my voice to yours, Helena.
Terrorism always assist the right wing, never the left.
As a communist, I condemn it.
Peace is the pre-condition for everything human.
Likewise, Helena. Good luck to your niece, as well as all other Londoners and all affected by this incredible crime.
My sympathy to the people who went through this experience first hand, and to those who lost loved ones in the bombings.
Dominic, what’s with that stupid “Terrorism always assist the right wing, never the left” comment? It’s not an appropriate time to play politicizing games. Why can’t you condemn this as a human being instead?
That has to be the most sane and balanced reaction to the events in London I have seen today. Thank you.
Inkan, I don’t understand you. Perhaps you don’t understand me, either.
I wrote “Peace is the pre-condition for everything human.” It means I condemn the bombings as a human being, in direct terms.
It means that there is no support from me as a communist, for terrorism. Terror is anti-democratic, anti-popular, and serves dictatorship and arbitrary compulsion.
I am more and more proud of the Iraqi communists who oppose the use of violence, even against the illegal occupation of their country by the USA, an occupation maintained by terroristic means.
You may think it is better to speak in generalities at a time like this. I disagree. All should stand and be counted, speaking for themselves as to why they oppose this rubbish.
It is interesting to note that the evil things done against London are also acts of trancendental stupidity. Nobody gains. Certainly not Islam.
The only results can be to cause westerners to have greater hatred of Muslims. And less respect for them.
I also have an idea that acts such as these create more anger than fear. If so, the perpetrators would better be called “Angrists” than Terrorists. It will be interesting to see how the British react: I predict more anger than fear.
I add my condemnation to terrorism and in particular the use of terrorism by Arab actors as a tool in the making and influencing foreign policy. All signs are that Britons are less prone than Spaniards to be shaken by these coward acts. My sympathies and admiration point today to London.
David
The only results can be to cause westerners to have greater hatred of Muslims. And less respect for them.- WarrenW
Only true for those who sterotype – that is, the stupid and ignorant people.
Certainly not true for me. The comment by WarrenW strikes me as a hateful and insensitive thing to say since Muslims were bombed and killed in London today, just like they were bombed and killed in Iraq and Afghanistan and the WTC.
And Palestine.
“I add my condemnation to terrorism and in particular the use of terrorism by Arab actors as a tool in the making and influencing foreign policy“.
What, other than naked racism, justifies this kind of ugly nonsense. What, other than naked racism makes terrorism by Arab actors more condemnable than terrorism by Jewish actors (Irgun, LEHI, Haganah, JDL, for example) or Christian American actors, or Tamil actors or Indian actors, or, or, or, or…?
“It is interesting to note that the evil things done against London are also acts of trancendental stupidity. Nobody gains. Certainly not Islam.”
sad but true…as in the previous Jihadist attacks on the backpackers in Bali, the schoolchildren in Beslan, the assassinated playwright in Holland, etc.
It is terrible and should be condemned without reservation, but it is also predictable, and things like this have been predicted, not only by the opponents of the Iraq war, but by state agencies like the CIA and MI5. Terrorism doesn’t fall from thin air. It is born and grows in environments like Iraq, like Palestine, like Chechnya, where we, the West and Russia, have created hell on earth for whole populations, where we have killed, maimed and humiliated innumerable human beings.
But that we don’t call terrorism, because murder is only called terrorism if the killing is done by small groups of individuals with simple weapons like explosives, instead of well organized armies with sophisticated weapons like airplaines, helicopters, tanks, artillery, rockets and state-of-the-art technology.
But we won’t learn. We never do. We won’t change course. We will go on creating hell on earth, and reelect people like Bush and Blair, or others like them. Even our protests have now been commercialised and tamed; they have been taken over by the likes of Paul McCartney, Bono, Geldof and Madonna, these billionaire Gods of the Entertainment Industry, friends and mates of the Bushes and the Blairs, who have turned compassion into yet another cheap, feel-good commodity for the masses to enjoy, without real consequences.
Susan:
Seeing Muslims kill other Muslims, as happened in London, will not generate world respect or love for Islam. Rather, the opposite.
You, Susan, as an individual, may love and respect Islam as much as you ever did. But in my estimation Islam has gone down another notch. This is in part because world Islamic leaders tend to NOT condemn this sort of thing. There are very few fatwas against the 9/11 attacks or al-Queda from mainstream Islamic clerics.
Inkan, are you still there? Looking at the contributions of our in-house right-wingers, WarreW and Hammurabi, can you not see how plesed they are? They are directly claiming that the London bombings will bring them a harvest of sectarian hatred against Muslims, and they are delighted.
Perhaps the radical left, including those of Helena Cobban’s ilk, will finally learn: Alligning themselves with radical Islamic fascists and terrorists simply because they share a hatred of the United States was a huge strategic error. Islam, as practiced yesterday in London, is clearly NOT a religion of peace, but a religion of submission, oppression, violence and fear. Everyone has grievances in the world. Many Muslims seem to believe that its okay to blow up innocent men, women and children on buses if one disagrees with some government policy. These thugs must be defeated, not justified. Helena, stop criticizing the democratic west, and instead use whatever influence you have in that part of the world to urge those people to come out of the 7th century and into modernity. Why can’t you leftists wake up and realize that far from being progressive, Islam is proving itself to be the most reactionary idealogy on the planet?
Perhaps the radical left, including those of Helena Cobban’s ilk, will finally learn: Alligning themselves with radical Islamic fascists and terrorists simply because they share a hatred of the United States was a huge strategic error. Islam, as practiced yesterday in London, is clearly NOT a religion of peace, but a religion of submission, oppression, violence and fear. Everyone has grievances in the world. Many Muslims seem to believe that its okay to blow up innocent men, women and children on buses if one disagrees with some government policy. These thugs must be defeated, not justified. Helena, stop criticizing the democratic west, and instead use whatever influence you have in the Muslim world and urge those people to come out of the 7th century and into modernity. Why can’t you leftists wake up and realize that far from being progressive, Islam is proving itself to be the most reactionary idealogy on the planet?
Richard Powell, yours is the voice of reaction. You echo Tony Blair who wants to tell us, in the language of Kipling, the “we” are the civilised nations and “they” are barbarians.
Helena Cobban is a Quaker. Since when has that been “radical left”?
If the “west” was democratic, it wuold not have gone to war. London in particular was opposed to the war and was the site of the biggest-ever demonstration against war in February, 2003.
Your kind of sneering is despicable at this time.
Dominic, I don’t believe being anti-democratic, anti-popular, and serving dictatorship and arbitrary compulsion is exclusively right wing. The extremists of both wings are anti-democratic and willing to embrace murder. Saying terrorism can only benefit right wingers is simple-minded, and I felt it was sleazy. It was taking advantage of this tragedy to prop yourself up. That’s why I objected, though this thread should be more about solidarity with the victims. And I don’t see any “pleasure” in WarrenW’s or Hammurabi’s posts. WarrenW though should condemn more soundly anyone who actually does use this incident to show disrespect for Islam. Human nature or not, there’s no excuse for that.
I should’ve included this in the first post.
Richard Powell’s post is not even worth consideration. I don’t believe Helena has alligned herself with al-Qaeda…so his “alligning themselves” comment is outright slanderous. “Islam” was not practiced in any way, shape or form in yesterday’s act and Richard’s insult merits no respect.
Inkan, you are disingenuous. You know that the Twin Towers demolition was used as the pretext for two wars, one in Afghanistan and one in Iraq.
You want to quibble about whether right-wing means anti-democratic, anti-popular, and serving dictatorship and arbitrary compulsion or not. Fine. Let’s make a pact never to use the words “left” or “right” in a political context ever again.
Now, do you realise what I am saying? I am saying that whether the London operation was a psy-op or whether it was carried out by Middle-Eastern Muslims or by Irish Catholics or by London’s own anarchists, what matters is that the anti-democratic, anti-popular forces and the practitioners of dictatorship and arbitrary compulsion do not reap political rewards from it, as they will certainly try to do.
As good a book as any about terrorism and about London is Josef Conrad’s “The Secret Agent”, written nearly a century ago. I recommend it.
From the London blogger “Lenin’s Tomb”:
“We know what the Prime Minister’s interpretation was – it was a deliberate attempt to undermine the ersatz credibility he might receive from any minute move toward discharging the debt our governments owe to Africa. Then again, one could interpret it as retroactively providing a casus belli. Aussie PM John Howard thinks that it’s an excellent reason to keep troops in Iraq . And the BBC are taking the opportunity to co-opt Londoners for the Olympics – “we were all overjoyed” by winning the Olympics, apparently. News for them: I wasn’t.
“Ken Livingston’s view, in an admirable speech, was that this was not an attack on the leaders, the warmongers or the G8, but on ordinary, working class Londoners going about their day – and that it would never succeed.
“The interpretation of Labour Against the War, Socialist Worker, Mike Marqusee and George Galloway was that this is the catastrophic blow-back from Blair’s foreign policy, that Londoners are paying the price for a policy that they didn’t implement and by and large didn’t even support. The difference between this and all previous interpretations, in my view, is that it is manifestly , obviously , the case – which is exactly why the point is being strenuously avoided by most commentators. Charles Clarke insisted on television last night, against his own intelligence services, that this had nothing to do with it. The terrorists were opposed to our freedom, our parliamentary democracy etc etc. How many times do we have to be insulted with this nonsense? Naturally, some feel entitled to appropriate the outrage and grief to browbeat anyone who says otherwise: following Galloway’s speech in parliament yesterday, Adam Ingram accused him of having dipped his poisonous tongue in blood: a turn of phrase worthy of Galloway himself, if it weren’t deployed by a despicable warmonger with the blood of 100,000 people dripping from his tongue.”
Dominic:
I am not delighted. I can not even say ‘I told you so’. I find the ‘trancendental stupidity’ of the violence against London deplorable but also interesting.
It is interesting because I used to believe that in analyzing world events, one should follow the trail of ‘Who benefits?’ I tried that with the 9/11 attacks and again with the 7/7 attacks on London and came up empty.
Inkan1969:
Perhaps I should criticize those who now disrespect Islam, perhaps not. First I would have to decide whether the attacks were “Truly Islamic”. But that is for Muslim spiritual leaders to decide, not me. We’ll see if they issue fatwas against the killers. I suspect not.
But we can decide to condemn and disrespect the criminal Islamist movement that (apparently) committed the violence. And I can also disrespect that movement for being foolish and self-destructive.
Iraqi blowback?
In the larger sense, the whole jihad started well before Britain joined the war to topple Saddam Hussein, so the ultimate cause of the crimes against London are not related to Britains Iraqi presence.
In the narrower sense, the attacks may well have been intended to punish and deter Britain for it’s role in Iraq. History argues that the attacks will have no such effect. Neither Hitler nor the IRA were able to dent the Brits.
“History argues that the attacks will have no such effect. Neither Hitler nor the IRA were able to dent the Brits.”
WarrenW is quite wrong about this. The British people are indeed resistant, but the IRA bombing campaign in London was successful, in that the present government was quite willing to hand large advantages to Sinn Fein in a future power-sharing administration in Northern Ireland. More power than the Catholic proportion of the population merited. However, then the old terrorists of the IRA got themselves mixed up in that bank robbery, and discredited themselves.
Being resistant is no use when the strategy is wrong, when the wrong plan is coming out of Downing Street. We had that with the Cod War in the 1970s (which we lost), and it will be the same with Iraq.
Dominic, I quibbled over that point only because you insisted on it.
WarrenW, what “perhaps not”? You shouldn’t perhaps, you definitely should, along with the rest of us.
Those of you interested in a serious, well-reasoned effort to think about the violence of terrorism and how to respond to it should go read John McGowan’s essay on the rhetorics of violence at Michael Berube’s website.
“Looking at the contributions of our in-house right-wingers, WarreW and Hammurabi, can you not see how pleased they are?”
speaking only for myself…kindly reread my post…I made it clear that I found the pattern of Jihadist nihilist acts “SAD”…Bali, for example, is the closest I ever found to Paradise on Earth, the massacre of the Beslan children was particularly abhorrent to me because I adore kids, the assassination of the Dutch playwright offended my strong belief in artistic freedom of expression.
p.s., “right winger”?…I voted twice for Clinton.
Wouldn’t it be far easier too improve lives and reduce deaths in Iraq than to reduce the risk of isolated maniacs occasionally letting off lethal bombs in world cities from time to time? Mass murderers Will always have their mad reason; be it political, religious or any other. “Please to remember, the 5th of November” as Londoners sometimes sing around the Guy Fawkes day bonfires. At least Guy Fawkes bomb hundreds of years ago targeted leadership and not ordinary people.
If we are worried about democracy, about the ability of innocent people to live happy productive lives, then there is far more scope for achievement simply by doing less harm every day in Iraq. We just have to change the basis, the make up and leadership of the occupation into those of an international peace-keeping effort and see that all the “rebuilding” money actually restores their basic amenities before a pull out at a date agreed with a legitimate Iraqi government. Would that breed more or less terrorists around the world? On the other hand, if Iraq were somehow erased from the map of history tomorrow, this probably would do nothing at all to reduce even the short term threat of future ghastly and deranged attacks like these just seen in London.
No-one I’ve read here is debating if the London atrocities are justified or rational. No-one is saying this is more than a fairly isolated incident. British security is already about as tight as it can be in peacetime. So why then do we still waste so much time and effort attributing blame for this to one or another group instead of finding answers together for the sources of daily tragedy across the world, when so much could be done? Really, on 7 July we just witnessed the senseless tragic murder of another 50 or so innocent people in a slightly novel location. Many parts of the world see such horrors happen farm more regularly.
How powerful and well intentioned will the G8 leaders show themselves to be, after their summit, about the wars, the poverty and the threat of pollution that are an infinitely clearer and more present danger to so many if not all of us? And what will we the people put up with? How easily are we distracted?
Warren unknowingly wrote “This is in part because world Islamic leaders tend to NOT condemn this sort of thing. There are very few fatwas against the 9/11 attacks or al-Queda from mainstream Islamic clerics.”
This is pure propaganda. Juan Cole has a whole list of links leading to such condemnation. Scroll down to see it.
it’s amusing that if you oppose brutal dictatorships by supporting the Iraqis against Saddam, the Kosovans against Milosevic, the Ukrainians against Kuchma, the Uzbeks against Karimov, etc., you are labeled a “right winger” here.
The New York Times has diagnosed the problem in Britain: too much tolerance, liberty and respect for human rights. This article leads off with the incredible statement that “Britain [has] become a breeding ground for hate.” Their “deep tradition of civil liberties and protection of political activists has made the country a safe haven for terrorists.” Too much free speech, that’s what caused the bombings, according to the NYT. It couldn’t have anything to do with Britain’s participation in the illegal invasion and brutal occupation of Iraq. OK then, all they need to do is eliminate civil liberties, and life will return to normal.
People of the United Kingdom: Do not listen to this crap. Do not follow our example.
Great comment altogether, Kiwi. Thanks. Especially this:
If we are worried about democracy, about the ability of innocent people to live happy productive lives, then there is far more scope for achievement simply by doing less harm every day in Iraq.
John C.:
The Arabs press is saying the same about London. Here is just one quote. Let me know if you need more.
Tariq Al-Humayd, editor-in-chief of the London daily Al-Sharq Al-Awsat, said that the incitement to Jihad in London had been visible but was never stopped: “In London, we have seen, and are seeing, the money being collected in the streets, and the conventions under various titles, and everyone is inciting to Jihad in our Arab countries and cursing the land of unbelief in which they live. When you express amazement [at this], they tell you that this is freedom. Has freedom no responsibility? No one answers.
“The incitement in London could have been read and seen, all in the name of freedom. Today, London will do a new accounting. It will open the files and reread them, as have the countries that were previously arrogant and that said that they were distant from the terrorism. The view of some of the countries is that as long as bombs aren’t exploding and not a single shot is fired, they are safe from the evil of terrorism…
“In London, they talk of the lack of freedom in the Arab world, of the repression, and of the security tension in the Arab countries… But when you tell them, Stop being so tolerant of the incitement that comes from your country, from your skies, and from your Internet, and when you tell them that anyone who denies my freedom and declares me to be an apostate, [i.e. the Islamists] will, due to this freedom, deny your freedom in the future
When citing opinion expressed by an editor in chief of a newspaper, any newspaper, one has to identify the stance of that particular editor and the newspaper he/she represnts. Al-Aharq Al-Awsat (Arabic for Middle East) is a Saudi owned and editorially-controlled newspaper which directly reflects the view of the Saudi Royal Family. It is no wonder that it advocates the views expressed by the editor in chief because London is a key center of opposition (by expat Saudi citizens) to the Royal Family. Saudi Arabia is very keen to silence this opposition hence this diatribe. May I also note that Jihad Alkhazen, the editor in chief of Al-Hayat (which is also Saudi owned and controlled ) has called for draconian security measures to be instigated by the British government (against of course the brown colored citzens of the country). He shamefully stated in a recent editorial that security needs trump individual freedoms. Of course, since his will not be affected (he may change his mind if he were to be thrown in a prison without charges being filed). As to Amir Taheri, he is a neocon camp follower, the proverbial native agent. Let us call spades by their name.
A more fundamental point are opinions such as expressed in these editorials and a recent one in NYT by Thomas Freidman (opnions which have been in wide circulation since 9/11) that the problem is that of a criminal minority hijacking the faith of a silent majority and that the solution accordingly is for the majority to reclaim its religion. This is only partially true and as such is a highly deceptive proposition. It absolves western powers of their criminal responsibility in fostering Jihadist in the eighties and in pursuing imperialist policies in the middle east for several decades now, policies that have laid ruin to whole countries and surrendered others to the rule of pliant despots. Condemnation of the latest atrocity of the day, London in this case, is absolutely necessary but not sufficient. The problem has become far too serious for ritualistic condemnations to be parroted by Muslims or others. Respect for the dead, the miamed and the tortured calls for more than that. A more cogent critque of the violence perpetrated by jihadist AND western powers has to be undertaken before it sweeps us all into a deeper abyss than the one we are already in.
You people just don’t get it– London was just bombed, innocent people killed indiscriminately by muslims and all you can do is try to blame everyone else except the perpretrators of this and the other daily slayings occurring in Kashmir, the Phillipines, Israel, the Sudan, Kosovo. Only Muslims kill innocent children, shooting them in the backs as they try to escape a school in Chechnya…
[snip… The rest of this blatantly Islamophobic comment has been cut. Commenters are reminded of the guidelines for posting comments here. Islamophobia or any other kind of hate-speech falls far outside the definition of “gentle and courteous.”]
I’m a Londoner and its sad that everyone outside this most amazing and diverse of places seems to have lost their heads in a way that much of London has not. This place is home to people of all colours and creeds, and speakers of hundreds of languages. We are saddened by Thursday’s events, but on the whole we have not resorted to hysteria, anger or terror – people want justice, not retribution. And Bush’s crusade gets very short shrift amongst those I know.
Very sensible of you all, Dave. Unfortunately, the United States lost its collective head some time ago, and who knows when – if ever – it will find it.
Of course Dave you Londoners were cool and oblivious. So far the products of London’s muslim radicals blew elsewhere, like Mousawi, Richard Reid, Daniel Pearl, Mike’s Cafe, and on. Even the French have been asking for years to get your act together.
The justice system ain’t the place to fight terrorism, Al Qaeda is a state of mind as some British commentator said on Friday. Now even the Saudi backed Arab press is agreeing, as tc clarifies.
I admire your stoicism David and wish you would address the issue for everybody’s benefit.
David
As you say, David, Al Qaeda is a state of mind – as is “terror.” We can thank our Dear Leader for proving to the world that military force is an utterly ineffective way to overcome a state of mind. Of course, some people’s state of mind is such that they will never absorb the lesson.
I’m suffering a little David-confusion here. I realize everyone’s free to don the name of his/her choice here but for the sake of ease of reading maybe the davids could differentiate themselves? (I have on occasion found the Warrens– with and without the W– to be confusing enough… )
By the way, latest David, when you write The justice system ain’t the place to fight terrorism I wonder what you mean?
The other day the Wall Street Journal published an in-depth front page article on the alienation, escalating unemployment and disinterest in assimilation of the third generation of North Africans living in France…Muslims already represent 10% of French citizens and their population growth far exceeds nativists…Most of them, of course, represent no threat to anyone but an alarming number of those 19-24 males are reportedly turning to extremist Islamic influences. The article was prepared before the London bombings, let alone the revelation that they appear to be suicide bombings by British citizens. (I don’t have internet subscriber status to the Journal so I can’t post the link.)
The incubation of 9/11 in Hamburg, the assasination of a Dutch filmmaker, the Madrid and London bombings may be percursors of an alarming situation in Europe…one in which the greatest price will be paid by European Muslims in the backlash, liberal institutions by the rise of anti-immigrant political parties and prized civil liberties in general.
Voila…I found another source for the link:
http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/05192/536250.stm
Hammurabi, you have used the word “alarming” twice. What are you suggesting? A US invasion of Europe, perhaps?
I’m sure you are white. Does that mean I should be alarmed that you might be another Timothy McVeigh?
19-24 males of all kinds are attracted to extreme influence. Should we lock them all up for those five years?
You are childish, man.
if you read the linked article and my post, you would clearly see that I have not put forward any solutions to Europe’s demographic time bomb…only suggested some likely byproducts like a backlash against an overwhelmingly nonthreatening EuroMuslim population (which might lead to a spiral of increased violence by unemployed, culturally alienated youth), the rise of cynical anti-immigrant politicians to exploit public fears and the threat to treasured civil liberties…what exactly led you to conclude that I was being “childish”?
“Demographic time bomb”?
You ARE childish.
You write like a stupid tabloid.
Who are you trying to kid?
Helena,
I am the good old David, and Dave is the British poster. What I meant with my comment is that the criminal justice system is about somehow approximating justice through post facto punishment, but it has nothing to do with prevention, and at least in the US there are no assurances that anybody can deliver prvention, just redress once a crime is committed. Terrorism as a pathology, a disease, a state of mind, or even just the weapon of my weak adversary are a complete different matter. People have their opinions about its elimination but it is certainly not within the crimininal justice system. What redress can the courst provide for the London victims? What punishment exists for suicidal attacks? Short of expanding the punishment to their families (which is the norm in their culture), very little.
BTW Dave, the perps were indeed made in the UK. You may be proud of your pluralism, but obviously there are whole communities in London that ain’t so happy and feel mistreated enough to blow themselves up at age 18.
David
David, I’m sure the victims’ families prefer to have the crime solved as opposed to unsolved like the Twin Towers demolition.
Four particular guys from Leeds (not London) does not generalise into a national threat.
Collective punishment is an American thing, as in Fallujah. Don’t project it on to Muslims, please.
I am very sad to hear that Thursday’s bombers are believed to be British Muslims from the Leeds area (given the nature of the targets, public and relatively neutral spaces, I thought it very unlikely they would be Londoners, but it still hurts that they were born in the UK).
In my previous post I did not mean to imply that I believe that London or the UK is some kind of multi-cultural utopia – it is obviously not. There are some problems with racism, and these have been exacerbated by Blair’s support for Bush’s policies towards the Middle East. Many in the Muslim community also feel unfairly targeted by anti-terror measures introduced since September 11th 2001. However, 99% of people, 99% of the time just try to get on with each other as best they can, and respect differences.
As someone with Muslim family and friends the rhetoric about British Muslims being some kind of a new threat is outrageous, if not outright racist. British Muslims were amongst the victims of these bombings, and across the country they have expressed outrage and sympathy. I agree with Dominic that four guys does not generalise into a ‘national threat’.
I find it sinister that the UK is being attacked by some elements of the US press for being too tolerant and free. Firstly, this is a slight caricature (we hold a small number of terror suspects under house arrest, and have very robust (draconian?) anti-terror legislation). Secondly, I think most of my fellow Brits would agree when I say we are rightly proud of our values and are unwilling to relinquish them under pressure from anyone – terrorists or Americans.
No Dominic, family revenge as in deriving justice from hurting the family of the offender, is very much Arabic. Do your homework.
David
I don’t think I will be reading the hate literature and colonial stereotyping that you no doubt have in mind.
If it comes to literature on family feuding I would rather read Huckleberry Finn, by Mark Twain.
Dave, four guys? Where have you been?
The family, friends, neighbors and community of the perps are going through the usual choreographed routine:
– cannot be muslims
– maybe it was another Mc Veigh
– can’t believe it was one of our youth
– blame the US, the mossad, the martians
– oh well, it was an isolated incident
This is an industry, these folks went to Pakistan and came back ready for martyrdom. UK born and all.
Until you stop your denial and convince the muslim moderates to fight to save their faith, nothing will change. It is a transparent attempt to divide the West by punishing whoever has a foreign policy to their dislike and counting on the public’s pavlovian response of blaming said foreign policy rather than the perps. You have the right to have any foreign policy you please without your subways blowing up or getting exposed to ricin.
I cannot get over the fact that you believe that this is the result of four people. And BTW, this started way before 9/11, and before Iraq.
David
“A transparent attempt to divide the West” David? You’re frantic, aren’t you?
You can see that the police are going to solve this one and make it truly transparent. Then you are not going to have sufficient unknowns in the picture to be able to hang your paranoia on.
I suggest you leave it alone now. Keep your spin to yourself, or at least on your side of the Atalantic, please.
“is very much Arabic. Do your homework.”
David can you stop your clams and comments against Arab and Islam, do you had a problem? We would like to know?
Salah,
It seems like three are Pakistani, one Jamaican, and the bio-chemist is Egyptian. Oh, Egypt, the muslim brotherhood birthplace, the Egyptian jails where these characters were tortured, where they bonded, and wrote the ideology that originates all this Al-Qaeda crap. A product of Egypt, one of the few contributions of Egypt since the pyramids were built.
David
Dominic,
One islamic attack on London causes the most victims in London since WWII. Half as many victims as three decades of IRA terrorism. Is that paranoia. Did I make up the ricin cell caught in London (Algerian Arabs as I recall with support from Ansar-al-Islam in Iraq Mr. Salah).
Dominic, talk is cheap, time to place your bet on where the investigation leads, I bet Pakistan, Egypt, Saudi Arabia and Iran. Place yours and chose what you want from the US, I’ll ship it.
David
Talk is indeed cheap, David. How much do you know about clandestine organisation? From what you write it appears you know nothing.
Let me advise you again: read Josef Conrad’s “The Secret Agent”. There is nothing like the picture you are trying to cook up. The picture of this thing as banal, smelly and disgusting is the right picture. The picture of four sad, stupid boys from Leeds is the true picture. I know it doesn’t suit your purposes, but frankly, my dear, I don’t give a damn about your purposes.
Egypt, the muslim brotherhood birthplace,
David, I thing you’r not right in this, this wrong.
This party originally created and funded by CIA in Iran before or after Baghdad Alias (حلف بغداد اعتقد بمقدورك قراءة العربية دفيد); the goal was to pass the western ideology through this religious party in name.
This party then extended to Baghdad Cairo and other countries.
For years this party band by Jamal Abdul Nasser in Egypt, in Iraq band also and Saudis attracted there members there.
But some how this party lost CIA interest.
Do your work next time David
Well Dominic, today they found explosive traces in the Egyptian professor bathtub. How much is your wager? Common, have some guts to back your bravado up with a friendly bet.
David
Salah,
I know they taught you in grade school that the CIA is behind everything that stinks in the Arab world. The stench is so big nowadays that it would be flattering for my tax dollars to have accomplished so much. I agree with you that Iran is behind much of the carnage in Iraq today, democratic elections or not.
David
“I know they taught you in grade school that the CIA is behind everything that stinks in the Arab world.”
Again David you
Here is what we are up against. I rest my case:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4702107.stm
Islamic cleric Omar Bakri Mohammed does not believe the London bombers were Muslims, he has told BBC News.
The UK-based Syrian-born preacher said there was no evidence four young Muslim men filmed at a station prior to the attacks were responsible for the bombs.
He condemned “any killing of innocent people here and abroad” but said he would never co-operate with police.
The cleric is facing demands for his deportation after making comments partly blaming Britain for the bombs.
“blaming Britain for the bombs.”
London mayor,
“If at the end of the First World War we had done what we promised the Arabs, which was to let them be free and have their own governments, and kept out of Arab affairs, and just bought their oil, rather than feeling we had to control the flow of oil, I suspect this wouldn’t have arisen,” he said.
London mayor criticizes western Middle East policy
http://english.people.com.cn/200507/21/eng20050721_197404.html